Is There A Need To Reconsider the AoD?

[Gerr]

On June 10, 2016 at 3:44 AM, Samie said:

From SS Lesson Quarterly for June 4-10, 2016 (Tuesday subtopic-The Demise of Jerusalem):

Reading Jesus' words recorded in Matt 24:14-31, it appears to me that the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) triggers the start of the great tribulation, the occurrence of which God will shorten or no flesh remains alive when Jesus comes.  At the culmination of the great tribulation, celestial phenomena will occur which will shortly be capped by the Second Coming of our Lord.

It had been 1946 years from AD 70 when the 'destruction of Jerusalem' (abomination of desolation) occurred, but where is the great tribulation (also the time of trouble of Daniel 12:1, 2) which Jesus explained is to be triggered by that event?

Hence, the title of this thread. Any thoughts?

 

In Mt 24, Mk 13 & Lk 21, the disciples & Jesus were talking about the temple complex in which none of the original stones remain one on top of another.

[8thdaypriest]

Samie - you and I have agreed to disagree so many times that I've lost count.  I do NOT post here to convince you of anything.  I post for the benefit of those who may read this.

[Samie]

17 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie - you and I have agreed to disagree so many times that I've lost count.  I do NOT post here to convince you of anything.  I post for the benefit of those who may read this.

Same here, Rachel. Nothing to worry.

[Samie]

22 minutes ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

In Mt 24, Mk 13 & Lk 21, the disciples & Jesus were talking about the temple complex in which none of the original stones remain one on top of another.

The wailing wall was already built long before Jesus and His disciples talked about the temple complex.

Jesus said that no stone will be left on top of another stone. But the wailing wall is proof that there are yet stones on top of other stones which led me to believe that Jesus was speaking of a destruction different from that of 70 AD.

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, Samie said:

The wailing wall was already built long before Jesus and His disciples talked about the temple complex.

Jesus said that no stone will be left on top of another stone. But the wailing wall is proof that there are yet stones on top of other stones which led me to believe that Jesus was speaking of a destruction different from that of 70 AD.

The "wailing wall" has been shown to be part of Herod the Great's expansion of the Temple grounds.  It is OUTSIDE of the original Temple Court built by Solomon.  Jews wailing at the wall, are NOT standing on "holy ground".  The Temple WAS itself completely destroyed! 

That said, I believe that Jesus was speaking of the upcoming destruction (70AD) AND the future destruction of a future rebuilt Temple - the one in which "the son of perdition" will sit "showing himself that he is God."

2Thessalonians 2:3-4  “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

    NOTE: The only person who was allowed to sit in the Temple courtyard was the anointed  King - from the line of David (2Sam. 7:18; 2Chron. 17:16). 

This alone should tell you who the “son of perdition” is pretending to be.  

He will make fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13).  This was the sign of the LORD’s presence for ancient Israel (Lev. 9:24, Num. 16:35, I Ki. 18:38, 2Chron 7:1).  The “fire” consumed the sacrifice on the alter in the court of the Temple.  This scenario requires a Temple, and the restoration of animal sacrifices.  

This NEXT Temple will also be completely destroyed - with no stone remaining upon another. 

I don't understand the resistance to believing that another Temple will be built.

[8thdaypriest]

I've been trying to find every reference to "the little horn" (Daniel 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 - and Revelation)

The LH is the one who will "take away the daily".  "The daily" or "continual" was the morning and evening continual burnt offering.  THAT requires a Temple, and animal sacrifices. 

If you read carefully through Daniel 7: 9-27, the heavenly "court" will take away the dominion OF the "little horn".  He is the guy who will be ruling the world and persecuting the saints - right up to the time that judgment comes down from the "court" giving dominion to Christ.  That's the 7th trumpet!!!  Heaven is rejoicing BECAUSE Christ now has dominion.  "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev. 11:15). 

I am NOT SAYING who the "little horn" is.  Though I'm not at all convinced that the Papacy will be that "little horn". 

Daniel 7:23-26  The 4th terrible beast will rule the WHOLE EARTH.  (Pagan Rome did NOT rule the "whole earth".) 

