What Does It Really Mean to Be “Born Again”?

[Robert]

18 minutes ago, Samie said:

It's you teaching legalism, not me.

Here's what you said:

Quote

The reason why "an infant is born holy, upright and blameless" is all because of Christ

And that's salvation by what God does in us or salvation by sanctification. 

[Samie]

How is that legalism?

[Samie]

It's you who teach that infants are born spiritually dead in sin, and hence NOT In Christ.

I teach infants are born spiritually alive and hence In Christ.  How is my teaching legalism?

[Robert]

14 minutes ago, Samie said:

How is that legalism?

Christ doesn't work in us in order to make us acceptable before His Father's law.   The imparted righteousness of Christ, i.e., sanctification, is only given to those who have accepted that "in Christ" they stand blameless & holy now and in the judgment.  Hence the imputed righteousness of Christ is what saves, not the imparted. 

[Robert]

16 minutes ago, Samie said:

It's you who teach that infants are born spiritually dead in sin, and hence NOT In Christ.

Infants are born spiritually dead in sin at no fault of their own. 

However (and this is the part you screw up), "in Christ" they have a glorified humanity, free from sin and mortality - but that's "in Christ" and He is in heaven.

[Samie]

14 minutes ago, Robert said:

Christ doesn't work in us in order to make us acceptable before His Father's law.   The imparted righteousness of Christ, i.e., sanctification, is only given to those who have accepted that "in Christ" they stand blameless & holy now and in the judgment.  Hence the imputed righteousness of Christ is what saves, not the imparted. 

So while NOT in Christ, people can accept. Blatantly OPPOSED to the teaching of Jesus that APART from or NOT In Him man can do NOTHING.

Jesus: APART from Me man can do NOTHING.

Robert: APART from Christ man can do SOMETHING: accept what Robert teaches and they can be in Christ.

[Samie]

21 minutes ago, Robert said:

Infants are born spiritually dead in sin at no fault of their own. 

However (and this is the part you screw up), "in Christ" they have a glorified humanity, free from sin and mortality - but that's "in Christ" and He is in heaven.

Your continued belief in Augustine makes you so confused.

How can the infants who you said are born spiritually dead in sin yet at the same time are also "In Christ"?

[Robert]

50 minutes ago, Samie said:

How can the infants who you said are born spiritually dead in sin yet at the same time are also "In Christ"?

Acts 17:26  "He made from one man (Adam) every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth"

All of us came from one man, Adam. Because of Adam's sin we are born slaves to sin.

At the incarnation the Divinity of Christ was united to the fallen life we all share with Adam. Thus Christ, while remaining Himself, was  made the Son of Man.

For 30+ years Christ the man lived a perfect life with respect to God's law.  And on the cross the life we all share with Adam died.  Therefore the justice of the law was satisfied.  

Sunday morning the Divinity of Christ (which never died) was raised with a glorified, sinless humanity.  This "new creation" was taken to heaven "in Christ" at His ascension.   There our High Priest presents believing children of Adam perfect in Himself in the most holy place.

So we have two humanities:

1. The one that comes from Adam
2. The one that is in Christ.

You do not receive # 2 until the resurrection. 

[Samie]

You failed to answer the question. Again:

How can the infants who you said are born spiritually dead in sin be at the same time born also "In Christ?

You may also answer this question I posted for you in another thread:

But then since you teach as you learned from Augustine, that infants are born spiritually dead in sin and hence NOT In Christ, when where they In Christ if they died at birth?

You are not being clear (are you confused?) hence my two different but related questions.

[Robert]

Quote

How can the infants who you said are born spiritually dead in sin be at the same time born also "In Christ?

So we have two humanities:

1. The one that comes from Adam
2. The one that is in Christ.

You do not receive # 2 until the resurrection. 

[Samie]

So, you are saying when a child is born that child is dead in sin and and at the same time he is also born In Christ. Wow!!!  Your continued belief in Augustine brings you to a biblically untenable scenario: born In Christ yet dead in sin. 

