What Does It Really Mean to Be “Born Again”?

[Musicman1228]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Ohh really? Can you cite just one verse, please?

While waiting for you, here are two verses that the Spirit of the LORD is masculine:

KJV 2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

KJV Isaiah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

 

I guess you actually DIDN'T read my post explaining how this works. You have cited two verses that use one of the words for 'Spirit', and it is the same word in each case; Strong's H7303 - Ruach, which means (among other things) 'spirit', but only for a RATIONAL being. And as I stated above, in the OT it is always used in the feminine gender. This means that God's SPIRIT is not only the feminine characteristic of God, it is also a RATIONAL being, with a mind, a personality, and a name all HER own. It seems you don't want to acknowledge this as a fact, so do your own research and prove me wrong. The original translators could not allow a 'feminine' for God to appear in 'Scripture', because this would take away power from the male dominated 'all powerful' Roman Catholic Church (RCC), so this is why all forms of the words for Holy Spirit in the early translations referenced the Spirit of God as male. If you want to believe that God is all male all the time, leaving no God being for women to worship, then you are siding with the RCC and it's 'infallible' understanding of Scripture. Have at it.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Yes , through Christ's sacrifice justification and sanctification are available to all, and Paul is speaking to those in the church who through faith were justified and through obedience to the truth are being sanctified.

No, no, no....We stand already justified, sanctified and glorified in Christ. 

1 Cor 1:30 Because of God you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God. In Christ we are put right with God (justification), and have been made holy (sanctification), and have been set free from sin (glorification).

"In Christ" (the gospel) we have already been justified, sanctified and glorified.  That means in Christ God's work is finished.  

[Samie]

8 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

I guess you actually DIDN'T read my post explaining how this works. You have cited two verses that use one of the words for 'Spirit', and it is the same word in each case; Strong's H7303 - Ruach, which means (among other things) 'spirit', but only for a RATIONAL being. And as I stated above, in the OT it is always used in the feminine gender. This means that God's SPIRIT is not only the feminine characteristic of God, it is also a RATIONAL being, with a mind, a personality, and a name all HER own. It seems you don't want to acknowledge this as a fact, so do your own research and prove me wrong. The original translators could not allow a 'feminine' for God to appear in 'Scripture', because this would take away power from the male dominated 'all powerful' Roman Catholic Church (RCC), so this is why all forms of the words for Holy Spirit in the early translations referenced the Spirit of God as male. If you want to believe that God is all male all the time, leaving no God being for women to worship, then you are siding with the RCC and it's 'infallible' understanding of Scripture. Have at it.

Can you cite any verse where  x;Wr Ruach is feminine?  And any verse on n'shamah?  Or there's none you can't cite even one?

Your post quoted above is your own words and NOTHING from the words of Jesus NOR from the law and the prophets in the OT. And you claim you only teach what Jesus said and what are written in the law and in the prophets?  You cannot even cite one single verse backing up your claim on the HS's feminine gender. It is quite clear to me that what you are teaching are your own concoctions and NOTHING from Jesus Who referred to the HS as a HE instead of a SHE as what you are teaching.

[Samie]

12 hours ago, Robert said:

Let me rephrase:

Thus we all, automatically, sinned at some primal level during our development in our mothers' womb. Remember sin is anything outside agape love.

Scriptures? All mouth and no scriptures don't count.

[Samie]

On 27/06/2016 at 4:17 AM, Musicman1228 said:

God the Mother, who is the Holy Spirit

^KJV John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

^BGT John 16:13 o[tan de. e;lqh| evkei/noj( to. pneu/ma th/j avlhqei,aj( o`dhgh,sei u`ma/j evn th/| avlhqei,a| pa,sh|\ ouv ga.r lalh,sei avfV e`autou/( avllV o[sa avkou,sei lalh,sei kai. ta. evrco,mena avnaggelei/ u`mi/nÅ

 

^KJV Matthew 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

^BGT Matthew 9:21 e;legen ga.r evn e`auth/|\ eva.n mo,non a[ywmai tou/ i`mati,ou auvtou/ swqh,somaiÅ

 

e`autou pronoun reflexive genitive masculine singular from e`autou

e`auth/| pronoun reflexive dative feminine singular from e`autou/

Musicman1228 seems to be out of tune as to the gender of the HS. He claims his teaching is from what Jesus Himself taught yet in the gender of the HS, he is 180 degrees apart from what Jesus said.