10 horns arise from the 4th terrible beast, THEN the "little horn" pulls up 3, and takes over the world.  The "little horn" IS the 8th king. 

The LH "exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the Temple was cast down." 

Dan 8:17 says "the vision refers to the time of the END", and v.19 the "latter time of the indignation". 

The LH is the "prince to come" of Daniel 9:26.  The "prince to come" "will bring an end to sacrifice and offering".  THAT would include the "daily" sacrifices. 

The LH is the "one who makes desolate" (9:27).  He is "the desolator".  Because of Numbers 24:24, many believe he will be an Amalakite (an Arab descended from Esau). 

Daniel 11:29-45 is speaking of the LH. 

v.31   His forces take away the daily

v.36  He will magnify himself above EVERY GOD.  He speaks blasphemy against the God of Heaven.  He will not "regard" any god.  "He shall magnify himself above them all."

His takeover of the Temple, and persecution of the "holy people" will last 1260 days. 

[JoeMo]

 

"They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.  The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." (Rev. 17:10-11)

The 5 that have fallen are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia,  and Greece.  The one that "is" (from John's POV) was Rome (including the Eastern half of the Roman Empire ruled out of Constantinople until the 15th century) .  I would propose that the 7th King was the Turkish Ottoman Empire ( an Islamic Caliphate); and the 8th king will be a resurgence of the Islamic Caliphate.  Notice how each of the first 7 kings in succession defeated one another to rule Jerusalem - the center of the earth as far as the Bible is concerned - with the objective of entirely dismantling or exterminating the nation of Israel.  The 8th king will do likewise.

Islam ruled the Middle East , parts of Eastern Europe, and North Africa with an iron fist for almost 600 years before it was completely dismantled after WW1.  Now a new Caliphate - led by the likes of ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Boko-Haram, etc. - is trying to take over the same region; and if they are successful, take over the planet.  Recent events in Orlando and San Bernardino, Paris, and Brussels  show that they are already infiltrating the West.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "wailing wall" has been shown to be part of Herod the Great's expansion of the Temple grounds.  It is OUTSIDE of the original Temple Court built by Solomon.  Jews wailing at the wall, are NOT standing on "holy ground".  The Temple WAS itself completely destroyed! 

That said, I believe that Jesus was speaking of the upcoming destruction (70AD) AND the future destruction of a future rebuilt Temple - the one in which "the son of perdition" will sit "showing himself that he is God."

If there are 2 different destructions of Jerusalem then there must necessarily be 2 different great tribulations which these destructions will trigger. But Jesus said that there is only ONE great tribulation; and because the great tribulation has not yet occurred, it necessarily follows that the destruction of Jerusalem that would have triggered its occurrence yet remains to be fulfilled.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Daniel 11:29-45 is speaking of the LH. 

The LH is the vile person king of Dan 11:21 = the beast of Rev 13 whose image is the AoD.

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

If there are 2 different destructions of Jerusalem then there must necessarily be 2 different great tribulations which these destructions will trigger. But Jesus said that there is only ONE great tribulation; and because the great tribulation has not yet occurred, it necessarily follows that the destruction of Jerusalem that would have triggered its occurrence yet remains to be fulfilled.

The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD could not have been the fulfillment of the Great Tribulation any more than Antiochus Epiphanes was the fulfillment of the AoD.  They may be application of the prophecies, or precursors to these events ; but they were not the ultimate fulfillments or Christ would have already come and we wouldn't be here discussing this.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

If there are 2 different destructions of Jerusalem then there must necessarily be 2 different great tribulations which these destructions will trigger. But Jesus said that there is only ONE great tribulation; and because the great tribulation has not yet occurred, it necessarily follows that the destruction of Jerusalem that would have triggered its occurrence yet remains to be fulfilled.

You don't think what the Romans did to Jews and Jerusalem (in 70AD) was a "great tribulation" FOR those Jews?  Think again.  The roads into Jerusalem lined with crosses - for miles.

