Is There A Need To Reconsider the AoD?

[Samie]

From SS Lesson Quarterly for June 4-10, 2016 (Tuesday subtopic-The Demise of Jerusalem):

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“The abomination of desolation” is generally understood as some kind of sacrilege or desecration of what is holy. Jesus is obviously talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, which would come in A.D. 70. "

Reading Jesus' words recorded in Matt 24:14-31, it appears to me that the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) triggers the start of the great tribulation, the occurrence of which God will shorten or no flesh remains alive when Jesus comes.  At the culmination of the great tribulation, celestial phenomena will occur which will shortly be capped by the Second Coming of our Lord.

It had been 1946 years from AD 70 when the 'destruction of Jerusalem' (abomination of desolation) occurred, but where is the great tribulation (also the time of trouble of Daniel 12:1, 2) which Jesus explained is to be triggered by that event?

Hence, the title of this thread. Any thoughts?

 

[JoeMo]

The biblical AoD did not occur in 70 AD; it is an event yet in the future.  There are many possible interpretations of what it is in a futuristic sense.  My current thinking is that it is an action by the Antichrist where he sets himself up as a god to be worshipped in a yet-to-be-built 3rd temple or in the Dome of the Rock (which is situated on the site of the previous 2 Jewish Temples).  The AoD could also just be another name for the Antichrist, who is himself an abomination.  In comparing Christian and Islamic eschatology, this Antichrist or AoD will be the coming Mahdi.

[Buzzards]

It has been my understanding that the SDA's were one of the few that understood who the scapegoat was

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Lev.16:8

And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats;

one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat,

and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel,

and all their transgressions in all their sins,

putting them upon the head of the goat,

and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited:

and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

 

Don't be following that Ole Scapegoat into the wilderness
 

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Matt.24:26

Wherefore if they shall say unto you,

Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth:

behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 

 

 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Buzzards said:

It has been my understanding that the SDA's were one of the few that understood who the scapegoat was

1 hour ago, Buzzards said:

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited:

The antitype of Yom Kippur found fulfillment in Calvary. Jesus was the High Priest, the two goats for a sin offering, the fit man, the scapegoat Who bore all our sins in His body on the tree. The land not inhabited is death.

Seems like the issue of Yom Kippur's scapegoat need to be reconsidered as well.

[Samie]

25 minutes ago, Samie said:

The antitype of Yom Kippur found fulfillment in Calvary. Jesus was the High Priest, the two goats for a sin offering, the fit man, the scapegoat Who bore all our sins in His body on the tree. The land not inhabited is death.

The above is what I currently understand from Scriptures.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

The antitype of Yom Kippur found fulfillment in Calvary.

The antitype of PASSOVER was fulfilled at Cavalry, when the blood of the Lamb covered believers, protecting them from eternal death.  The antitype of Yom Kippur will be fulfilled either by the Second Coming (when the scapegoat (satan) is bound and sent into the wilderness (bottomless pit); or at the White Throne Judgement after the millennium when satan is cast into the lake of fire.  Of course, this is just my opinion from what I read in scripture.  I wouldn't stake my salvation on it.

That being said, I must admit that there is a lot of Day of Atonement language in the Book of Hebrews.

Where the AoD needs to be reconsidered (at least by SDA's) is to take the focus off of Catholics and the papacy and put it on Islam.  After familiarizing myself with Islamic eschatology, I did a 2-column comparison of the characteristics of the biblical Antichrist vs. the Muslim Mahdi. It was eerie - indeed scary - how well they matched up.  It got even weirder when I made the same comparison between the Biblical False Prophet and the Islamic Prophet Jesus.  I still believe that satan will impersonate the "real" Christ prior to the genuine 2nd Coming, but the counterfeit Jesus will be coming back as a radical Muslim, not as a Catholic.  The Muslim Prophet Jesus will be coming to annihilate Christianity and Judaism in the name of Allah, not preserve them in the name of Yahweh.  When nominal Christians see the Islamic Prophet Jesus proclaiming that the Bible has been corrupted by Jews and Christians and carrying out supernatural persecution, many will convert to Islam, thinking they are following Jesus.

If this sounds crazy to you, read the Muslim eschatology in the Quran and the hadiths for yourself.