[Musicman1228]

Gender is not just about the word itself, as Samie seems to think. It is also about the usage of the word in the context in which the word is used. You can go to Strong's and look up the word usages as well as the definitions of the words, and it will tell you the 'gender usage' of the word. This does not mean that the word itself is either masculine or feminine, but how it is used as such in context. Yes, the Greek language does have words for 'her' and 'him', 'herself' and 'himself'. This is the meaning of the word on it's own outside of context. But nouns in Greek do not carry a gender component outside of their contextual usage. I am not an expert at this, and yet if it were impossible to decipher truth from the words in the Bible in any language then God is giving humanity an impossible task in finding the truth of salvation. Let me give you another example:

John 21:15 - "Feed my lambs". Strong's G721 - arnion; Diminutive from G704; a lambkin: - lamb. This indicates a immature lamb of less than a year old.

Rev 5:6  And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain; This 'Lamb' is 'arnion'.

arēn, ar-ane', Perhaps the same as G730; a lamb (as a male): - lamb, on year old. 

Exo 12:5  'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

We are told that the Passover lamb had to be a male lamb one year old, in order to qualify as the sacrifice. The word Jesus used to demonstrate WHO the little lambs were that Peter was to feed, that is, the 'lambkin', or little lambs, the relatives or 'kin' of the Lamb. Yet in Revelation 5:6 we see that the word the translators used to describe THIS Lamb that 'had been slain' or sacrificed was 'arnion' or little lamb. This goes against the requirement for righteousness defined for the Passover Lamb in Ex. 12:5.  Why didn't the translators use another available word, 'aren', as the word that would describe this Lamb precisely? There is a conflict of interest here, that probably stemmed from the fact that the scribes that there are multiple words with multiple meanings that could possibly be used, and in picking the word to use the translators did not know nor understand the requirement that the Lamb for the Passover sacrifice be a 'male lamb on year old, and unblemished'.

This is what we are up against when dealing with translation error in Scripture. It is the context that tells us the meaning as much as the words themselves. So what is the context of the use of the term Holy Spirit?  Rev. 12 CLEARLY describes a Woman IN HEAVEN, that is of the Royal Family, and that gives birth to the Son of God. This woman is a SYMBOL that represents that part of God that can and does GIVE BIRTH to wholly righteous offspring; Her first born Son, and the 'rest of Her offspring'.

Gen 3:15  And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

The Woman in this verse is also a SYMBOL, because the 'YOU' in this verse references the Serpent that is a SYMBOL for Satan. In this verse God is speaking of the OFFSPRING of the Woman (a literal spiritual being), and the OFFSPRING of Satan (a literal spiritual being). Therefore, all of these OFFSPRING are also LITERAL SPIRITUAL BEINGS. The symbols MUST match. If the offspring spoken of in this verse were PHYSICAL beings then the only possible understanding for this verse would be that physical human beings would be fighting literal snakes (offspring of serpents), and this would be far from the context of fighting a SPIRITUAL battle.

Joh 3:6  "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:12  "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

We must be 'born of the Spirit' to enter the Kingdom of God. This is the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus came to teach to the world (Matt. 24:14). The ONLY type of entity that can give birth is a Woman that becomes a MOTHER because of act of giving birth. Therefore, since it is the Holy Spirit that gives birth to those who wish to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, THAT SPIRIT must be the feminine part of the Godhead, the gender role of whom is to 'give birth' to the 'rest of Her offspring, those that keep the Commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ' (Rev. 12:17).

 

 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

Paul was no longer a slave to sin because through Christ he was able to serve the law of God.

What are you writing about?  Come back down to earth, please.  We were discussing our entrance into this world. 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

How could Christ be our example and be tempted in all things as we if He didn't have our fallen nature?

You really need to do some homework.  Christ is God.  It was never His nature. Here's Ellen White:

He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature,

[Samie]

5 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Gender is not just about the word itself, as Samie seems to think.

Not what Samie thinks but what Jesus said:

^KJV John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

^BGT John 16:13 o[tan de. e;lqh| evkei/noj( to. pneu/ma th/j avlhqei,aj( o`dhgh,sei u`ma/j evn th/| avlhqei,a| pa,sh|\ ouv ga.r lalh,sei avfV e`autou/( avllV o[sa avkou,sei lalh,sei kai. ta. evrco,mena avnaggelei/ u`mi/nÅ

evkei/noj pronoun demonstrative nominative masculine singular from evkei/noj

e`autou pronoun reflexive genitive masculine singular from e`autou

You claim to teach what Jesus said yet you insist the HS is a SHE directly against what Jesus said the HS is a HE.

