Abortion...I would call this a theological issue

[Robert]

34 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

...the theology behind many people's reasoning who oppose abortion is inextricably linked with a theology that teaches such blatant errors as that God will destroy no one in hell, that God didn't actually mean what He said to and about King Saul....

John 16:2 The time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

Jesus said, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father".  Please show me, in the NT, where Jesus hurt anyone?

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  When persistently rejected He goes away.  What follows is trouble. 

[Robert]

Suggested reading:

http://sinbearer.com/light_on_the_dark_side_of_god.htm

 

[Green Cochoa]

21 minutes ago, Robert said:

 Please show me, in the NT, where Jesus hurt anyone?

1) Please show me why you don't believe the OT.  Jesus said "Search the scriptures…they are they which testify of Me."  He was speaking, of course, of the Old Testament.

2) Why are you trying to find Jesus hurting someone?

29 minutes ago, Robert said:

This so called doctrine that you are presenting is demonic.  It comes from the father of lies himself.  It is a twisting of God's word calculated to devalue human life at its source.  This can't be of God!

If it is not of God, why are you not able to support your doctrine from the Bible?  You, instead, make emotional appeals, and resort to sarcasm.  Where is your "thus saith the LORD"?

Please answer just one question for me:

How does the Bible define "soul"?

I have supported this from scripture.  You have disagreed.  But your disagreement did not address the scripture-supported points I had made. I have stated that the Bible defines the soul by its breath.  You said life is in the blood.  Both are correct.  But you have failed to address the fact that "life" is not "soul."  If it were, then you commit "murder" by eating a carrot, right?  Because it is specifically the killing of a "soul" that is defined as "murder" in the Bible.  If I kill a sheep, that is not murder, is it?  If it is, why did God command such?

Your theology forces God to contradict Himself.  As Mrs. White states, "It is impossible to honor God with an erroneous opinion."  One of us is not honoring God, for our opinions cannot agree.  I will humbly suggest that you should take a closer look at where the theological views you espouse have come from, and compare them to each other to see if they can line up to what the Bible says.  I believe you will begin to find the contradictions if you will look closely at them with less of a self-justifying spirit.  Truth is precious enough to obtain, even if it must be by eating humble pie.

 

[Gerr]

4 hours ago, David Geelan said:

Oh, I get that. But they do provide care. If they were not there, less care would be provided. Less is not none, but its less... which means none for some individuals.

I have no particular brief for Planned Parenthood as an organisation. My question is not about Planned Parenthood per se, it's about how those who want to withdraw those services intend to replace them.

No-one has yet answered that question. Am I justified in assuming that they do not plan to replace those services at all?

If that happens, people will die unnecessarily. Which is hardly 'pro-life'.

From what I have just read, there are over 13,300 pro-life clinics all over the country that provide the services sans abortion as opposed to only 650 for PP.

[LifeHiscost]

In the off chance that no one is so overheated in the attempt to make sure all medical personnel are seen to be guilty of murder by providing abortions, it might be enlightening to know that physical self control was the biblical advice to solve the problem before it could become a problem. Something like, don't eat the fruit of that tree.

…8Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." 9Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. 10But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.…Genesis 38

But of course, self control is not seen as a logical virtue in the world we live in.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!     

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Please answer just one question for me: How does the Bible define "soul"?

The Bible often uses the term soul to refer simply to a human being. Our soul, then, is simply our self. 

David said, "Surely I was sinful at birth", but then he steps back further: "sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

If David was considered sinful from conception - that is, "bent-to-self", then he had a "self" (a soul). The soul, with its life of self, is our natural life. 

Quote

You, instead, make emotional appeals, and resort to sarcasm.  Where is your "thus saith the LORD"?

The Bible is silent on the subject of abortion as we know it.  However, it isn't silent on the murder of a human being (a soul). 

Your "thus saith the Lord" is in reality "thus saith Green".  It is therefore nothing but raw conjecture. 

As to sarcaism the Apostle Paul used it occasionally:

"As for those agitators (Judaizers), I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:12

The Judaizers were pushing circumcision as a means of salvation (see Acts 15:1).  Paul, using sarcasm, said I wish they would cut the whole thing off.

 "Beware of the dogs (again, the Judaizers), beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision" Phil 3:2.  Here Paul refers to the Judaizers as "dogs", which is linked to "wolves in sheep's clothing"

Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?” Acts 23:23  "Whitewashed" means self-righteous.

 

 

[Nic Samojluk]

11 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Which commandment says "thou shalt not commit abortion?"  

OK. Which commandment prohibits me from marrying several women besides my wife, and where can I find a commandment condemning smoking marijuana?

