The One Project, Seattle, This February

[Gregory Matthews]

Green asked:

 

Quote

Your question is actually a temptation to violate the Matthew 7:1 principle.  There is a difference between knowing them by their fruits, and judging them.  I had far rather address their theology than their persons.  Would you be content to leave it at that?

No.  My question was fair.  Yes, you are correct.  The Matthews 7:1 principle tells us that we could not judge people.  But, it clearly allows us to judge their theology.  But, you have done much more than judge their theology.

Green also said:

 

Quote

I am against, however, people who have a deliberate agenda to lead people astray from God's saving truth.  God will take care of His people, but His people must do their part to warn others of the deceptions to which they are being exposed.

In the above quote, you made a generalized statement telling us that people had a deliberate agenda to lead people astray from God's saving truth.   That statement does not address theology. Rather, it is a non-specific statement that addresses intent and/or motive.  While it does not name individuals, it appears to me to be a violation of the Matthews 7:1 principle.

In any case, since you raised the issue, in a thread that has discussed The One Project, I immediately asked the following:

Tell us who spoke at the Seattle Conference who was attempting to lead people astray from God's saving truth.

Please tell us who was not a SDA and attempting to lead people astray.

My question was fair.  It was appropriate due to the post you made that addressed intent.  Why?  For one reason, in asking you to name people it allows us to determine for ourselves the facts, and if we believe you are wrong to challenge you on your position.

I may disagree with your analysis of the theology of TOP leaders.  But, you have a right to advocate for your position.  Your doing so is not a violation of the Matthews 7:1 principle.

But, when you pass beyond the boundary of theological belief and  begin to discuss intent, motive and other such, you have opened the door to being questioned on such.

It is not fair for you to make generalized allegations of people who have a deliberate attempt to lead people astray and then not allow us to challenge you by not naming names.

When you bring a subject into the discussion, expect people to take the bait and respond with further question and discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom Wetmore]

Seems strange to be too critical of Alex's failed attempt to evangelize this group that eventually continued worshipping as Christians on Sunday.  Is that really all that different than the far more typical evangelism failure of baptizing thousands that eventually drift away from the church?  The "success" rate of actually retaining and keeping people fully active in the Church for the long term is shockingly low.  Should we fire the pastors and evangelists that go into an area and work hard for years without any baptisms even?  

[JoeMo]

Jackson,

I read the Advindicate article.  I wasn't at the Seattle event; the only TOP event I have had the privilege of attending was a 1:1 in Boulder, CO last summer.  Yes, people spoke of generic "change"; but I inferred that "change" simply meant opening our minds to more than we have been spoon-fed our entire lives as SDA's - to look for the good in all Christian faiths and people.  Believe it or not, we SDAs can actually learn stuff about practical Christianity from other denominations!

That being said, the event I attended felt very "Adventist" - nothing to "out there".  I have attended much more exuberant and "new theology" events at non-Adventist Charismatic gatherings.

[CoAspen]

Jackson,

The article is a perfect example  of the need for change. The author had preconceived notions and ideas. They viewed everything through their preconceived conditions for 'rightness'. It was very critical of everything even to the point of putting a negative spin on proceedings. But of course, that is the goal of Advindicate when it comes to the church.

They(advin) are firmly in the camp of 'rooting out evil' rather than 'growing the good' such as the  group they were complaining about.

The children of Israel choose to spend another 40 years of wandering in the dessert rather than make a change and enter the promised land. Their minds were very afraid, no real trust in God. Are we to remain that way today, afraid of all shadows or really trusting God to guide us?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

2 minutes ago, jackson said:

John says,   And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 1 John 2:3-5

 

Scripture is telling us that without obedience to the commandments of God, one's "relationship' with Him is nothing but complete self-deception. Furthermore, such disobedience will keep you out of Heaven.

 

Jackson, isn't John referring to looking at one's own relationship with God, rather than using it as a measure for anyone else's relationship with God?  We aren't privy to the particulars of anyone else's relationship with God.

[JoeMo]

24 minutes ago, jackson said:

Scripture and common sense tell us that you cannot separate a "relationship" with Christ from obedience to His commandments. The principal evidence that one has a sincere"relationship " with Jesus is that you keep His commandments.