And until now you have not cited a single verse from the OT that the Spirit is a SHE. All you have are your own words without any Bible verse to back them up.

[Green Cochoa]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

You really need to do some homework.  Christ is God.  It was never His nature. Here's Ellen White:

He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature,

If one reads Mrs. White's writings carefully, and takes in a number of her statements on this subject collectively and in context, it can be discerned that Christ took upon Himself man's fallen physical/fleshly nature, but NOT man's fallen spiritual nature.  She says decidedly that He had no propensity (tendency/inclination) toward sin.  If Christ had had a "fallen" or "sinful" spiritual nature, it could only have meant one thing: He had sinned.  But He never sinned by even so much as a thought, according to Mrs. White.  These things should be obvious to Adventist Christians.  To make them all clear via her statements would make for a very long post, but for those who wish to do their own homework, let me give some key terms to use when researching from the Ellen White CD.  They are:

"likeness of sinful flesh"

"sinless nature"

"sinful nature"

"fallen nature"

"could not keep the law"

"corrupt nature"

"corruption nature" /5

"spiritual nature"

Or, you can do a combined search by copy/pasting the following line:

("likeness of sinful flesh" OR "sinless nature" OR "sinful nature" OR "fallen nature" OR "could not keep the law" OR "corrupt nature" OR "corruption nature" /5 OR "spiritual nature") AND (jesus OR christ OR savior OR saviour)

The key term, as I see it, is "likeness," which I bolded among the terms above.  A likeness is a replica, but it is not equal to the original.  Jesus did not have sinful flesh.  He had its likeness.  The part He lacked was the experiential knowledge of sin, with its propensities and habits--for He never sinned.  The part He had was the physical frame, degraded by sin for nearly 4000 years.  But flesh, of itself, is not sin, nor can it sin.  Sins are actions of the mind, not the flesh.  Christ had no mental inclination to sin.  

"The human nature of Christ was like unto ours. And suffering was really more keenly felt by Him, for His spiritual nature was free from every taint of sin." -- EGW.

As pertains to the topic for this thread, the born-again Christian will, like Christ, have no inclination to sin.  (See 1 John 3:9-10.)

[Samie]

To be "born again" is to be "made alive" spiritually. Why? Because it was what God did FOR man when Jesus resurrected:

NKJ 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

NKJ Ephesians 2:4-5   4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,  5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.

For me, to teach the pure gospel is to teach people to believe they had been made alive (grace-based salvation) INSTEAD OF teaching people to believe so they can be made alive (works-based salvation).

[Robert]

21 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

As pertains to the topic for this thread, the born-again Christian will, like Christ, have no inclination to sin.  (See 1 John 3:9-10.)

Christ as God had no inclination, but as "the son of man" He was tempted as we are, but more severely.  

How are we tempted?  By our fallen nature.  

As I stated, Christ was tempted far more than any human has ever or will ever be tempted.  How so?  

On the cross Christ's Father abandoned Him - thus the hope of the resurrection went too because Christ was depending on His Father to raise Him from the dead.  Having been abandoned to the 2nd death Christ was tempted to come down off the cross and save Himself.  He was tempted by our "bent-to-self"...He was tempted to save His own skin and let the fallen, human race perish.  

Keep in mind Christ handed over the independent use of His Divinity to His Father at the incarnation.  On the cross Christ was tempted to grab hold of His Divinity, against His Father's will, and come down off the cross and save Himself.  That's being tempted by our love of self. That temptation comes from fallen, human nature.  

Who are you kidding? 

 

[Green Cochoa]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

As I stated, Christ was tempted far more than any human has ever or will ever be tempted.  

I agree with this.  Nor did I ever disagree.  Having no inclination to sin does not mean He had no temptation.  

(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; Hebrews 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted.

There is only one type of human nature and that's fallen, human nature.

I believe you are trying to over think this.  Christ, the son of man, was tempted, period!

The Bible states that God (Deity) cannot be tempted. See James 1:13

But as a man, i.e., of the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, He was tempted as we are.  See Heb 4:15  

Temptation comes from within.  See Mark 7:21

 

[Robert]

Quote

He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature,

Let's break EGW's statement down:

Divinity took upon Its sinless nature OUR sinful nature.

In other words Christ is God.  He has always been God.  There was never a beginning for Him because He has always existed. 

At the incarnation God the Father united the Divinity of Christ with our fallen humanity in the womb of Mary. This produced Christ as the son of man.  This life was "of the seed of David according to the flesh (Sarx: fallen human nature).

