What Does It Really Mean to Be “Born Again”?

[Samie]

8 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

And the final part of my answer to you is from Jesus' words to Nicademus;

Joh 3:21  "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

We have been taught that when we come to the light we THEN learn how to practice the truth. Jesus here says exactly the opposite; we must first DO (accomplish) RIGHTEOUSNESS, and THEN we come to the light, and light is righteousness.

You forgot to consider the last part of Jesus' statement: the righteous deeds are done In God and therefore done In Christ because Christ is one with the Father. Why are righteous deeds done In Christ? Because man cannot do anything righteous APART from, or NOT IN, Christ.

Here's the prophet Isaiah:

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ESV Isaiah 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

I am thinking that you and I may have the same motive: to tell people to do what is in accordance with God's will.  The only difference is that you teach that people can do righteous deeds while NOT yet In Christ and hence while yet APART from Christ.

For me, I believe God created Adam righteous. When Adam sinned, God saved him and reinstated him to his pre-fall condition, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. With Adam In Christ because of God's saving act, all his descendants are born In Christ. Hence, we can do righteous deeds because of our being In Christ, a condition we did not work for, but instead came about because of God's saving act the day Adam sinned.

Now that we are In Christ, we are all heaven-bound UNTIL and UNLESS our names are blotted out from the book of life when we die, for not overcoming evil with good while alive. And overcomers, Jesus said, will not be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Him - Who is likewise an overcomer - in His throne.

[Kevin H]

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Please be careful as you discuss here. First "The Law and the Prophets" really does not limit to these books but is still inclusive of the whole Bible.

Second, Eccl. was not yet considered a part of the Bible in Jesus' day. It did not get included in the Bible until around the time that Revelation was being written. So Jesus and Paul would not have been referring to Eccl. when writings about the scriptures.

The reason why it took so long to become a part of the Bible is because the Hebrews feared that it would be misunderstood. At the end of the book is a chiastic structure poem. The middle (thus important point) can be translated "All of this will come under judgment" Eccl. was a collection of false teachings that the writer was warning us NOT to believe. with portions of chapter 11 and 12 being what the writer saw as truth. So we need to be careful with using Eccl. as proof texts.

Now the author of Eccl. said that he wanted to be fair in his description of these dangerous beliefs, showing them in a good light so that you could see that some of these would be tempting to believe (and there are beautiful things in that book but careful study shows that the good we can bring out of that book is taking part of what it says out of context and thus place the words in a true setting) but as a whole the book is a book of ideas that the author is trying to warn us not to accept. 

[Musicman1228]

11 hours ago, Samie said:

You forgot to consider the last part of Jesus' statement: the righteous deeds are done In God and therefore done In Christ because Christ is one with the Father. Why are righteous deeds done In Christ? Because man cannot do anything righteous APART from, or NOT IN, Christ.

Here's the prophet Isaiah:

I am thinking that you and I may have the same motive: to tell people to do what is in accordance with God's will.  The only difference is that you teach that people can do righteous deeds while NOT yet In Christ and hence while yet APART from Christ.

For me, I believe God created Adam righteous. When Adam sinned, God saved him and reinstated him to his pre-fall condition, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. With Adam In Christ because of God's saving act, all his descendants are born In Christ. Hence, we can do righteous deeds because of our being In Christ, a condition we did not work for, but instead came about because of God's saving act the day Adam sinned.

Now that we are In Christ, we are all heaven-bound UNTIL and UNLESS our names are blotted out from the book of life when we die, for not overcoming evil with good while alive. And overcomers, Jesus said, will not be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Him - Who is likewise an overcomer - in His throne.

Samie, If humans cannot do anything that is righteous, and Jesus said that we must become righteous to be included in the Kingdom of Heaven (God), then how could Jesus pass judgement on humanity based on what they do? This would be patently unfair. That is why Paul teaches a lawless gospel; 

Rom 4:15  for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Yet Jesus warned against a lawless gospel taught by false prophets:

Mat 24:11  "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Mat 24:12  "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

Time and again Jesus promised reward based on performance:

Rev.2:7 "To him who overcomes,"

Rev. 2:11 "He who overcomes"

Rev. 2:17 "To him who overcomes"

Rev.2:26 "He who overcomes,"

Rev.3:1 'I know your deeds,"

Rev. 3:8 'I know your deeds,'

Rev. 3:15 'I know your deeds,'

We are REQUIRED to be SANCTIFIED, just a Jesus was sanctified. And it is HIS words that sanctify us, not just any words that appear in the Bible, or any book by anyone that simple CLAIMS to be 'of Christ'.