[Buzzards]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

The antitype of Yom Kippur found fulfillment in Calvary. Jesus was the High Priest, the two goats for a sin offering, the fit man, the scapegoat Who bore all our sins in His body on the tree. The land not inhabited is death.

Seems like the issue of Yom Kippur's scapegoat need to be reconsidered as well.

Sammie; The Spring Feast days, nor Pentecost were a fulfillment of the Fall Feasts

Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Tabernacles, in gathering nor the Harvest,

most because they are not farmers; do not realize the Harvest is a series of events,

not just 1

Wheat goes thru 7 steps before it is ready to be ground into fine Flour

for the baking of the Bread fit for the table of a King

puttting the Scythe to the ripeing wheat is just the beginning of the Harvest

 

Insert other media

 

[Samie]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

The antitype of Yom Kippur found fulfillment in Calvary.

At Yom Kippur, Scriptures say people are cleansed from all their sins:

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NKJ Leviticus 16:30 "For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

At Calvary, people were forgiven and washed clean from all sins:

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ESV Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

NKJ Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

 

[Samie]

NIV Matthew 24:15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel-- let the reader understand--:

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NIV Daniel 11:31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

NIV Daniel 12:11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

In Daniel, the word "abomination" is from the Hebrew #Quvi (shiqquts) which in other parts of the OT refers to idols or images of pagan deities (1 Kings 11:5, 7; 2 Kings 23:13). In the whole of Scriptures, there is only one "image" that will cause desolation to the end-time people of God - the image of the beast:

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KJV Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The king of Daniel 11:31 who is responsible for the setting up of the AoD will continue his exploits until the second coming (Dan 11:21-12:2). The biblical description of this king (Dan 11:36) fits like glove with the description of the man of sin (2 Thes 2:4) and that of the beast of Rev 13 (vv5-7).   Even the timing of their appearance in the world's arena is contemporary. It appears to me that his image is the fulfillment of the AoD.

[Dave Watchman]

19 hours ago, Samie said:

It had been 1946 years from AD 70 when the 'destruction of Jerusalem' (abomination of desolation) occurred, but where is the great tribulation (also the time of trouble of Daniel 12:1, 2) which Jesus explained is to be triggered by that event?

Hence, the title of this thread. Any thoughts?

I found and read the lesson but I'm not in complete agreement with it. The AofD that Jesus was talking about in the Olivet is not the equivalent of the Luke 21 Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

At this time I think that from the time that the AofD is set up, there will be 1290 literal days until the sun is darkened and the moon will not give it's light.

If we are in the count of the 1290 days, I'm sure everyone will be where they are supposed to be when "for then there will be great tribulation" begins.

So I for one will stop worrying about it, for now.

[8thdaypriest]

Is it possible the "abomination bringing desolation" prophecy by Jesus, COULD have more than one fulfillment? 

The Romans plowed Jerusalem "like a field".  The Emperor Hadrian turned the Temple Mount into a Roman temple of Jupiter.  THAT was setting up an idol in a "holy" place. 

So that would be a fulfillment.  The Muslims also set up a shrine to worship their god Allah - albeit without an image.

That said, the "abomination of desolation" does FIT right in with other "last days" prophecy from Daniel and Revelation.  I can agree with Samie that the image of/to the Beast will be the LAST fulfillment of that prophecy. 

NOTE:  I do NOT agree that scapegoat of Yom Kippur represented Jesus.  Jesus bore our sins, and carried our sins.  He will carry them UNTIL they are transferred to the "head of the scapegoat" when the heavenly court (described in Daniel 7) hands down its verdict.  Dominion will be taken from Satan, and given to Christ, who will then EXECUTE the judgment of the "court".  After this judgment is executed, the earth will be left "without form and void" (Jeremiah 4:23, Isa. 34:11).    In the Septuagint the Greek word “abussos” (Strong’s #12 - meaning bottomless or boundless) was used to translate the Hebrew “bohuw” (#0922 - meaning emptiness, void or waste).   The same Greek word “abussos” is translated as “bottomless pit” in Revelation 20:1-2 of our English Bible.

