What Does It Really Mean to Be “Born Again”?

July 1, 2016

1 hour ago, Robert said:

No, Adam wasn't reinstated to a pre-fall status.

You believe God is agape yet at the same time preach He just watched Adam drown.

1 hour ago, Robert said:

If he was reinstated then his children would have been born without sin.

Of course, we are born In Christ.

1 hour ago, Robert said:

The problem with this idea is the Bible doesn't support it.

The Bile does support it; I have shown the verses. You just choose to believe and teach otherwise.

July 1, 2016

6 hours ago, Samie said:

The Bile does support it; I have shown the verses. You just choose to believe and teach otherwise.

2 Peter 3:15 ...as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, ¹⁶as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

July 1, 2016

18 hours ago, Robert said:

Adam and Eve were not tempted. If you think they were give me actual Biblical evidence. Eve, states Paul, was deceived. Adam knew Eve had been deceived and chose to die with her. In so doing he sinned, but neither were tempted.

By this rationale, I could claim that no one was ever tempted, including Cain and his descendants, and even Lot's wife and descendants--until the time of Abraham offering his son upon the altar. The Bible's first use of the concept of "tempt" was actually to speak of God tempting Abraham (Genesis 22:1). So, does the fact that the Bible makes no explicit reference to the serpent "tempting" Eve mean you won't believe she was tempted? Interesting. But I don't reason it that way. We know clearly, from the Bible, what the concept of "temptation" means. That concept was also clearly delineated in the story of Adam and Eve. However, again, following your apparent logic, David did not commit adultery with Bathsheba. There is absolutely zero use of the word "adultery" in that story. Nevertheless, the story itself is clear, and the concept of adultery is clear. God expects us to reach reasonable conclusions. This is why He tells us to "study diligently" and to be "rightly dividing the word of truth" in order to "approved unto God."

I think you'd have a hard time selling the falsehood that David didn't commit adultery with Bathsheba to most reasonable Bible readers. The "Biblical evidence" is not to be found in the use of a particular word at all times, but is often in the description and the story itself.

Perhaps God, knowing how people would the more easily fall prey to unsound reasonings, gave us the writings of Ellen White to help make certain things more clear. She gives us the wording you seek: "But the serpent tempted Eve, and she tempted her husband, and they both ate of the forbidden tree." {EW 125.2} Both Adam and Eve were tempted.

Blessings.

July 1, 2016

48 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

By this rationale, I could claim that no one was ever tempted....

Everyone that came after Adam & Eve had fallen natures and were naturally tempted

July 1, 2016

53 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Perhaps God, knowing how people would the more easily fall prey to unsound reasonings, gave us the writings of Ellen White to help make certain things more clear. She gives us the wording you seek: "But the serpent tempted Eve, and she tempted her husband, and they both ate of the forbidden tree." {EW 125.2} Both Adam and Eve were tempted.

Ah, you are making Ellen White the measuring stick of truth. When I quote EGW I can back it up from the Bible.

Paul clearly states that Eve was deceived, not tempted. If tempted, how? How could a being created in God's image after His likeness be tempted? Yes?

July 1, 2016

34 minutes ago, Robert said:

Ah, you are making Ellen White the measuring stick of truth. When I quote EGW I can back it up from the Bible.

Paul clearly states that Eve was deceived, not tempted. If tempted, how? How could a being created in God's image after His likeness be tempted? Yes?

Ah…did David commit adultery with Bathsheba? If so, can you back it up from the Bible?

July 1, 2016

7 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Ah…did David commit adultery with Bathsheba? If so, can you back it up from the Bible?

David existed well after the fall....He had a fallen human nature. He was tempted from within....

July 1, 2016

"The mystery of iniquity" - what does this mean?

That our bent-to-self (i.e., a u-turn agape) is a mystery that can't be explained.

How could Adam & Eve sin when no mechanism was within them to tempt them to sin? Well, it's a mystery.

July 1, 2016

49 minutes ago, Robert said:

David existed well after the fall....He had a fallen human nature. He was tempted from within....

There is no question about that. But temptation is not sin, else Jesus would have been a sinner, for He was strongly tempted. Apparently, you believe that David did not commit the sin of adultery with Bathsheba since the Bible makes no mention of "adultery" in his case.

