What Does It Really Mean to Be “Born Again”?

[phkrause]

Many Christians identify as born-again, but what does it really mean?
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/articles/what-does-it-really-mean-to-be-born-again.aspx

 

I'd be interested in what you think? Are there missing piece's, do they leave steps out or just skip over? Make it seem to easy??

[Robert]

The unconverted mind and nature are in harmony.  See Eph 2:3 (NASB)

That would mean that the converted mind is out of harmony with human nature.

 

[trinsabb]

This is a great question it is this question that was addressed by Martin luther in the protestant reformation. Here is how the Bible puts it -to be born again is to be justified,to be justified is to be made righteous,Rom 5:1 "Therefore being justified by Faith we have peace" to be made righteous, is to be sinfree John 3:9" Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;for is seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

[Samie]

2 hours ago, trinsabb said:

This is a great question it is this question that was addressed by Martin luther in the protestant reformation. Here is how the Bible puts it -to be born again is to be justified,to be justified is to be made righteous,Rom 5:1 "Therefore being justified by Faith we have peace" to be made righteous, is to be sinfree John 3:9" Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;for is seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God"

Not meant to offend a new citizen of this forum but just to engage him or her in a lively discussion. A couple of questions:

1.  According to what is written in the Bible, were all justified / made righteous, or only a certain, specific group of individuals?

2. Do you still commit sin?

a. If No, then how would you harmonize your not sinning vis-a-vis 1 John 1:8?

b. If Yes, then do you consider yourself as among those made righteous? Please explain. Thanks.

And welcome to the forum, brother. Please correct me if you're a sister.

[trinsabb]

22 hours ago, Samie said:

1.  According to what is written in the Bible, were all justified / made righteous, or only a certain, specific group of individuals?

 

We are all born in sin. Rom 5:12 "so death passed upon all men,for that all have sinned".  God  first has to bring His Spirit of truth to the mind. John 16:13 "when He the Spirit of truth, is come he will guide you into all truth" .then conviction takes place Acts 2:37 "Now when they heard this" (the truth that was preached), conviction Acts 2:37"they were pricked in their hearts", Then Peter tells them Acts 2:38 " repent and be baptized" "for the remission of sins" so God places the truth in the persons mind for conviction. when the person sees the beauty of God and the horribleness of sin, the person repents (turn away from sin) and believe the truth, God then in his own mind makes him righteous at that very moment. thus the man is indeed righteous!

 

22 hours ago, Samie said:

2. Do you still commit sin?

 

Any answer answer would be irrelevant to the merits of my argument since God's word is the standard.

 

22 hours ago, Samie said:

how would you harmonize your not sinning vis-a-vis 1 John 1:8?

 

In order to get a proper understanding of 1John 1:8 you need to have the historical context and the grammar of the text clear. John wrote this epistle to deal with the Gnostic teaching. They taught that there was nothing called sin, they believe there was only ignorance which is darkness, but they have light, they would say that they have not sinned in the past or they have never sinned. So, John is addressing this idea of the Gnostics. If we read 1John 1:7,8 "Jesus Christ His son cleanseth us from all sin" " If we say that we have no ( have not is in the original) sin" further proof on the verb tense."have not"   Interlinear Greek English N.T. by George Ricker Berry .so if we say we have not sinned we deceive ourselves he is not saying that if you say you have no sin...... 

 

[Kevin H]

I like this article and I don't like this article. I think that it mostly covers the situation, that some how we go a new direction. I think that it is a bit of a mystical "New direction" that needs to be filled in some. There are points in John 3: 19-21 that is missed by the article; and that this article turns the acceptance of Christ into a work.