Why is this important? Because according to God's law the sinner must die. In Romans 6:6 Paul states "your old life (from fallen Adam) was crucified with Christ so that the body of sin might be done away with."  Romans 7:4 states that "you died to the law in the body of Christ"

How did your old life die with Christ if He did not assume Adam's life after the fall?

 

[Green Cochoa]

22 minutes ago, Robert said:

There is only one type of human nature and that's fallen, human nature.

I believe you are trying to over think this.  Christ, the son of man, was tempted, period!

The Bible states that God (Deity) cannot be tempted. See James 1:13

But as a man, i.e., of the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, He was tempted as we are.  See Heb 4:15  

Temptation comes from within.  See Mark 7:21

 

Perhaps you are the one over-thinking this.  Perhaps internet forum culture has persuaded you to think that usually a response to a post is a disagreement to the post.  I, however, responded to your earlier post, not in disagreement, but in agreement, and saw my remarks as simply adding to what you had said.

However, do not forget that temptation can come to a sinless being, both from without (consider Adam) and from within (consider Lucifer).

Blessings.

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

However, do not forget that temptation can come to a sinless being, both from without (consider Adam) and from within (consider Lucifer).

 

 Adam and Eve were not tempted.  If you think they were give me actual Biblical evidence.  Eve, states Paul, was deceived.  Adam knew Eve had been deceived and chose to die with her.  In so doing he sinned, but neither were tempted.

[LifeHiscost]

The Word is sufficient for me.

7Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life^a is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers^b does not belong to God.....1 John 3 NLT

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[LifeHiscost]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

Actually, you are absolutely in error here.  Adam and Eve were not tempted. 

Why do you think God warned them then, to stay away from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? What reason would there have been for the devil to be shrewd with them or to lie  about God?

1The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”

2“Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. 3“It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’”

4“You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5“God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.”

6The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. 7At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves....Genesis 3 NLT

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

3 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Why do you think God warned them then, to stay away from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Because God knew that they would be deceived. They sinned out of ignorance.  They had no desire to sin because both were created in the likeness and image of God.  They knew only agape love.  

[Robert]

Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. GC 493

[Samie]

37 minutes ago, Robert said:

Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love which is the foundation of the divine government. GC 493

Definitions of sin in the Bible: Rom 4:23; 1 John 3:4; 5:17; James 4:17

[Samie]

When Adam fell into sin, the sin committed separated him from God. Did God do nothing that day to save him from sin? Did God just fold His hands and simply watched Adam's nature morph from good to bad?

I believe God saved Adam from sin that day and reinstated him to his pre-fall status by implementing the Plan of Salvation He devised before the foundation of the world, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  The plan of salvation - God's saving act that transformed Adam to be In Christ for no other name under heaven was given among men for their salvation - was manifested in the life, death, resurrection and high priestly ministry of our Lord in heaven.

This, for me, is the essence of the gospel.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

When Adam fell into sin, the sin committed separated him from God. Did God do nothing that day to save him from sin? Did God just fold His hands and simply watched Adam's nature morph from good to bad?

I believe God saved Adam from sin that day and reinstated him to his pre-fall status by implementing the Plan of Salvation He devised before the foundation of the world, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  The plan of salvation - God's saving act that transformed Adam to be In Christ for no other name under heaven was given among men for their salvation - was manifested in the life, death, resurrection and high priestly ministry of our Lord in heaven.

This, for me, is the essence of the gospel.

The Bible delineates:

1) that all died with Christ (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9), and

2) that all were made alive together with Him (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13, 14).

In #1, He carried with Him all our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet 2:24) because we were fashioned into His body (Eph 2:11-19) such that when He - the Head -  died, we, being parts of His body, died likewise. And in #2, when the Head resurrected, the body was likewise resurrected, made alive TOGETHER with Him, hence born again through the resurrection of Jesus our Savior and Lord (1 Pet 1:3).  Both are God’s work FOR man. All grace. Being In Christ, we are in the saved condition, hence saved by grace, and therefore heaven-bound UNTIL one’s name when he dies is blotted out from the book of life for refusing to overcome evil with good while alive.

ONLY overcomers will ultimately make it to heaven and eternal life. Rev 3:5, 21; 21:27.

To preach the gospel is, for me, asking people to believe that God has saved them through Christ, INSTEAD of asking people to believe so God will save them through Christ.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

I believe God saved Adam from sin that day and reinstated him to his pre-fall status ....

No, Adam wasn't reinstated to a pre-fall status.  If he was reinstated then his children would have been born without sin.  

The problem with this idea is the Bible doesn't support it.