This is as far as my discussion with you need go. I would humbly entreat you to reconsider your hermeneutics. One's salvation may depend on the right understanding of God's Word.

July 1, 2016

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

There is no question about that. But temptation is not sin, else Jesus would have been a sinner, for He was strongly tempted.

Again, Adam & Eve were not tempted. They were deceived. They didn't understand the nature of sin.

Yes, it's not sin to be tempted, but the mechanism in you (i.e., your fallen nature) is sin. Paul calls it "sin living in me". The very fact you have Adam's fallen nature disqualifies you for heaven. Therefore you and I belong to a condemned humanity.

July 1, 2016

36 minutes ago, Robert said:

...it's not sin to be tempted, but the mechanism in you (i.e., your fallen nature) is sin. Paul calls it "sin living in me". The very fact you have Adam's fallen nature disqualifies you for heaven. Therefore you and I belong to a condemned humanity.

Not only do we belong to a condemned humanity, but we are born without God's Spirit and therefore our natures and minds are in complete harmony. What one desires the other desires also. Thus we are sinners by birth.

July 1, 2016

"Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments." GC 499

Again, I firmly take the position that Adam & Eve did not understand the nature of sin. Both ended up at "the tree of knowledge of good an evil" and both were deceived as to the nature of sin.

July 1, 2016

5 hours ago, Robert said:

Not only do we belong to a condemned humanity, but we are born without God's Spirit and therefore our natures and minds are in complete harmony. What one desires the other desires also. Thus we are sinners by birth.

Robert’s doctrine is the result when one believes in Augustine of Hippo instead of what Scriptures say:

^KJVEcclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

To the above verse Robert counters with David's statement:

^KJVPsalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Robert completely ignores what God Himself told Jeremiah:

^KJVJeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations

And Robert closes his eyes to the biblical fact that those God sanctified God also made perfect forever:

^KJVHebrews 10:10, 14 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

The sanctifying and the perfecting were all done by the Father thru the Son – the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Because of Christ, people are born sanctified and perfect in God’s eyes regardless of how Robert sees them thru the lenses of Augustine.

If my memory doesn’t fail me, I guess Robert at one time believed people are born justified, but now he says people are born spiritually dead in sin. He seems to be in a confused state.

July 2, 2016

1 hour ago, Samie said:

If my memory doesn’t fail me, I guess Robert at one time believed people are born justified, but now he says people are born spiritually dead in sin. He seems to be in a confused state.

You have utterly failed to differentiate between what is true of us "in Adam" and what is true of our new creation "in Christ". I've tried to correct you on this, but you won't listen.

July 2, 2016

15 minutes ago, Robert said:

You have utterly failed to differentiate between what is true of us "in Adam" and what is true of our new creation "in Christ".

Let me try again:

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Here, Paul is writing to the Ephesian believers. What did Paul state of their past?

They "were dead in trespasses and sins" before conversion
They walked "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air"
"We all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"

That's our position by birth.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...

Note that when were dead in trespasses (sins) God the Father placed our fallen life into Christ. In so doing He rewrote our history.

At the resurrection Christ made us (i.e., our new creation) spiritually alive and took this sinless creation to heaven "in Christ Jesus"

Of yourself you are a sinner because of Adam, but by placing your faith "in Christ" you will, at the 2nd coming, receive this "new creation" currently residing "in Christ Jesus".

July 2, 2016

14 minutes ago, Robert said:

Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...

Are you currently "in the heavenly places"? Of course not....

We, as children of fallen Adam, are here on planet earth.

So what's in Christ Jesus?

2 Cor 2:16 ... we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Before the cross Christ, as the son of man, was "of the seed of David according to the flesh", but after the resurrection He was no longer according to the flesh. The Divinity of Christ left our old Adamic life in the grave forever. In its place He was raised with a glorified, blameless humanity. That "new creation" is ours by faith, but we do not actually receive this life until the 2nd coming.

July 2, 2016

7 hours ago, Robert said:

You have utterly failed to differentiate between what is true of us "in Adam" and what is true of our new creation "in Christ".

No, sir. It is your belief in what Augustine taught and your disbelief in God's act of saving Adam through Christ that same day he sinned that led you to believe people are born spiritually dead in sin. You cannot understand why Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world hence you cannot believe that God saved Adam that same day he sinned thereby reinstating him through Christ to his pre-fall status.