I believe that the speaker's name was Jim Ayers (but there seems to be another Jim Ayers who I am not sure is the same person) who took over "the Word of the Lord" Sabbath School lessons after Lesile Harding died. (Sadly this tape series only lasted a couple of years) Anyway one thing that the speaker pointed out was that prior to St. Augustine the church believed that the death of Jesus was so powerful that it saved everyone except those who actively reject it. However starting with St. Augustine the church came to believe that Jesus' death only saves those who actively accept it. Much of Christianity does not have room for God to work among Jews who don't become Christians, and certainly not among Buddhists, or any other group, with maybe the exception of someone who lives out in the middle of nowhere who died before the missionaries arrived, but once the missionaries arrived then that's it... and I don't like how this article seems to hold to this view of "Say the magic words about Jesus and give a history lesson about the cross then you will be saved."  Many Jews believe that Hitler tried to destroy the Jews by killing them and that many Christians want to destroy the Jews by converting them, either way it serves the same purpose, to destroy the Jews.

I like how Jesus told Nicodemus that "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8).  There is something that happens but there is an invisibility that cannot be summarized in saying the right words about Jesus and giving the history lesson. The Holy Spirit points everyone to Christ, whether they understand who the man Jesus was or not.

Jesus also said "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ¹⁹ And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. ²⁰ For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. ²¹ But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3: 18-21.

Here Jesus says that the reason why people are lost is because they do not come to the light because they are afraid that their deeds will be exposed (that God is going to get them for their sins). Thus their fear of what they imagine that God would do to them causes them to pull away from the only source of life and thus they choose death. But Jesus shows us that on the other hand those who come to the light don't find a condemning God who is going to punish them for their sins, but rather that their works have changed from being evil deeds into the work of God.

This indicated that the born again experience is open to all, not just "professed Christians"

As I understand the born again experience, we  are born with two attitudes, our sinful nature, or an attitude to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. That we think we are for ourselves by esteeming ourselves more highly than others, to serve self to seek the highest place. Fighting this is a desire to want to be like and with Jesus. That which find's Jesus the one altogether lovely, the fairest of 10,000, the lily of the valley, the one sweeter than honey and more desirable than gold, the desire of all nations, the desire of ages, the one beloved of women.

The typical person is lost in this battle. No matter what the best we do is still tainted by selfishness and the worst we do is still tainted by our desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it, only we think we need to manipulate creation to make changes in the world to make it fit our liking. That we have to do a better job with the world than God did.

Being born again is how somehow the Holy Spirit brings to our attention this war in a clearer light. That there is something out there to reach out to and because of this to care more for those around us, people, animals, plants, things. We are more aware of the battle and choose the  direction to love the world as Jesus has loved it over the direction that they were born with that seemeth  right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Proverbs 14:12).  People start praying, how ever they understand prayer, for the same types of things that you can picture Jesus praying for (thus praying in his character/in his name) even if they don't understand the word J-E-S-U-S and the history lesson, but they are developing a friendship with the person.

We find in the late Egyptian President Anwar Saddat. He was raised by his mother and grandmother with a simple form of Islam, to love Allah (God) and others and to be caring. As he became more educated and sophisticated he took on a more militant form of Islam with Islam conquering the world and making everyone else submit. However his two views were fighting in him. As he entered into the 1973 war against Israel part of him wanted to destroy Israel another part wanted a peace with them but wanted to force the peace on his own terms with his glorious views of how God was going to use Islam. As he saw all the deaths in the war he felt responsible for these death and carried the burden of how his views of religion and politics ended up in so much bloodshed. Saddat was a man of prayer, he prayed so much that a callus formed on his forehead. He began to pray even more earnestly and saw that he had to give up his "sophisticated" views and return to the simple faith of his mother and grandmother. He saw that he had to swallow his pride and work to bring peace with his enemy. Not the peace by force that was tickling his conscience as he decided to fight, but a peace out of love.

He made the first move. When he first came to Israel everyone wondered what would happen when he and Golda Meir would meet. They had been full of bitterness towards each other.  She would only call him "That Egyptian" and  he would only call her "That old woman" As the world watched the two finally met. Golda Meir took him by the hand and asked "What took you so long?" and Saddat just laughed and laughed and they both laughed and became close friends who had a special love for each other. Saddat's decision lead to love the world as Jesus has loved it cost him his life and we will see him in heaven wearing a robe trimmed in red. But this change in his life, and the love and friendship that developed with Golda Meir is a good example of what Jesus was describing to Nicodemus about being born again.