Joh 17:17  "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

The Bible does contain the words of God, but ALL of the words in the Bible ARE NOT the words of God. Many of those words are the words of an imposter, that claimed to be an apostle of Christ, but in fact is a wolf in sheep's clothing. But the ONLY words that are  God's words are those that Jesus spoke to His own eyewitness disciples while He was here on earth, and the words of God as seen in the Law and the Prophets in the Old Testament of the Bible. Those are the only words God Himself guaranteed to be truth.

 

 

 

[Musicman1228]

4 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Please be careful as you discuss here. First "The Law and the Prophets" really does not limit to these books but is still inclusive of the whole Bible.

Second, Eccl. was not yet considered a part of the Bible in Jesus' day. It did not get included in the Bible until around the time that Revelation was being written. So Jesus and Paul would not have been referring to Eccl. when writings about the scriptures.

The reason why it took so long to become a part of the Bible is because the Hebrews feared that it would be misunderstood. At the end of the book is a chiastic structure poem. The middle (thus important point) can be translated "All of this will come under judgment" Eccl. was a collection of false teachings that the writer was warning us NOT to believe. with portions of chapter 11 and 12 being what the writer saw as truth. So we need to be careful with using Eccl. as proof texts.

Now the author of Eccl. said that he wanted to be fair in his description of these dangerous beliefs, showing them in a good light so that you could see that some of these would be tempting to believe (and there are beautiful things in that book but careful study shows that the good we can bring out of that book is taking part of what it says out of context and thus place the words in a true setting) but as a whole the book is a book of ideas that the author is trying to warn us not to accept. 

Thank you for mentioning textual criticism in a Biblical context. The Council of Leodicea in c. 325 CE had  been given the daunting task of determining the roster of writings that should appear in the new compendium that was to later become known as the New Testament. This council was established by Emperor Constantine in order to aid the Emperor in bringing together the many disparate religious factions that were fracturing the Roman Empire. The purpose was not to disseminate truth, but to keep his empire together. It worked, for a time. Yet somehow Christians came to believe that this 'Bible' came to be as a direct result of God personally speaking ALL of the words in this bible directly to the writers that by the luck of the draw appear within its covers. This became known as Sola Scriptura, and is the basis for the belief that the Bible is the Holy, inerrant, inviolate, inspired 100% word of God from cover to cover, including the cover. Christians want to believe this, because they want to not have to decide for themselves based on facts, what is true and what is not. From this I have gained the understanding that the parable/prophecy of Jesus of the Wheat and the Weeds (Matt. 13:24-30) shows that there are weeds (lies) in the same field (Bible) as is the Wheat (truth). And this would make sense, given that Jesus told His own disciples that they were responsible for 'not being deceived' (Matt. 24:4-5). If it was impossible to not be deceived by believing in a single written source, then Jesus would have lied when He gave the that specific parable/prophecy. 

[Samie]

28 minutes ago, Musicman1228 said:

Samie, If humans cannot do anything that is righteous

Humans can; we all can. We are all In Christ because God saved Adam the day he sinned, an act that cost Him His only Begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

30 minutes ago, Musicman1228 said:

Time and again Jesus promised reward based on performance:

The righteous acts performed are acts of overcoming evil with good using the power of Christ, as I pointed out in my earlier post and backed up with Jesus' own words.

[Musicman1228]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Humans can; we all can. We are all In Christ because God saved Adam the day he sinned, an act that cost Him His only Begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

The righteous acts performed are acts of overcoming evil with good using the power of Christ, as I pointed out in my earlier post and backed up with Jesus' own words.

We are close to agreement in that  we both understand that righteousness is important. In your model, however, righteousness has no bearing at all on salvation, because you believe that our deeds don't count toward salvation. It is my understanding that what Jesus taught in the Gospel of the Kingdom is that in order to qualify for the penalty payment to apply to you you must go through the process of Sanctification, which is to put the words of truth that Jesus brought from the Father in heaven to earth into PRACTICE, and replace all lies in your life with only truth. Rev. 12:17 confirms this, because those that are born of the Woman of Chapter 12 (the Holy Spirit) are brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ and demonstrate this by 'keeping the Commandments of God, and holding to the testimony of Jesus'. That testimony IS NOT the testimony of anyone other that Jesus Christ Himself, that He gave to His own eyewitness disciples. Jesus guaranteed His words to His own disciples in John 17:20, and John 14:26. Jesus knew that people would come along and claim to be 'of Christ', and teach things that are NOT what Jesus taught while He was on earth 'in the flesh'.