I more or less agree with you here, Jackson.  But what comes first - the relationship or the obedience?  I propose that without the relationship, the proper motivation for obedience doesn't exist.  When you are in a healthy relationship, you are more motivated to obey because you enjoy the other person's companionship and support - you "naturally" want to please then to enhance the relationship.  Obedience without (or before) relationship amounts to nothing more than compliance with the terms of a contract; and one becomes susceptible to feeling "entitled" to salvation because of their excellent compliance with the Law rather than desiring closer companionship with Jesus.  In the long term, both relationship and obedience are desired; but for the times that our obedience is less than perfect, Jesus' blood covers us.  When we reach the point that we think we obey so well that we don't need grace and forgiveness any more, we cut ourselves off from grace and are entirely under the Law.  My relationship empowers and motivates me to obey rather than the other way around.  The more I get to know Jesus, the more I want to be like Him, please Him, and get to know Him even better.  To quote a popular Christian song (referring to Jesus):

It's not because of who I am, it's because of what You've done!

It's not because of what I've done, its because of Who You are!

[LifeHiscost]

On 2/22/2016 at 7:52 PM, Green Cochoa said:

Who says we need the One Project?  Furthermore, who says we need to listen to non-Adventist speakers to find more truth?  Do we not have the Bible and Ellen White?  Does God need for His people to learn in Babylon today?  If so, why are they called to leave it?  "Come out of her, my people, and be separate" we are told.  Does this apply to us?  (See 2 Cor. 6:17; Rev. 18:4.)

The play and counter play of present day society speaks clearly to the subject of being deceived and deceiving, making the study of the Scripture of paramount importance. It would appear this principle established by the Word can be ignored only at the peril of our own future.

6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon! Let every man save his life! Let not destruction come upon you through her [punishment for] sin and guilt. For it is the time of the Lord’s vengeance; He will render to her a recompense.....Jeremiah 51

    

Top Definition

Babylon

Used to indicate a strong and powerful, yet corrupted and immoral place. A city in bible propecy. Some believe it may be the future fate of the United States. Prophecies:

(Revelation 14:8) A second Angel followed, calling out, "Ruined, ruined, Great Babylon ruined! She made all the nations drunk on the wine of her whoring!"

(Revelation 16:19) The Great City split three ways, the cities of the nations toppled to ruin. Great Babylon had to drink the wine of God's raging anger--God remembered to give her the cup!

(Revelation 17:5) A riddle-name was branded on her forehead: GREAT BABYLON, MOTHER OF WHORES AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

(Revelation 18:2) his voice thunderous: Ruined, ruined, Great Babylon, ruined! A ghost town for demons is all that's left! A garrison of carrion spirits, garrison of loathsome, carrion birds.

(Revelation 18:10) They'll keep their distance for fear they'll get burned, and they'll cry their lament: Doom, doom, the great city doomed! City of Babylon, strong city! In one hour it's over, your judgment come!       

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

Jackson, Let's not forget:

"if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.  Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.  The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.  You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out..."(Deut. 28:15-67).

That is one of my favorites.

All I can say is that I don't believe the way you do.  Good luck on your path to trying to earn your salvation.  I'm gonna trust that Jesus did a good enough job on the cross to save me; and work together with Him to incorporate the Family Values.  He has promised to forgive my sin and cleanse me from my unrighteousness if I just confess and believe.  He who began a good work in me will be faithful to complete it.  All I have to do is cooperate.

[LifeHiscost]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Jackson, Let's not forget:

"if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.  Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.  The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.  You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out..."(Deut. 28:15-67).

That is one of my favorites.

All I can say is that I don't believe the way you do.  Good luck on your path to trying to earn your salvation.  I'm gonna trust that Jesus did a good enough job on the cross to save me; and work together with Him to incorporate the Family Values.  He has promised to forgive my sin and cleanse me from my unrighteousness if I just confess and believe.  He who began a good work in me will be faithful to complete it.  All I have to do is cooperate.

How does one fit themself into this counsel of the Word in the new testament, counsel given by  after Jesus said, "It is finished!"?

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him....1 John 2

 

And from the Spirit of Prophecy;

 

{quote]   As the will of man co-operates with the will of God, it becomes omnipotent. Whatever is to be done at His command, may be accomplished in His strength. All His biddings are enablings.—Christ’s Object Lessons, 333. {ChS 258.6}.

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

22 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him....

As long as we're proof-texting, how does what you posted above jive with:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8)

[CoAspen]

I just  love text splatter........how many denominations do we have useing the same book?

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, CoAspen said:

I just  love text splatter........how many denominations do we have useing the same book?

I'd guess around 53, 0000

[CoAspen]

There is something  good about 'proof texting', when considering all the different beliefs. It shows us that a string of words has limited meaning w/o the full context of the subject mater. That takes a little more studying, ie, time in history, culture, word meanings of the times, etc. 