I hope this made sense and that it helps. I hope these words here color in the outline of a change of direction that the article points out, and that it is Christ, not Christianity that brings salvation. Christianity helps and has definite advantages, but let's not confuse the work of Christ with belonging to a "Christian" church.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, trinsabb said:

We are all born in sin. Rom 5:12 "so death passed upon all men,for that all have sinned".

I think the logic is flawed.  Rom 5:12 does not prove all are born in sin.  Adam was created perfect yet he sinned.

[trinsabb]

10 hours ago, Samie said:

I think the logic is flawed.  Rom 5:12 does not prove all are born in sin.  Adam was created perfect yet he sinned.

I notice you did not address any of my other arguments directly with evidence to show how...Just saying you think its flawed does not make it so .

[Samie]

12 hours ago, trinsabb said:

I notice you did not address any of my other arguments directly with evidence to show how...Just saying you think its flawed does not make it so .

I showed how it is flawed.

You laid down your statement that all are born in sin citing Rom 5:12 as your proof verse.  Rom 5:12 simply says all sinned NOT all are born in sin. Sinning is done AFTER one is born NOT before or during birth. In fact, Scriptures tell of little children knowing neither good nor evil:

Quote

Deuteronomy 1:39   Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

 

[Musicman1228]

The answer as to how a person is 'born again' comes from two different perspective that are 180 degrees apart. The version that the Christian church believes (including SDA's, mores the pity) comes out of the mind and mouth of the apostle Paul (the inventor of the Christian religion), the other comes out of the mind and mouth of Jesus Christ the very Son of God. In Paul's version a person does not have to become righteous to be saved (i.e. born again). Indeed Paul says that becoming righteous is impossible; all that person must do is believe he/she has been made righteous in spirit by declaring that they have been 'born again' because of the blood of Jesus - and they are. This is termed 'righteousness by faith through grace'. 

The other version is from the Son of God Himself, and this is the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus taught to His own eyewitness disciples while He was here on earth. In this version a person must become righteous IN FACT in order for the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross to count for them. This is why Jesus told His disciples that they must be perfect, even as their Father in Heaven is perfect.

Jesus said that to enter the Kingdom of God a person must be BORN of the water and the spirit (John 3:3-5), and that the offspring of this Woman (the Holy Spirit) not only gave birth to Jesus (Rev. 12:5), but also to 'The rest of her offspring' that keep the commandments of God (the 10), and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17). According to Jesus meeting these two requirements (Lawful) is what you must to do prove that you have been born again.

Paul said that we are 'born again' by adoption (Rom. 8:15, 23. Rom. 9:4. Gal. 4:5. Eph. 1:5). Paul also said that "Where there is no law there is no violation." (Rom. 4:15) (Lawless)

There are not two ways to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, there is only ONE way. You must pick the one that reflects the character of God more closely. 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

The other version is from the Son of God Himself, and this is the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus taught to His own eyewitness disciples while He was here on earth. In this version a person must become righteous IN FACT in order for the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross to count for them. This is why Jesus told His disciples that they must be perfect, even as their Father in Heaven is perfect.

Can you expound a bit on how a person can be righteous?

Also, what exactly do you mean by "in order for the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross to count for them"? Do you mean that people are not forgiven nor cleansed from sin UNLESS they first become righteous?

I'll wait for your response, brother.

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Can you expound a bit on how a person can be righteous? Do you mean that people are not forgiven nor cleansed from sin UNLESS they first become righteous?

I'll wait for your response, brother.

Forgive me for interrupting, however I recognize my sins are washed away by the blood of the Lamb and cast into the depths of the sea, and continues as long as I'm willing to confess them and repent, which I practice by the grace of God on a daily basis.

…8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.… 1 John 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

 

[Musicman1228]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

Can you expound a bit on how a person can be righteous?

Also, what exactly do you mean by "in order for the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross to count for them"? Do you mean that people are not forgiven nor cleansed from sin UNLESS they first become righteous?

I'll wait for your response, brother.