I definitely do NOT agree that death [the place where Jesus went] was "the uninhabited place".  Everyone except Enoch, and Elijah went to Sheol.  It was QUITE inhabited! 

[Gerr]

On 6/10/2016 at 3:44 AM, Samie said:

From SS Lesson Quarterly for June 4-10, 2016 (Tuesday subtopic-The Demise of Jerusalem):

Reading Jesus' words recorded in Matt 24:14-31, it appears to me that the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) triggers the start of the great tribulation, the occurrence of which God will shorten or no flesh remains alive when Jesus comes.  At the culmination of the great tribulation, celestial phenomena will occur which will shortly be capped by the Second Coming of our Lord.

It had been 1946 years from AD 70 when the 'destruction of Jerusalem' (abomination of desolation) occurred, but where is the great tribulation (also the time of trouble of Daniel 12:1, 2) which Jesus explained is to be triggered by that event?

Hence, the title of this thread. Any thoughts?

 

If you read Luke's account of the same account, instead of AoD, here is what he said of Jesus' words, 

O    Mt 24:15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 
O    Mk 13:14“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 
O    Lk 21:20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 

It seems clear to me that the AoD refers to the Roman armies that surrounded Jerusalem before its destruction in 70 AD.  The Christians took that to be the sign to flee Jerusalem and no Christian suffered the tribulation that came to Jerusalem.  There are other tribulations in Scripture, one being before the parousia.

[8thdaypriest]

In the context of "last days" prophecy, is the "transgression of desolation" the SAME AS the "abomination of desolation"? 

I say "last days" because the Angel Gabriel said to Daniel, "Understand son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."  . . . "I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation, for at the appointed time, the end shall be." 

Daniel 8:13 “Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, ‘How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?’”

So what desolation does this transgression or abomination bring?  I would say - the 7 last plagues.  Every person on the planet (except those sealed of God) will worship "the Beast and his image".  THAT is what will bring on the desolation.  These people will be "cut off" from God, on the final Day of Atonement.   

[8thdaypriest]

If the "transgression of desolation" (Dan. 8:13) is the SAME AS the "abomination of desolation" (Matt 24:15, Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11), THEN I have a possible interpretation concerning the 70-sevens of Daniel Chapter 9.

Here are the things to be accomplished by the END of the seventy-sevens:

Acceptable alternate translation words are in parentheses.

    1.  To finish (consume) the transgression [of desolation?]  
    2.  To make an end of sins  [Sins were finally placed on the head of the scapegoat, on Yom Kippur.] 
    3.  To make reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity [Final atonement for the congregation was made on Yom Kippur.]
    4.  To bring in everlasting righteousness (or justice) [The heavenly "court" of Daniel 7 will hand down final justice. Dominion will be given to Jesus Christ.]
    5.  To seal up vision and prophecy     
    6.  To anoint the Most Holy [The Most Holy was anointed on Yom Kippur by the High Priest.] 

#2, #3, and #6 can definitely be tied to Yom Kippur.  I believe the 70-sevens will END at the FINAL fulfillment of Yom Kippur - at the END of this age. 

[Dave Watchman]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Is it possible the "abomination bringing desolation" prophecy by Jesus, COULD have more than one fulfillment? 

No, it's not possible.

Not the one from the Matthew Olivet spoken of by the prophet Daniel. There's historical parallels, like in the days of Noah and Lot, but there's only one AofD.

[Dave Watchman]

3 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

t seems clear to me that the AoD refers to the Roman armies that surrounded Jerusalem before its destruction in 70 AD.  The Christians took that to be the sign to flee Jerusalem and no Christian suffered the tribulation that came to Jerusalem.  There are other tribulations in Scripture, one being before the parousia.

I know that it does, not to worry. But Matthew 24/25 is the true Olivet, Luke 21 was inside the temple during the day time in the first section called the women's court. Matthew 24 was at the end of the day, in the evening about a 25 minute uphill walk where Jesus lodged on the mount called Olivet.

"And every day he was teaching in the temple, but at night he went out and lodged on the mount called Olivet. And early in the morning all the people came to him in the temple to hear him.