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, JoeMo said:

 

"They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.  The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction." (Rev. 17:10-11)

The 5 that have fallen are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia,  and Greece.  The one that "is" (from John's POV) was Rome (including the Eastern half of the Roman Empire ruled out of Constantinople until the 15th century) .  I would propose that the 7th King was the Turkish Ottoman Empire ( an Islamic Caliphate); and the 8th king will be a resurgence of the Islamic Caliphate.  Notice how each of the first 7 kings in succession defeated one another to rule Jerusalem - the center of the earth as far as the Bible is concerned - with the objective of entirely dismantling or exterminating the nation of Israel.  The 8th king will do likewise.

Islam ruled the Middle East , parts of Eastern Europe, and North Africa with an iron fist for almost 600 years before it was completely dismantled after WW1.  Now a new Caliphate - led by the likes of ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Boko-Haram, etc. - is trying to take over the same region; and if they are successful, take over the planet.  Recent events in Orlando and San Bernardino, Paris, and Brussels  show that they are already infiltrating the West.

I believe the "little horn" will BE the 8th king. 

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe the "little horn" will BE the 8th king. 

I agree.  That little horn will be the Mahdi. 

[Samie]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You don't think what the Romans did to Jews and Jerusalem (in 70AD) was a "great tribulation" FOR those Jews?  Think again.  The roads into Jerusalem lined with crosses - for miles.

It could be A great tribulation BUT it is not THE great tribulation that Jesus was referring to.

[8thdaypriest]

26 minutes ago, Samie said:

It could be A great tribulation BUT it is not THE great tribulation that Jesus was referring to.

I've already AGREED with you on THAT Samie.  I believe the tribulation of 70AD was A fulfillment - not THE final fulfillment.  It was NOT the "tribulation such as never was since the beginning of the world, to that time".  Daniel was told "at that time your people will be delivered.  Multitudes of those who sleep in the dust will awake.  Some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting condemnation." 

There was no deliverance back in 70AD,  and no resurrection.

[8thdaypriest]

I can follow the Little Horn through Daniel chapters 7-8-9 and 11.  And what he does is mentioned also in Chapter 12.

I see that he is the one who takes away the continual morning/evening sacrifice (the daily).  I see that he is the one who makes war on the saints for 3.5 years, leading up to the 7th trumpet, and the Second Coming.     What I'm trying to do now, is to see clearly the Little Horn in Revelation chapters 13 and 17, and 19:20.  

Samie:  I know you believe you've got it figured out, but you have not explained it in such a way that I can understand it clearly - the Little Horn of Daniel's prophecies, as he acts in the prophecies of Revelation.  Maybe I just have to work it through for myself.

[Samie]

36 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie:  I know you believe you've got it figured out, but you have not explained it in such a way that I can understand it clearly - the Little Horn of Daniel's prophecies, as he acts in the prophecies of Revelation.  Maybe I just have to work it through for myself.

I'm excited to see what comes out from your independent study. I'll wait for it, Rachel.

[insx]

I don't live in Judea or anywhere close. Can I sit tight?

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, insx said:

I don't live in Judea or anywhere close. Can I sit tight?

Nope.

The Beast (resurrected/recovered from his deadly wound through the "little horn's rising) will be allowed (by God) "authority over EVERY tribe tongue and nation".  "And ALL who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." 

The Beast's authority will reach you - regardless of where you live. 

Satan will FINALLY rule this entire planet (except for the redeemed).  That is what he has been striving for, all down through history.  Satan seems to think that if he rules the entire planet, the heavenly "court" will have to award it to him. 

Daniel 12 :7  "it shall be for a time, times, and part of a time:  and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things will be finished". 

The "power of the holy people" is the power to WITNESS.  Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

When the last witnesses to the truth are either killed or imprisoned by the Beast power" - THAT'S WHEN IT'S OVER.  No one else can hear the truth, believe the truth, and be saved.

I realize it's very grim, but it's what The Book says.

[Samie]

Here's my version of an eschatological time-chart:

 

Eschatological Diagram.pdf

[8thdaypriest]

In Daniel 7 and 8, the Little Horn will make war against the saints and prevail against them for "time, times, and a part" (= 1260 days = 42 months) UNTIL the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom (Dan. 7:21-22) at the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15 (the time to reward the saints). 