I will be happy to give you my understanding of righteousness and its relationship to salvation. I will use the words of Jesus that He gave to His own eyewitness disciples. I will not be using the words of anyone else. I will do this in short form, so that you won't be inundated with too much information too quickly.

Gen 3:6  When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.

(Note: Adam was right there with Eve. Eve was not alone at the tree as we have been taught.)

Both Eve and Adam knew without a doubt what God had told them about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil: 

Gen 3:2  The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;

Gen 3:3  but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"

So both Adam and Eve sinned by DISOBEYING their Creator. In doing that the came under the sentence of death. The meaning of the word "die" in the above cited verse is Strong's Lexicon #4191, MUTH (mooth): meaning; to die, causatively to KILL, to put to death, to execute. 

Adam and Eve were not going to die as a consequence of their sin, by dying of old age. God was going to come to the garden and execute them for disobeying Them. Yet God did not KILL them on that day. That death would have been the permanent, never to be alive again, death. The reason 'why' they were not killed is where we will start to figure out 'what' God did to bring Adam and Eve back to the righteousness they had know, and been a part of, in the garden.

(I will continue tomorrow)

 

 

[Aliensanctuary]

I don't think that humans are "born again" in this life, but rather, are "reborn" after the resurrection and the wash-up in the River of Life. Very likely, those who are born again will initially have the mental capabilities of children.

[Samie]

18 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

So both Adam and Eve sinned by DISOBEYING their Creator. In doing that the came under the sentence of death.

We must not forget that before they sinned, Adam & Eve were righteous, having came out perfect from the hands of the Creator.

[Musicman1228]

I have been VERY busy these past 2 days. I will post again soon.

[Musicman1228]

Gen 3:2  The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;

Gen 3:3  but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"

Gen 3:4  The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!

      Satan is a liar, upon this we can all agree. Yet Satan is so good at lying that He can and does make lies sound like Truth. Jesus told His own eyewitness disciples, 

"See to it that no one misleads you." (Matt. 24:4) Many people believe Jesus was telling His disciples that because He was with them that they could not be deceived. Many today believe that because they have the Bible that Jesus has seen to it that THEY CANNOT possibly in a million years be deceived, as long as they believe in the Bible. Yet this is one of those beliefs that come from Satan to get people to believe a lie as if it is the truth, and THIS is what Jesus was telling His own disciples to look out for. If it was impossible for the disciples to be fooled, then Jesus would never have put the responsibility to NOT be fooled squarely on them. Therefore, if it is impossible for US not be deceived (fooled) simply because we believe what we want to believe in the Bible, then Jesus is a liar, and we know that this cannot be.

     The Woman and her husband, WHO WAS RIGHT THERE WITH HER, believed what the Serpent told them, that God would not execute them for doing something that God had told them directly that they should not do. The couple KNEW God loved them, because He had told them so personally as they walked with Him in their garden home. And Satan played on this knowledge to convince them that in the eating of the fruit of the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would not be held responsible for this disobedience to the command of God. 

And this would seem to have been a true statement by Satan, given that God DID NOT execute them of the 'very day' they ate of the Tree. So we must ask the question; Why did God put Adam and Eve to a test if He knew that they would fail? The answer lays in the truth that while Adam and Eve were created SINLESS, they were NOT created righteous (and neither were the human beings, mankind, that were created on the 6th day of creation-Gen. 1:26-27). The reason that God put Adam and Eve to the test of obedience was to TRAIN them in the learning of RIGHTEOUSNESS. Adam and Eve failed to learn righteousness. Yet in spite of this God's desire was for them to learn and practice righteousness, which is why God DID NOT execute them 'on that very day'. God wanted Adam and Eve to learn righteousness and then practice it because God needed a Kingdom on earth that would represent the Heavenly realm of Righteousness, and then teach what they had learned to a world that had completely fallen under the deceptions of Satan, so that these nations could also become righteous as had they.  And when Adam and Eve (or their descendants) accomplished this, then the promised (in the future to Adam and Eve) sacrifice of the blood of the Passover Lamb that is Jesus Christ, would be able to pay THAT death penalty that had been assessed in judgement against all those fall under Satan's deception.