You correctly teach that God is agape but you continue believing Augustine as if God is not agape because He did NOTHING to save Adam that day he sinned and simply watched Adam's nature morph from good to bad.

7 hours ago, Robert said:

I've tried to correct you on this, but you won't listen.

I listened. I just didn't believe what you learned from Augustine. I presented Scriptures but you ignored them.

July 2, 2016

7 hours ago, Robert said:

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Here, Paul is writing to the Ephesian believers. What did Paul state of their past?

They "were dead in trespasses and sins" before conversion

They walked "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air"

"We all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind"

That's our position by birth.

Wrong, brother, That's our position AFTER birth.

"Walking according to the course of this world", "conducting ourselves in the lusts of the flesh", "fulfilling the desires of the flesh", are acts done AFTER birth, NOT before nor during birth. That's why God is calling people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Repenting is simply overcoming evil with good. As Scriptures say, God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

July 2, 2016

7 hours ago, Robert said:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...

Note that when were dead in trespasses (sins) God the Father placed our fallen life into Christ. In so doing He rewrote our history.

Pls take note:

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

God’s act of making us alive TOGETHER with Christ was done when we were yet dead. We did not do anything and we cannot – we were yet dead – that induced God to make us alive. It was all because He is rich in mercy and because of His great love for us, as the verse EXPLICITLY says. God's making us alive was done when Christ resurrected. Peter calls this "begotten again" or "born again":

^KJV1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

But you teach that UNLESS people place their faith in Christ, they cannot be made alive. Hence, the making alive is not TOGETHER with Christ, but as each one believes. And in so doing, you not only rob God of the credit that solely belongs to Him and transfer it to man – a works-based salvation, but also requires what is impossible for the dead to do: do SOMETHING while yet dead.

This is why Jesus said APART from Him man can do NOTHING, because APART from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4), one is dead and can do NOTHING. But you require him who you say is yet dead and can do NOTHING to do SOMETHING: place his faith in Christ so he can be made alive.

July 2, 2016

Most preachers believe Augustine, many of them unknowingly, that people are born spiritually dead in sin, and therefore APART from Christ or NOT in Christ. For one to be in Christ, he has to believe first. This is the brand of gospel since the time of Luther that was preached to the world.

I believe it is about time to tell the world to believe that God through Christ has already made people spiritually alive INSTEAD of telling people to believe so they can be made alive. And perhaps, Christ can return. For me, how can He return when the gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again is not the gospel the world has known?

KJV Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

July 2, 2016

Let's take your theology to its ultimate conclusion:

If an infant is born holy, upright and blameless and then immediately dies at birth it does not need Christ Jesus, the Savior of mankind.

That simply means that deceased infants obtain heaven by their own righteousness and not the righteousness of Christ. Therefore what you are teaching is heresy. It denies Christ our righteousness and in His place erects man's self-righteousness, which is nothing more than filthy rags.

July 2, 2016

6 hours ago, Samie said:

You correctly teach that God is agape but you continue believing Augustine as if God is not agape because He did NOTHING to save Adam that day he sinned and simply watched Adam's nature morph from good to bad.

God doesn't always intervene in our first death. Point in case: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more." Jeremiah 31:15

God did not intervene in the butcher of these male children. To you that would mean God did nothing and simply watched them being butchered to death. While God did not intervene in their first death, He has intervened in their second death. God, through Christ, has saved the human race in Himself.

July 2, 2016

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Let's take your theology to its ultimate conclusion:

If an infant is born holy, upright and blameless and then immediately dies at birth it does not need Christ Jesus, the Savior of mankind.

You don't really understand my theology. The reason why "an infant is born holy, upright and blameless" is all because of Christ -the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! And you tell me an infant does not need Christ?

July 2, 2016

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

You don't really understand my theology. The reason why "an infant is born holy, upright and blameless" is all because of Christ -the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world! And you tell me an infant does not need Christ?

I don't think you really understand your theology, Samie.

You are still presenting a subtle form of legalism. Now you are claiming salvation comes from what Christ does in us, i.e., sanctification.

July 2, 2016

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

I don't think you really understand your theology, Samie.

You are still presenting a subtle form of legalism. Now you are claiming salvation comes from what Christ does in us, i.e., sanctification.

It's you teaching legalism, not me. You teach people to believe so they can be made alive,

I teach people to believe they had been made alive.

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