2Jn 1:6  And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

2Jn 1:8  Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

2Jn 1:9  Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

2Jn 1:10  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;

2Jn 1:11  for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds

[Samie]

14 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

We are close to agreement in that  we both understand that righteousness is important. In your model, however, righteousness has no bearing at all on salvation, . . .

You misread me, brother.

Again, acts of righteousness are simply acts of overcoming evil with good. And only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life. And only those whose names remain written in the book of life will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals. All others will suffer God's wrath and finally thrown into the lake of fire.

Our righteous acts are not what makes us In Christ because Christ said we can do NOTHING while yet apart from Him. Instead, our righteous acts prove we are already In Christ because we can already do SOMETHING. And being In Christ means we are already heaven-bound UNLESS our names are blotted out from the book of life when we die because we did not overcome evil with good while alive.

In your model, it is our righteous acts that make us In Christ and get us to heaven.  That is directly opposed to Jesus' statement that while yet apart from Him man can do NOTHING.

In my model, it is our being In Christ that get us there. Our righteous acts - overcoming evil with good - while alive is made possible because we are In Christ and we have His Power to become overcomers. Those who allow evil to overcome them instead of overcoming evil with good while alive, Jesus will blot out from the book of life when they die.  There' s hope while alive.

[Musicman1228]

19 hours ago, Samie said:

Samie, I am sorry I am so dense, but I just don't understand what you mean by 'being in Christ'. How is it possible for a person to be 'in Christ' if they have any sin in them? Jesus has no sin in Him. So how is it that He would be able to, or even want to, have someone 'in' Him that has sin in them that would put sin in the very person in which there is not sin-that is, Jesus Himself? What steps must a person take to be able in order to have continue to have sin IN them, yet be IN Christ, who has no sin in Him?

[Musicman1228]

Back to the topic.

By eating of the fruit of the forbidden Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil Adam and Eve demonstrated that they were not Righteous. The garden represented the Righteous Kingdom of God on earth, and since this Kingdom can contain no one in it that is unrighteous God evicted Adam and Eve from the garden, sending them out into the kingdom of the World where sin already existed in the nations of the earth. God did not show 'grace' to Adam and Eve by letting them stay in the garden in their sin. God did not tell Adam and Eve that their sinning did not matter, that He loved them anyway, and that He would save them IN their sin if they would only demonstrate faith in Him/Them; faith the He would save them by His grace. Instead, God cast both Adam and Eve out of the garden in order to preserve as Holy and separate a location where someday God could place a righteous people that would have the same righteous character as do They (Father, Son, Holy Spirit Mother). God postponed the carrying out of the sentence of death that He placed on them the instant that Adam ate the fruit that Eve handed to Him.

Gen 3:11  And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"

Then something happened that most people miss when reading this passage. Most people think Adam blamed Eve for giving Him the fruit to eat, and in doing this placed the woman in subjugation to man, forever in a secondary position of female to male. This is absolutely NOT what happened. Adam proceeded to blame GOD.

Gen 3:12  The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."

Adam could have defused the situation by first refusing to eat the fruit, but this did not happen. Then, rather than trying to make excuses he could have simply said to God, "I have no excuse for having disobeyed you, please forgive me." Can you imagine God NOT forgiving Adam? Even in this situation Adam and Eve could have learned Righteousness, which proves they were not righteous before this event took place. But Adam didn't say this, so God had to make an adjustment to His promise to execute both Adam and Eve for their sin of disobedience. Why? The nations of the earth were already completely under Satan's rule (Isa. 14:12). So God had created a sinless being (Adam) and placed him in a 'safe' location (the garden) in which God would teach him righteousness, so that Adam could go out into the world and teach the truth about God to the people of the nations that had fallen under the spell of this being of light, Lucifer, who claimed to be the 'creator' of the earth and all that was in it, including the nations. The nations believed this because Satan was very persuasive. God wanted to train Adam (with Eve) to go into the world and tell the nations that this being that claimed to be god was not the God of Creation, but was an imposter. Yet Satan derailed that process by intercepting Adam and Eve at the Tree, and through guile and deception convinced them that if they did in fact disobey God that God would not kill them.

It is interesting that God allowed Satan access to the garden in the first place. Why would God feel that HE had to do this? Satan had made the accusation against God in the court in Heaven that God was unfair in His dealings with His created beings. Lucifer said (inferred from Job and Isaiah) that God ruled using the fear of the punishment of death for disobedience, and that the created beings in the universe obeyed God from fear not from Love. This accusation is still being made today. Satan demanded access to the garden so that he could have access to these two newly created humans, in order to show them his idea of what the truth in the universe actually looked like. If God had denied this demand the that would have proved Satan's point. THIS is why God told Adam and Eve to not go near the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; to protect them from Satan UNTIL they had learned enough about God to understand His true nature, and learn to be righteous IN FACT, which is the only true protection anyone has against Satan.