What we don't see in the garden was Jesus coming to Adam and Eve and saying that since He loved them so much, He just could not bear the thought of having to kill them, so He would supply grace to them, such that they would not be held accountable for their action of disobedience to His Commandments, as long as they believed this by faith.  The penalty of death was certainly assessed against both Adam and Eve (they were one flesh), and in order to benefit from the penalty payment supplied to the Kingdom of Heaven by the death of it's King, they would have to prove righteousness in order to enter that Kingdom and be saved. THIS is the Gospel of the Kingdom for which Jesus came to testify (John 18:37). 

Joh 3:19  "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20  "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Joh 3:21  "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

It is the PRACTICE of Truth that leads to Light/Righteousness. Jesus confirms that He will finally execute the judgement prescribed in the garden when the tombs are opened at the resurrection from the dead:

Joh 5:26  "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;

Joh 5:27  and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

Joh 5:28  "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

 

[Samie]

56 minutes ago, Musicman1228 said:

The answer lays in the truth that while Adam and Eve were created SINLESS, they were NOT created righteous (and neither were the human beings, mankind, that were created on the 6th day of creation-Gen. 1:26-27).

Sorry to ask this, but if what you say is truth, are you saying the following biblical verse is a lie?

Quote

KJV Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[Samie]

On 16/06/2016 at 4:53 AM, Samie said:

Can you expound a bit on how a person can be righteous?

Also, what exactly do you mean by "in order for the penalty payment that Jesus made on the cross to count for them"? Do you mean that people are not forgiven nor cleansed from sin UNLESS they first become righteous?

To my question you replied, and part of it I quoted below:

1 hour ago, Musicman1228 said:

The reason that God put Adam and Eve to the test of obedience was to TRAIN them in the learning of RIGHTEOUSNESS. Adam and Eve failed to learn righteousness. Yet in spite of this God's desire was for them to learn and practice righteousness, which is why God DID NOT execute them 'on that very day'. God wanted Adam and Eve to learn righteousness and then practice it because God needed a Kingdom on earth that would represent the Heavenly realm of Righteousness, and then teach what they had learned to a world that had completely fallen under the deceptions of Satan, so that these nations could also become righteous as had they.  And when Adam and Eve (or their descendants) accomplished this, then the promised (in the future to Adam and Eve) sacrifice of the blood of the Passover Lamb that is Jesus Christ, would be able to pay THAT death penalty that had been assessed in judgement against all those fall under Satan's deception.

What we don't see in the garden was Jesus coming to Adam and Eve and saying that since He loved them so much, He just could not bear the thought of having to kill them, so He would supply grace to them, such that they would not be held accountable for their action of disobedience to His Commandments, as long as they believed this by faith.  The penalty of death was certainly assessed against both Adam and Eve (they were one flesh), and in order to benefit from the penalty payment supplied to the Kingdom of Heaven by the death of it's King, they would have to prove righteousness in order to enter that Kingdom and be saved. THIS is the Gospel of the Kingdom for which Jesus came to testify (John 18:37). 

I understand you as saying that people must learn and practise righteousness FIRST before they are cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ.

Sin separates man from God (Isa 59:2), and when one is apart from God, he is also apart from Christ Who is one with God. You are saying that while in sin people must learn and practise righteousness so they can be cleansed from sin. But isn't that AGAINST what Christ Himself said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING?

Christ: APART from ME, man can do NOTHING.

MusicMan1228: APART from Christ, man can do SOMETHING: learn and practise righteousnes.

[Musicman1228]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Sorry to ask this, but if what you say is truth, are you saying the following biblical verse is a lie?

 

Mat 5:17  "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

The word fulfill in this verse is the Greek word Strongs 4137, pleroo, meaning: 

to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply. The operative word in this is the word VERIFY. 

Jesus spoke to John the Baptist, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Matt. 3:15.

First, is Ecclesiastes included in the Law and the Prophets? It is in the Bible, but Jesus specified ONLY the Law and the Prophets as to what He came to 'fulfill'. Second, Christians have come to understand that the word fulfill in the above verse means that Jesus fulfilled all righteousness FOR them, which is (according to the Greek) NOT what the word actually means. Jesus was fulfilling the 'requirements' of Righteousness, to show us HOW to fulfill those requirements as did HE. 