Check out the different specifications here:

Regional repercussions in Luke 21:

• Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
• and let those who are inside the city depart,
• and let not those who are out in the country enter it,
•  for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
•  Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
• For there will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.
•  They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

World wide repercussions in Matthew 24:

• then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
• Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house,
• and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.
• And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!
• Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
• For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
• And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The other question to be asked is that after the curtain was rent in the temple, would that or any other place in Jerusalem be considered a "holy place"?

If they built a new temple in Jerusalem today would it also automatically become a "holy place"?

I think the trick is to figure out where the "holy place" is that the AofD is set up and can be seen "standing in.

[Dave Watchman]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In the context of "last days" prophecy, is the "transgression of desolation" the SAME AS the "abomination of desolation"? 

I say "last days" because the Angel Gabriel said to Daniel, "Understand son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."  . . . "I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation, for at the appointed time, the end shall be." 

Daniel 8:13 “Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, ‘How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?’”

So what desolation does this transgression or abomination bring?  I would say - the 7 last plagues.  Every person on the planet (except those sealed of God) will worship "the Beast and his image".  THAT is what will bring on the desolation.  These people will be "cut off" from God, on the final Day of Atonement.

 

This looks pretty much right to me.

The "transgression of desolation" is the SAME AS the "abomination of desolation".

Desolations have been decreed.

 

[Samie]

9 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

It seems clear to me that the AoD refers to the Roman armies that surrounded Jerusalem before its destruction in 70 AD.  The Christians took that to be the sign to flee Jerusalem and no Christian suffered the tribulation that came to Jerusalem.  There are other tribulations in Scripture, one being before the parousia.

Jesus explained that the setting up of the AoD triggers the occurrence of the great tribulation. So if the AoD already occurred in 70 AD what event in circa 70 AD corresponded to the great tribulation? One has to remember that the great tribulation (also called the time of trouble in Dan 12:1, 2) will occur but once as Jesus explained.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

That said, the "abomination of desolation" does FIT right in with other "last days" prophecy from Daniel and Revelation.  I can agree with Samie that the image of/to the Beast will be the LAST fulfillment of that prophecy. 

Oh, thank you.

 

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

NOTE:  I do NOT agree that scapegoat of Yom Kippur represented Jesus.  Jesus bore our sins, and carried our sins.  He will carry them UNTIL they are transferred to the "head of the scapegoat" when the heavenly court (described in Daniel 7) hands down its verdict. 

The scapegoat carried all sins of the people. Jesus bore all sins of the people. Why would Jesus be not the scapegoat?

I don't believe that Jesus is carrying our sins UNTIL He transfers them to Satan. That would mean Jesus ascended to heaven with our sins.  Heaven is a place where no sin is allowed.  For Jesus to carry our sins is for Him to remember those sins. But Scriptures say God remembers our sins NO MORE. If He remembers them NO MORE, why would Christ be carrying them now?

 

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I definitely do NOT agree that death [the place where Jesus went] was "the uninhabited place".  Everyone except Enoch, and Elijah went to Sheol.  It was QUITE inhabited! 

The death were Jesus went to with our sins is unique: He alone died that type of death. That death was payment for ALL sins; it was separation from His Father. That death was NOT inhabited when He went there. When He left it, it will remain NOT inhabited FOREVER.

[Gerr]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

Jesus explained that the setting up of the AoD triggers the occurrence of the great tribulation. So if the AoD already occurred in 70 AD what event in circa 70 AD corresponded to the great tribulation? One has to remember that the great tribulation (also called the time of trouble in Dan 12:1, 2) will occur but once as Jesus explained.

Do a little research into what happened to Jerusalem during the siege & subsequent destruction.  See if that was not a great tribulation. Furthermore, there is more than one tribulation mentioned in scripture  Also remember that when Jeaus answered the disciples' 2-fold question, He made no distinction between the signs of the end of the world and the destruction.  

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Do a little research into what happened to Jerusalem during the siege & subsequent destruction.  