Adam and Eve were deceived, and as such failed to learn righteousness while they were still in the garden. So God provided a way for them to be able to STILL learn righteousness, just not in the garden where they would have been under the direct protection and instruction of their Creator. The garden was the first iteration of the Kingdom of Heaven on earth; a place made separate, Holy, in the world but not OF the world. The Kingdom of the Heavens is reserved for people that have demonstrated righteousness by obedience to the Commands of God. That is why NO ONE that is NOT RIGHTEOUS in fact will ever be able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

(To be continued)

 

 

[Samie]

On 21/06/2016 at 0:57 AM, Musicman1228 said:

Samie, I am sorry I am so dense, but I just don't understand what you mean by 'being in Christ'. How is it possible for a person to be 'in Christ' if they have any sin in them? Jesus has no sin in Him. So how is it that He would be able to, or even want to, have someone 'in' Him that has sin in them that would put sin in the very person in which there is not sin-that is, Jesus Himself? What steps must a person take to be able in order to have continue to have sin IN them, yet be IN Christ, who has no sin in Him?

Christ said no one can come to Him UNLESS the Father draws him: 

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KJV John 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

This God's drawing of people to Christ will be done through Christ nailed to the cross:

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KJV John 12:32-33   32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.  33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

In Revelation, God revealed to John that people are washed clean from sin by the blood of Jesus:

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KJV Revelation 1:5   And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

People were drawn to Jesus - hence are In Christ - and washed from sin on the cross. Being washed clean from sin, what sin remains we were not washed from? Yes, we sin now, but these sins - we were already washed from by the blood of Jesus on the cross - God remembers NO MORE:

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KJV Hebrews 10:16-17   16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;  17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Because of what the Father did FOR us through Christ, we are In Him. Our being In Christ is God's work FOR man. BUT we - through His, and enabled by His, Power - need to overcome evil with good (do righteous acts) or get blotted out from the book of life.

[Musicman1228]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Christ said no one can come to Him UNLESS the Father draws him: 

This God's drawing of people to Christ will be done through Christ nailed to the cross:

In Revelation, God revealed to John that people are washed clean from sin by the blood of Jesus:

People were drawn to Jesus - hence are In Christ - and washed from sin on the cross. Being washed clean from sin, what sin remains we were not washed from? Yes, we sin now, but these sins - we were already washed from by the blood of Jesus on the cross - God remembers NO MORE:

Because of what the Father did FOR us through Christ, we are In Him. Our being In Christ is God's work FOR man. BUT we - through His, and enabled by His, Power - need to overcome evil with good (do righteous acts) or get blotted out from the book of life.

Thanks, Samie, that is helpful. Yet there still seems to be something missing. Yes, everyone must come to the Father through Jesus. But exactly how does this work? This 'drawing' takes on an interesting dynamic because most Christians believe that it was the cross that saves them, yet when you look at the cross today what is it that you see? Is Jesus still on the cross? Is it simply His death on the cross that saves you? And, as you have said, even though we have been 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' we still sin. Does not this mean that we have become filthy all over again? So where do the words of Jesus affect ANY of this? If all you need do is believe in the 'cross' to be saved, what is the point of learning and knowing anything else about salvation and how it works? The SDA church (when I was in academy) taught salvation by sanctification. We don't see or hear about that factor anymore. Today in Adventism and in the rest of Christianity, Salvation is a 'free gift of grace through faith', and this concept seems to negate EVERYTHING that Jesus spoke to His own disciples while He was here on earth.  That is because (according to the adherents to Paul) the gospel that Jesus taught His own disciples has now been replaced after the cross by the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. But if that is the case, Samie, what was the purpose of Jesus coming to the earth actually for? If it was just for Jesus to be killed on the cross, and that would by itself save us from our sins, then why go through the one year of the intense training of His disciples in order to fulfill the Great Commission in Matt. 28:18-20? What was the point of Him teaching The Gospel of the Kingdom to anyone? And why say the prayer to His Father seen in John 17, in which He speaks of Sanctification by HIS words as being the thing that would bring people to righteousness? And why, Samie, make a bid deal about just WHO are the 'rest of HER offspring' in Rev. 12:17, that is, "Those that keep the Commandments of God, and hold to the TESTIMONY OF JESUS", if none of that matters? And why even bother to mention the 4th Commandment if keeping the Commandments has nothing to do with salvation? Help me out here, Samie, because in your model of salvation that you have received from the 'apostle' Paul, there is no need for ANYTHING that Jesus spoke while here on earth. Paul even goes so far as to say that his gospel is different from that which was being preached from Jerusalem, and that anyone that believed THAT gospel should be cursed, even an angel from heaven:

Gal 1:8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal 1:9  As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

The disciples (John, Peter) of the Jerusalem council heard the words of Jesus from His own lips, yet Paul is so sure that his gospel is the correct one that he makes the above statement. 

Please clear all this up for me, Samie. Thanks.

 

[Samie]

39 minutes ago, Musicman1228 said:

Help me out here, Samie, because in your model of salvation that you have received from the 'apostle' Paul, there is no need for ANYTHING that Jesus spoke while here on earth.

I am sorry if until now you are misunderstanding me.

Where in any of my posts to you did I mention any statement of Paul the Apostle? In my discussion with others who, like me, believe in the whole of the Bible, Yes, I refer to Paul. But  NEVER in any of my posts to you. How could you charge me with receiving my model of salvation from Paul and NOT from Jesus when I  only referred to the words of Jesus and NEVER for even once to Paul's words, as you do?

And why did you say that in my model of salvation "there is no need for ANYTHING that Jesus spoke while here on earth"? Did you easily forget that one of the first verses I referred to records what Jesus said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING? In fact, this statement of Jesus is the one I used to refute what you are teaching that man can do RIGHTEOUS deeds while NOT yet In Christ.

[Musicman1228]

15 hours ago, Samie said:

I am sorry if until now you are misunderstanding me.

Where in any of my posts to you did I mention any statement of Paul the Apostle? In my discussion with others who, like me, believe in the whole of the Bible, Yes, I refer to Paul. But  NEVER in any of my posts to you. How could you charge me with receiving my model of salvation from Paul and NOT from Jesus when I  only referred to the words of Jesus and NEVER for even once to Paul's words, as you do?

And why did you say that in my model of salvation "there is no need for ANYTHING that Jesus spoke while here on earth"? Did you easily forget that one of the first verses I referred to records what Jesus said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING? In fact, this statement of Jesus is the one I used to refute what you are teaching that man can do RIGHTEOUS deeds while NOT yet In Christ.

Actually, Samie, I understand you all too well. My esteemed father-in-law (now dead) whom I loved was an Adventist pastor for some 58 years, and in spite of his protests to the contrary EVERYTHING he preached or wrote was informed either by EGW, or Paul, or both; and the meaning of the words of Jesus that did come from His eyewitnesses were seen and used by him to promote the gospel of God that Paul taught. If I am not mistaken, you are an Adventist pastor working in the Philippines, and as such you receive your salary from that organization. The Adventist church has 28 fundamental beliefs that you MUST adhere too in order to continue to be able to preach in an Adventist pulpit. So EVERYTHING you believe is filtered through those fundamental beliefs REGARDLESS AS TO WHETHER THEY ARE ACTUALLY TRUE. I am not saying that you are not correct in doing this, as that is part of the job description. And if you go against these 28 Fundamentals in any way you risk loosing your lively-hood. That could be a very dangerous risk to take. Yet in your description as to the meaning of 'IN Christ' you used the words of Jesus (yes), and then applied the meaning that Paul and EGW associate with those words. Your filters do not allow you to see alternate meanings or interpretations. I know this is VERY difficult to do, because I have gone through the same process, and it is painful. It was painful for me to realize that I had been fooled/deceived by the words of both an 'apostle' and a 'prophet' that I had once revered. It was not until I recognized the deception that I realized how badly I (personally) had been fooled. It is not up to me to say that YOU have been fooled by a belief that is not consistent with what Jesus said to His own eyewitness disciples, that is for you to decide. But if you are not willing to temporarily set aside what you believe (in total), and look at your belief system through the eyes of a child, you can never truly KNOW whether what you believe is IN FACT True. Is doing that not worth the risk? IF the salvation model you (and most Christians) use is proven wrong by testing, then is not that worth knowing. And if your current salvation model is proven correct by testing, is that not worth the effort? That is the entire reason I am here on this forum. I am NOT here to tell you what to believe. I am here to tell you that you must KNOW what you believe and WHY. If you were reared as and SDA you know the level of systemic and institutional indoctrination that happens when you spend 12 years in elementary school, and 4-6 years in university being taught from a very specific set of paradigms that you have come to believe with your whole heart. To set this aside f(or a time) and look at yourself in complete honesty is nearly impossible under these conditions , but it is what Jesus came to earth to teach us; that we must look at everything with fresh eyes and an open heart in order to find TRUTH. 