In Revelation Cpt 13, the resurrected Beast (in the person of it's image = the 8th head) will then make war with the saints and overcome them for "time, times, and a part (=1260 days=42months).  (Rev. Cpt 13)

The time period of the persecution MATCHES.  The Little Horn of Daniel, IS the resurrected Beast of Revelation. 

[8thdaypriest]

9 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In Daniel 7 and 8, the Little Horn will make war against the saints and prevail against them for "time, times, and a part" (= 1260 days = 42 months) UNTIL the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom (Dan. 7:21-22) at the 7th trumpet, Rev. 11:15 (the time to reward the saints). 

In Revelation Cpt 13, the resurrected Beast (in the person of it's image = the 8th head) will then make war with the saints and overcome them for "time, times, and a part (=1260 days=42months).  (Rev. Cpt 13)

The time period of the persecution MATCHES.  The Little Horn of Daniel, IS the resurrected Beast of Revelation. 

In Revelation 13, the Beast has 7 heads which come to power successively.  The 7th one would be the one that suffers a "deadly wound".  The Beast seems DEAD.

At the point when the "little horn" comes up, there are only 10 horns.  There is no head, because the 7th one received a "deadly wound". 

THEN - a "little horn" comes up in the midst of the 10 horns.  He wants a share of power.  His power grows so fast that no one can stop him (though 3 kings try).  Think HITLER.

The "Little Horn" will finally take over the world.  He will be the "image" of the Terrible Beast = the 8th Head. 

Could it be that the Beast from the Land will somehow assist the Little Horn in it's rise to world power?  The Beast from the Land, breathes life into "the image" of the Beast (Rev. 13:14). 

The Beast grows an 8th head WHEN the "Beast from the Land" breathes life into the "Image of the Beast".  That IMAGE will become the 8th head. 

The Image speaks (Rev 13:15) demanding that everyone worship (serve) him, and threatening death to anyone who refuses. 

The Image then causes all to receive "the mark".

The QUESTION is:  Who is the Beast from "the land" - the Beast "like a lamb"?  I don't believe the United States will really be a power player by this time.  The 10 Kings will be ruling the world when the Little Horn makes his appearance. 

[8thdaypriest]

 In verse 36 and 37 of Daniel Cpt 11, we are told that the evil king will exalt and magnify himself above every god".   He will not show regard for "any god" but will "magnify himself above them all." 

Then later in verse 39, "he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory;" 

We know this evil king is the Little Horn because his forces "take away the daily and place there the abomination of desolation."  These actions are attributed to the LH in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

So WHICH "god" fits verse 39.  Which god will he "acknowledge and advance its glory" ?

I don't have the answer.  I'm just asking the question. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 In verse 36 and 37 of Daniel Cpt 11, we are told that the evil king will exalt and magnify himself above every god".   He will not show regard for "any god" but will "magnify himself above them all." 

Then later in verse 39, "he shall act against the strongest fortresses with a foreign god, which he shall acknowledge, and advance its glory;" 

We know this evil king is the Little Horn because his forces "take away the daily and place there the abomination of desolation."  These actions are attributed to the LH in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

So WHICH "god" fits verse 39.  Which god will he "acknowledge and advance its glory" ?

I don't have the answer.  I'm just asking the question. 

 

Joe,

I think I'll ask Thomas this question.  Maybe he will have some insight.

[JoeMo]

On 6/15/2016 at 9:45 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

When the last witnesses to the truth are either killed or imprisoned by the Beast power" - THAT'S WHEN IT'S OVER.  No one else can hear the truth, believe the truth, and be saved.

I would add to this ..." when every living true believer is taken off of the planet (or otherwise placed under divine protection) just before the 7 bowls of God's wrath are poured out" ...

I am considering the possibility that the little horn and the first beast with with the deadly wound that was healed (See Rev. 13:3-12) are one and the same entity. If so, the AoD could very well be when the beast (antichrist) sits in the temple and declares himself to be God.