Jesus SPECIFIED that the destruction would leave NO stone left on top of another stone. That did NOT occur in 70 AD. Proof is the Western Wall (also known as the Wailing Wall). And a wall is made up of stones piled on top of other stones. Here's one description of how the Wailing Wall is revered:

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In Judaism, the Western Wall is venerated as the sole remnant of the Holy Temple. It has become a place of pilgrimage for Jews, as it is the closest permitted accessible site to the holiest spot in Judaism, namely the Even ha-shetiya or Foundation Stone, which lies on the Temple Mount. According to one rabbinic opinion, Jews may not set foot upon the Temple Mount and doing so is a sin punishable by Kareth. While almost all historians and archaeologists and some rabbinical authorities believe that the rocky outcrop in the Dome of the Rock is the Foundation Stone,^[134] some rabbis say it is located directly opposite the exposed section of the Western Wall, near the El-kas fountain.^[135] This spot was the site of the Holy of Holies when the Temple stood.

 

4 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

See if that was not a great tribulation. Furthermore, there is more than one tribulation mentioned in scripture  Also remember that when Jeaus answered the disciples' 2-fold question, He made no distinction between the signs of the end of the world and the destruction.

In relation to the AoD, Jesus spoke about THE great tribulation (also called time of trouble in Dan 12:1, 2), the occurrence of which is only ONCE and wil be triggered by the setting up of the AoD. Now since you believe the setting up of the AoD occurred in 70 AD, I was asking what event in circa 70 AD corresponded to THE great tribulation.

It seems like there's none.

And if THE great tribulation did not occur in 70 AD then its occurrence was not triggered by the 70AD-destruction-of-Jerusalem. Therefore the 70AD-destruction-of-Jerusalem is NOT the AoD, because IF it is, then, THE great tribulation would have been triggered and would have occurred by then.

And if THE great tribulation had already occurred in 70 AD then it would have already ended because Jesus specified that God will shorten its occurrence or no one will remain alive when He comes.  And IF it has already ended then Jesus would have already returned and every eye would have seen Him come in the clouds of heaven more than a millennium ago.

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, Samie said:

I don't believe that Jesus is carrying our sins UNTIL He transfers them to Satan. That would mean Jesus ascended to heaven with our sins.  Heaven is a place where no sin is allowed.  For Jesus to carry our sins is for Him to remember those sins. But Scriptures say God remembers our sins NO MORE. If He remembers them NO MORE, why would Christ be carrying them now?

 

God has promised that after all is resolved, that He "will remember our sins no more".  The verse does NOT SAY that the moment Jesus dies, God will suddenly not remember the sins of any human being who ever lived, or ever would live.  Not saying that...

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, Samie said:

The death were Jesus went to with our sins is unique: He alone died that type of death. That death was payment for ALL sins; it was separation from His Father. That death was NOT inhabited when He went there. When He left it, it will remain NOT inhabited FOREVER.

That's a BIG DIFFERENCE between our beliefs Samie.  I do not believe that Jesus death was "payment" for all sins - as if God the Father had demanded "payment". 

I believe that Jesus fulfilled the condition (perfect obedience to the Law) - the condition for dominion over this earth.  With dominion comes the right to every human being who has ever lived within that dominion.  With dominion comes the right to judge.  And Jesus said, "I know my sheep." 

Personally - I do not believe that God the Father separated Himself from His own Son.  I believe that Satan was ALLOWED to so cloud the mind of Christ that He felt separated - and THAT is what killed Him. 

I do NOT believe that Jesus died the "second death".  There is no resurrection from "the second death" - and Jesus was resurrected by His Father. 

I believe that Jesus died physical death, brought on by physical torture, and mental torture.  He was "made a little lower than the angels FOR the suffering of (this) death, because angels do not die physical death. 

OK - we are NOT still talking about the abomination of desolation.  Let's go back to the topic. 

 

[Samie]

8 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God has promised that after all is resolved, that He "will remember our sins no more".  The verse does NOT SAY that the moment Jesus dies, God will suddenly not remember the sins of any human being who ever lived, or ever would live.  Not saying that...

Seems not like what you are implying.

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KJV Hebrews 10:16-17   This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The non-remembering of sins is PART of the new covenant which was ratified when Jesus died.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Personally - I do not believe that God the Father separated Himself from His own Son.  I believe that Satan was ALLOWED to so cloud the mind of Christ that He felt separated - and THAT is what killed Him. 

I don't think so. Jesus said He laid down His life. That's voluntary, I guess, on His own volition. He came to die to give us life. By His stripes we were healed.