[Robert]

On 6/14/2016 at 10:31 AM, Samie said:

Rom 5:12 does not prove all are born in sin.  Adam was created perfect yet he sinned.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...Verse 14: "through one (Adam's)  transgression there resulted condemnation to all men"

Romans 3: 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one"

Romans 3:23 ...For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Job 15:14 “What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

 

 

 

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Actually, Samie, I understand you all too well.

You don't.

You don't even know the difference between what I teach and what the SDA Church teaches. I think you need to know first from what are actually in my posts what I teach, instead of just resorting to surmising what you think I teach.

But back to the issue.

Again, when Christ said APART from Him man can do NOTHING, why do you oppose Him and teach that man can do righteous acts while yet APART from Christ? You say that you only base your doctrine upon what Jesus told His disciples, but here you are GLARINGLY opposing what He Himself told His disciples.

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NAS John 15:5   "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

[Musicman1228]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

You don't.

You don't even know the difference between what I teach and what the SDA Church teaches. I think you need to know first from what are actually in my posts what I teach, instead of just resorting to surmising what you think I teach.

But back to the issue.

Again, when Christ said APART from Him man can do NOTHING, why do you oppose Him and teach that man can do righteous acts while yet APART from Christ? You say that you only base your doctrine upon what Jesus told His disciples, but here you are GLARINGLY opposing what He Himself told His disciples.

You have made my point for me, Samie. I have read many (not all) of your posts on other threads to get a sense of what your basic positions are, so your first comment was inaccurate. The very fact that you THINK I disagree with you  on the issue of "apart from Him you can do nothing", but I have clearly said that I don't; I just have a different understanding about what Jesus said and what He meant than do you.  And remember, Samie, I am getting my information of TRUTH from the same source as are you, the Bible; just as Jesus got his understanding from the same source as his opponents, the religious leaders of Israel. It is clear that these leaders didn't like what Jesus was saying about their understanding of how salvation works, so much so that they conspire to murder Him. Of course, in that they were wholly unsuccessful. Do you see any correlation between them and us? You are sure your understanding is correct, and it may be. Yet I bring up issues about how salvation operates by asking questions that seem to show a difference in understanding, yet we are using the same source for our information. What does this suggest? Can both of our positions on these issues be correct, or is truth singular and absolute? So, given that I believe (to make it clear) that "apart from Jesus we can do nothing (righteous)", tell me please how you see my understanding differing with what Jesus told His own disciples while He was here on earth?

[Musicman1228]

5 hours ago, Robert said:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...Verse 14: "through one (Adam's)  transgression there resulted condemnation to all men"

Romans 3: 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one"

Romans 3:23 ...For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Job 15:14 “What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

 

 

 

Robert, nice to hear from you again. Since Paul said, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", and

Rom 3:10  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE."

Is there any example in the Bible of a righteous person living on the earth (excepting Jesus Himself)?

 

 

 

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...Verse 14: "through one (Adam's)  transgression there resulted condemnation to all men"

Romans 3: 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one"

Romans 3:23 ...For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Job 15:14 “What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Paul in Rom 5:12; 3:9, 23 does not say all are born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, Paul in those verses say that all sinned. Acts of sinning are done AFTER one is born, NOT BEFORE nor during one's birth. In fact just like me, you also believed Paul when he said all died when Christ died (2 Cor 5:14, 15). You just don't believe him when he said all were made alive TOGETHER with Jesus when He rose from the grave (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6).

David, in KJV Ps 51:5, says "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."  God our Father in heaven says in Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee."  Apply what God told Jeremiah and you will have David conceived in sin but born already sanctified. And those God sanctified, He made perfect forever (Heb 10:14).

Job 15:14 is a statement made by Eliphaz the Temanite, one of Job's 3 friends. Yet God rebuked Eliphaz for what he said:

Quote

NAS Job 42:7 And it came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right (a)as My servant Job has.

Next time, don't base your teaching upon what God rebukes. I suggest, instead of relying upon what Eliphaz said, rely on what the wisest man said:

Quote

NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

 

[Samie]

33 minutes ago, Musicman1228 said:

So, given that I believe (to make it clear) that "apart from Jesus we can do nothing (righteous)", tell me please how you see my understanding differing with what Jesus told His own disciples while He was here on earth?