Maybe that is what Bible Study is all about?

[LifeHiscost]

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

As long as we're proof-texting, how does what you posted above jive with:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1John 1:8)

 

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

 

I see no problem with accepting both texts. Especially when taking into consideration this text.

6For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. ....Isaiah 64

Anyone's only hope is to confess the Truth, receive the cleansing of Jesus' blood, turn away from unrighteousness and accept God's promises.

  Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God’s word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man’s obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ’s righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help.

{AA 532.1}

  [/quote].

God is Love!~Jesus saves!       

 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, jackson said:

I really don't understand why you would say "my thinking" i gave you quotes from Jesus, Paul Peter and John. Your disagreement is with them, not me.

I could say the same thing to you.  The conclusion of the matter is that we must agree to disagree. I'm 66 years old; and I spent many years trudging the path of Trying To Please God on my way Being All I Could Be.  I spent most of my time frustrated and self-loathing, wallowing in guilt and self-centeredness thinking about what a sinner I was and how I'd better get my act together if I don't want to be roasted in the lake of fire.  I wavered between being angry at God for teaching me all this stuff (making me "responsible"); and being afraid that He was angry with me.  It wasn't working out well.

When I turned around and started down the path of Trusting God on my way to Overcoming Sin Together With Jesus, I actually started on the path to victory - not instantly over everything; but through a process led by the Spirit of addressing one thing at a time.  He's still working on me; but we work together.  Instead of focusing about how wicked I was, I started focusing on how wonderful, loving, and patient God is; and it gets hard to stop thinking about it once you start.

I've had this type of discussion with others here for several years; and the issue is never resolved.  Good luck on your path to salvation.  I would suggest that if you don't like TOP, don't go to their gatherings.  As for me, I was blessed at the one I attended; and given the opportunity I will attend another.

Blessings and adios,

JoeMo

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Green, I really think you are very, very sincere in your comments.  But I think you are wrong in your estimation of JoeMo.  I don't see him as saying that keeping God's commandments are unnecessary.  I think he is saying that he has learned not to obsess over the letter of the law, and is letting the Holy Spirit convict him of what issues he needs to work on, and is letting the HS help him in that work.

Obedience out of fear might make for a sinless life, but that life would be akin to that of a slave constantly trying to avoid the whip of the plantation master.  That's no life.  

Instead of worrying how to prevent God from being angry with us, isn't it better to think of how to make God happy?  Yes, He wants us to be obedient, but it's primarily because He knows it will make us happy too, in the long run.  He doesn't want us to be obedient simply to keep us from hellfire and damnation.  

But that's just my perception and opinion..

[JoeMo]

Jackson,

I, like Pam, believe you are sincere and passionate about what you believe.  That is a good thing.  All I can say is that I spent decades in the place where you are now, just as sincere and passionate as you are.  By my experience, coming at my faith from that point of view, I never felt loved and accepted by Jesus.  So I just surrendered.  It didn't "surrender it all", I just surrendered - period.  I gave up.  I told Jesus that I was sick striving to keep the Law; it just was't working!  I still felt rejected and like I was constantly falling short.   Either His sacrifice and grace is enough or I am doomed; cuz I just couldn't do this any more.  So I turned the equation around and strived to feel loved and accepted by Jesus for motivation to overcome rather than striving to overcome  to feel loved by Jesus.  Somehow, He encouraged me to come to Him if I was weary, and He would give me rest.  That if I did indeed give up and just put on His yoke, my burden would not be heavy.  Yes - I would still have to bear my cross, but it wouldn't be so burdensome.

As that started to take hold, I was so exhilarated that my infatuation with God started giving me victory over things that I could never get under control before.  Not just sins, but character flaws I've had since childhood.  I don't have strive to obey in those areas any more because those issues have just "gone away" - that's the only way I can explain it.

Is it that way with all of my issues? No - at least not yet.  But I do believe that as long as Jesus and I can work on my issues together,  He can keep me going through the process.

I too like balance in my faith.  While I can revel in the joy of the Spirit, I am also a huge fan of prophecy and finding Jesus in the OT.  I went to a strictly charismatic Sabbath-keeping church for a while, but hearing of nothing but warm fuzzy things about how much Jesus loves me without delving at all into the signs of His coming and the mercy found in His OT proclamations is not balanced.  So I am back at an SDA church that truly preaches a balanced message.

Like I said before, blessings to you on your path.