In Christ yet dead in sin? Are you serious?  Being In Christ, the infant is already part of the body of Christ Who lives forevermore. How can you say one who is In Christ is yet dead in sin when Scriptures say there is NOW no more condemnation for those who are In Christ and that In Him we live?

[Robert]

19 minutes ago, Samie said:

So, you are saying when a child is born that child is dead in sin and and at the same time he is also born In Christ. Wow!!!  Your continued belief in Augustine brings you to a biblically untenable scenario: born In Christ yet dead in sin. 

In Christ yet dead in sin? Are you serious?  Being In Christ, the infant is already part of the body of Christ Who lives forevermore. How can you say one who is In Christ is yet dead in sin when Scriptures say there is NOW no more condemnation for those who are In Christ and that In Him we live?

Samie, you need to put on Christ and less of self....

Meditate on this:

"Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires"  Rom 13:14

Robert

[Samie]

Don't run away from the issue, brother. Let's stick to it first.

Putting on the Lord Jesus Christ is simply living a lifestyle consistent with what He wants His body part to live.

We are yet in this issue of your Augustine-derived teaching where the infant born In Christ is yet dead in sin.

 

[Samie]

Robert believes infants are born in Christ and also born spiritually dead in sin.  But the two are mutually exclusive.  One cannot be dead in sin while In Christ.  Scriptures say there is no condemnation for those who are In Christ.

When one is In Christ he  cannot possibly be dead in sin because to be dead in sin is to be separated from God and APART from or NOT In Christ. On the other hand, to be In Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4) is to be spiritually alive.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Don't run away from the issue, brother. Let's stick to it first.

Putting on the Lord Jesus Christ is simply living a lifestyle consistent with what He wants His body part to live.

We are yet in this issue of your Augustine-derived teaching where the infant born In Christ is yet dead in sin.

 

Stop with the attacks. Stop with exaggerations and twisting of what I've written. Read my responses and try to be accurate with your responses.  

[Robert]

11 minutes ago, Samie said:

Robert believes infants are born in Christ and also born spiritually dead in sin.

Why are you addressing the readers?  Why not address me...after all your debate seems to be with me.  Keep it simple.

[Robert]

34 minutes ago, Samie said:

.... your Augustine-derived teaching where the infant born In Christ is yet dead in sin.

This is blatantly false!

Augustine didn't teach anything about infants born "in Christ".  What he basically taught is that infants are born with the stain of "original sin".  By that he meant that infants are born guilty of Adam's sin.

I do not teach this - not even close.

Now, do you wish to apologize? If not, the debate is over for me.  

Robert

[Robert]

"Original sin, according to Augustine, consists of the guilt of Adam which all humans inherit."  

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

This is blatantly false!

Augustine didn't teach anything about infants born "in Christ".  What he basically taught is that infants are born with the stain of "original sin".  By that he meant that infants are born guilty of Adam's sin.

I do not teach this - not even close.

Now, do you wish to apologize? If not, the debate is over for me.  

Robert

OK.  I stand corrected and I apologize.

Then what you derived from Augustine is that infants are born dead in sin - guilty of Adam's sin, but at the same time you likewise believe infants while born spiritually dead in sin are also born In Christ. So, again:

You believe that infants are born In Christ and also born spiritually dead in sin.  But the two are mutually exclusive.  One cannot be dead in sin while In Christ.  Scriptures say there is no condemnation for those who are In Christ.

When one is In Christ he  cannot possibly be dead in sin because to be dead in sin is to be separated from God and APART from or NOT In Christ. On the other hand, to be In Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4) is to be spiritually alive and NOT dead in sin.

How do you explain the paradox in what you believe and teach?

[Robert]

Thanks, Samie...You are a gentleman. 

I'll get back with you....When I do, Let's take one step at a time to see were I'm losing you.  Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well?

[Samie]

You are welcome, Robert. I'll wait for your response.

Please make clear why you believe an infant born dead in sin is also born In Christ.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

You are welcome, Robert. I'll wait for your response.

Please make clear why you believe an infant born dead in sin is also born In Christ.

I'll try....