I have already told you many times like a broken record.

Again, you were saying that "a person must become righteous IN FACT in order for the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross to count for them".  I understand your statement to mean that man starts out in life APART from Christ UNTIL the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross is counted for them. And for that penalty payment to count for a person, that person must first become righteous by doing righteous acts.

Did I understand you correctly? If I didn't, tell me exactly what you really mean.

But if my understanding of your statement is correct, then, you are teaching that while yet APART from Christ a person can do righteous acts which is directly against Christ's statement to His disciples that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

You just don't believe him when he said all were made alive TOGETHER with Jesus when He rose from the grave (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6).

This applies to our position "in Christ" who is in heaven.  This life you will not receive until the resurrection.  Then you will be sinless and not before.

[Robert]

Quote

David, in KJV Ps 51:5, says "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."  God our Father in heaven says in Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee." 

So God forced sanctification upon Jeremiah in his mother's womb?  No, sanctification is the result of accepting and resting in Christ's finished work.  Infants cognitively do not have ability to believe and place their faith in Christ.  Then what does God mean by "I sanctified thee"?  It simply means he "set-aside" Jeremiah for a special work.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Job 15:14 is a statement made by Eliphaz the Temanite, one of Job's 3 friends. Yet God rebuked Eliphaz for what he said:

Next time, don't base your teaching upon what God rebukes. I suggest, instead of relying upon what Eliphaz said, rely on what the wisest man said:

 

No, God didn't rebuke him for that statement.  

Here's the statement:  “What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous"

Here Eliphaz is not speaking of Job or God.  He is making a general, but accurate, statement.

God rebuked Job's 3 friends because they didn't speak right about God:

"I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me" Job 42:7

[Musicman1228]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

I have already told you many times like a broken record.

Again, you were saying that "a person must become righteous IN FACT in order for the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross to count for them".  I understand your statement to mean that man starts out in life APART from Christ UNTIL the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross is counted for them. And for that penalty payment to count for a person, that person must first become righteous by doing righteous acts.

Did I understand you correctly? If I didn't, tell me exactly what you really mean.

But if my understanding of your statement is correct, then, you are teaching that while yet APART from Christ a person can do righteous acts which is directly against Christ's statement to His disciples that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

Ah! Yes, you are correct in your statement of my belief in the first sentence of paragraph #1. You got that part correct. However, your assessment as found in the 2nd sentence of paragraph #1, and in paragraph #3 (above) is a completely false statement as to my belief. Now I know you are confused by this. And this, Samie, goes to your firm paradigm that stems from your belief in the words of someone that never knew Jesus while He was here on earth as either equal, but more probably over and above the words of Jesus that HE gave to His own disciples. I am getting my understanding of salvation ONLY from the words of God in the Old Testament Law and Prophets, and in Matthew, Mark (except for Mark 16:17-20 that are clearly not something Peter would have said), the gospel of John, and his letters, and Revelation. On the other hand, your version of Salvation is filtered through the other books of the New Testament, and here in lays the confusion. 

The salvation theology of Jesus can be summed up (but not limited too) the following verses:

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:19  "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20  "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Joh 3:21  "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Joh 5:30  "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Joh 5:46  "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

Joh 5:47  "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

Joh 6:56  "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Joh 8:31  So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Joh 8:32  and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

 

Joh 16:13  "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Joh 17:14  "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:17  "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

Joh 17:19  "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

Joh 17:20  "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

Joh 17:21  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

 

It is the words of Jesus that HE spoke that bring life. It is THOSE WORDS and no other that sanctify us in the Truth, and make us one with Jesus and the Father. And we understand THOSE words only through the teaching of the Holy Spirit, that will lead us into ALL of the truth found in THOSE WORDS. And for the purpose of this post I will end with a most important verse, which testifies to the reason that Jesus came to this earth, and that reason IS NOT only to die for our sins:

Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."

Joh 18:37  Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."

 

[Musicman1228]

(Topic continued)

So why were Adam and Eve NOT executed (Strongs #H4191:mooth, causatively to kill) as God told them that they would be, IF they ate from the forbidden Tree? 