And the final part of my answer to you is from Jesus' words to Nicademus;

Joh 3:21  "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

We have been taught that when we come to the light we THEN learn how to practice the truth. Jesus here says exactly the opposite; we must first DO (accomplish) RIGHTEOUSNESS, and THEN we come to the light, and light is righteousness.

 

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Sorry to ask this, but if what you say is truth, are you saying the following biblical verse is a lie?

 

 

[Musicman1228]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

To my question you replied, and part of it I quoted below:

I understand you as saying that people must learn and practise righteousness FIRST before they are cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ.

Sin separates man from God (Isa 59:2), and when one is apart from God, he is also apart from Christ Who is one with God. You are saying that while in sin people must learn and practise righteousness so they can be cleansed from sin. But isn't that AGAINST what Christ Himself said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING?

Christ: APART from ME, man can do NOTHING.

MusicMan1228: APART from Christ, man can do SOMETHING: learn and practise righteousnes.

Please, I won't tell you what you said, if you don't tell me what I said. I NEVER said anyone can to anything apart from Jesus Christ. The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to teach us Righteousness. But many believe that righteousness is taught by simply anyone that says that they are 'of Christ'. This is not true, and is the source of ALL deception in the Bible.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.

Mat 24:5  "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

They will do this by claiming that the spirit that is teaching them the truth is teaching them words that come from others, and not just the words of Jesus Christ that He gave to His own eyewitness disciples. Jesus guaranteed HIS OWN WORDS, AND NO OTHER.

Anyone that uses any words by anyone other than Jesus, claiming the Holy Spirit said them, is finding truth APART FROM CHRIST; This Cannot Be Truth.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Please, I won't tell you what you said, if you don't tell me what I said. I NEVER said anyone can to anything apart from Jesus Christ.

Verbatim, Yes.

BUT you are teaching that people need to learn and practise righteousness first BEFORE they can be cleansed from sin by the blood of Jesus. Hence, people are yet IN sin as they strive to learn and practise righteousness and therefore still APART or separate from God and Christ because sin separates man from God.

That's why I said you are saying that while APART from Christ people can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

First, is Ecclesiastes included in the Law and the Prophets? It is in the Bible, but Jesus specified ONLY the Law and the Prophets as to what He came to 'fulfill'.

Are you saying that what are written in Ecclesiastes are lies?

But if they are Truth, then since it says God created man upright (righteous) you therefore err when you said people are created NOT righteous.

[Musicman1228]

Samie, your paradigms are showing. Where did I say that Ecclesiastes is lies? I said Jesus confirmed only the Law and the Prophets. Jesus did not confirm the other books that are in our Bible, because they were not yet compiled into a 'bible' at the time Jesus was here on earth. The scrolls Jesus read from in the Synagogue were The Law, and the Prophets. There was no New Testament at all, and Jesus used only the Pentatuch (1st Five books of our Bible) and the Prophets (most notably Daniel, and the major prophets) to prove his points before the leadership of Israel. Righteousness is a state of being that requires demonstration in fact, at least according to what Jesus told His own eyewitness disciples (as cited previously). We are all (now) born into a sinful world, but an infant or new born baby are not sinners because they have not yet sinned, nor do they have any concept of what 'sin' is. Adam and Eve fell under this category when they were in the garden of Eden, until they disobeyed. If they had already been Righteous they would NOT have disobeyed the Commandments of God. These are not my words. These words come from Jesus the Son of God, as HE gave them to His own eyewitness disciples; specifically John and Matthew. (Most of Mark can be included in this because Mark wrote for Peter-this does not include the last 10 verses or so, which were added much later.)

 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Samie, your paradigms are showing. Where did I say that Ecclesiastes is lies?

Again, if you believe that what are written in Ecclesiastes are not lies, why did you say that God created man NOT righteous in direct opposition to what is written in Ecclesiastes that God made man upright?