To recap; God did not immediately kill Adam and Eve for their disobedience, because God needed a representative on earth with a message that would counter the lies with which Satan had deceived the nation (Isa. 14:12), that is, that Lucifer was the creator of the world, and that the nations of the earth must worship him. Satan was in possession of the earth based on the FACT that he had completely deceived and cause them to bow down to him. And since the Garden of Eden (the location of the Kingdom of the Heavens) was on the earth Satan had the RIGHT to have access that location in order to TRY to subvert Adam and Eve to his will. In order to abide by His own laws God allowed Satan this access, but God controlled the location, i.e., the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is why God told Adam and Eve:

Gen 2:16  The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;

Gen 2:17  but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

God commanded this in order to PROTECT Adam and Eve from the temptation and deception of Satan before they were ready to handle it. The were to have learned RIGHTEOUSNESS, and when this instruction was completed they would then be sealed in that righteousness, and would have been able to go into the world as fully righteous beings, who would be able to tell the truth about God without the fear of being deceived by Satan, who is the ruler of the earth. Alas, as we know, this did not happen.

Adam could have stopped the process of deception before it degenerated into disobedience because he was 'right there with her' (Gen. 3:6), and heard everything Satan said to Eve. Eve may have been deceived, but the real disobedience came from Adam, who WAS NOT DECEIVED, and disobeyed with conscious intent. 

For this Adam and Eve should have undergone the eternal punishment of the Second Death, from which NO ONE that is not completely righteous in fact can awaken. So, because God needed a Kingdom of the Heavens on earth to teach the nations about Righteousness, Justice, and the Kingdom of Heaven; and because God created the nations (Gen. 1:26-27) SINLESS but not righteous (and they fell); and because God created Adam and Eve SINLESS but not righteous (If Adam and Eve had been righteous they would not have been deceived); and because of the demands of the Law of Righteousness God passed judgement on the nations and Adam and Eve; and because of God's great love for His human creation He POSTPONED the execution of the judgement He had passed on the nations and on Adam and Eve, thereby giving those that would eventually inhabit the Kingdom of the Heavens (the offspring of the Woman see in Gen. 3:15 and Rev. 12:17- the Holy Spirit) on earth the opportunity to LEARN and PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS. The penalty for unrighteousness and disobedience is the Second Death. And this penalty MUST (BY LAW) be paid. Both Adam and Eve could have paid this penalty themselves, but then they would have died the Second death, and God would have had to start His creation all over again. This is not the outcome either Adam and Eve, or God desired for them or the nations. Therefore, Jesus said to His Father that HE would pay this penalty for the sins of the Kingdom of the Heavens and the world, at exactly the right time (ref. Passover in 30 C.E.)

Therefore, the Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt. 24:14, Matt. 28:18-20) that Jesus taught to His own eyewitness disciples states that in order to be given the opportunity for eternal life a person must 'enter the Kingdom of Heaven' (John 3:3,5). This is accomplished by being 'born of the Spirit', which means being committed to become disciple of Jesus, to learn and practice righteousness and justice through HIS words (John 8:31), by demonstrating love for God and His Laws by keeping His Commandments (John 14:14), and by entering the process of sanctification by practicing the deeds of TRUTH, which will bring you to the Light (righteousness)(John 3:21), and them becoming Sanctified through HIS words, because His words are TRUTH (John 17:17); then, by keeping the Commandments of God and holding to the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17) you become 'born of the Woman',  and only then will your penalty of death be paid by the ONE that can pay it and NOT die eternally - Jesus Christ the Son of God. The penalty that Jesus paid was the penalty of the Passover Lamb (Ex. 12), and THAT penalty is ONLY for the first born, or first fruits of the Kingdom of Heaven. This penalty was ONLY for the camp of Israel, that at that time was the Kingdom of Heaven. Now that Kingdom has passed to another people, but THAT 'people' have no idea who they are, or what they have been set apart from the world to accomplish. They believe that they are the bride, when in fact they are the 'bridesmaids' as seen in Matt. 25:1-13, that are to get the bride ready. They believe that their job is to take the gospel of God (salvation by grace through faith-the wide gate) to the world, little knowing that they are preaching the WRONG gospel. They should be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to the world. This is why we are 'not in heaven err this'.

Jesus DID NOT die for the sins of the world, except the world enter the Kingdom of Heaven through the narrow gate ((Matt. 7:13) which is the process described above. No one that practices lawlessness (Matt. 24:11-12), and believes that righteousness cannot be achieved through the power of the Holy Spirit (John 16:13-15) can enter the Kingdom of the Heavens. 

[LifeHiscost]

  

Jesus DID NOT die for the sins of the world, except the world enter the Kingdom of Heaven through the narrow gate ((Matt. 7:13) which is the process described above. No one that practices lawlessness (Matt. 24:11-12), and believes that righteousness cannot be achieved through the power of the Holy Spirit (John 16:13-15) can enter the Kingdom of the Heavens. 

 

 

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God is Love!~Jesus saves!