[Nic Samojluk]

12 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

However, in the Word of God, evidence exists that abortion is not murder.

I believe that your understanding of the passage found in Exodus is erroneous. Notice that many Bible translators have rendered the word "fruit" as premature birth. This means that harm to either the woman or the unborn baby is prohibited.

Exodus 21 on abortion

New International Version (©1984)
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman's husband demands and the judges approve.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman's husband to demand.

[Nic Samojluk]

14 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

Our understanding of the value of the life of the unborn child is thus bound up inextricably with our understanding of the nature of man, which in turn is bound up with our understanding of the nature of Christ, that qualified Him to be our Saviour. Thus it is bound up with our understanding of Salvation itself.

Your comments make a lot of common sense! If it is true that abortion is not prohibited in the Bible, then it would follow that Mary, the mother of Jesus, could have opted for an abortion. She was young, unmarried, and poor. I challenged a young Adventist physician some years ago with this question and he responded with "I would have not hesitated in performing and abortion for her."

This prompted a long exchange of views that lasted several months, but we failed to reach an agreement. This convinced me that we have no power to convict any one of sin. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.

[Nic Samojluk]

11 hours ago, Robert said:

 Please show me, in the NT, where Jesus hurt anyone?

Excellent question!

Of Jesus it was said:

New Living Translation
He will not crush the weakest reed or put out a flickering candle. Finally he will cause justice to be victorious. [Matthew 12:20]

Think of this. It states that Jesus would not put out a "flickering candle," yet we are arguing about putting out the life of a human being being created by the power of God. Jesus identified with "the least of these."

No other group of human beings deserve more the "the least of these" label than the unborn. Every abortion harms Jesus himself.
 

[APL]

Green said: 1) Please show me why you don't believe the OT.  Jesus said "Search the scriptures…they are they which testify of Me."  He was speaking, of course, of the Old Testament.

 

Yes, they do testify of Christ. They show how He worked with wayward Israel to win them back, even then they took multiple wifes, offered their children to other gods (who were no gods), and wanted to be like other nations and have a human king over them. Israel fought even though that was not God's plan and why did they fight? Because their minds were blinded. Do we need to still be blind today? The oldest book of the Bible lays the foundation, which if ignored will lead to the conclusions that Green has come to.

 

Green said: 2) Why are you trying to find Jesus hurting someone?

 

Christ is the revelation of the Father. If you have seem Me He said, you have seen the Father, John 14:9. Christ mission was to reveal the character of God. We we ever see Christ killing people? No. Green has stated in another forum that he believes we learn little of the character of God from Christ short say on earth. But this is contrary to scripture and the writings or Ellen White.

 

Green said: I have stated that the Bible defines the soul by its breath.

 

But Green ignores the fact that an unborn child lives by the breath. There is not separate entity of a soul that magically enters the body at birth. Green ignores the testimony of the New Testament of John the Baptist on this point. The Bible definition of a soul is the whole person.

 

Green said: If I work a solid day's labor, and my wages are $120, did the dollars pay me?  Who paid me my wages?  Wages do not pay themselves! God will pay the wages.  He tells us so.

 

If you smoke, does God have to step in and give you lung cancer or COPD? If you don't take care of your teeth, does God step in and cause tooth decay? Sin pays it wage, and when it is full grown, brings death, not execution by God. EGW who Green claims to believe in, says, Nature recoils from the thought of dissolution, which is the consequence of sin. {5Red 81.2} The sacrificial offerings were ordained by God to be to man a perpetual reminder and a penitential acknowledgment of his sin and a confession of his faith in the promised Redeemer. They were intended to impress upon the fallen race the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death. {PP 68.1} Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. {DA 764.2}

 

Stan said: Those who oppose it, in my opinion, should also be willing to step up to the plate and support the mother, esp if she is a single mom, with true love, necessities of life, babysitting, diapers and school expenses and so forth.

 

And Stan said: Even though my position is a strong one, I can say this. those who have had an abortion will always be welcomed, with no condemnation, into my circle of friends.

 

Amen Stan. James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

On 9/11/2016 at 6:18 PM, LifeHiscost said:

They are and do stay alive as a result of the breath received from the womb.

Amen, brother! What sustains life is oxygen. When God enabled Adam to breathe, he received a supply of oxygen. The same is true about the unborn. When conception takes place, oxygen is supplied to the unborn through the placenta.

[LifeHiscost]

10 hours ago, Nic Samojluk said:

OK. Which commandment prohibits me from marrying several women besides my wife, and where can I find a commandment condemning smoking marijuana?

I think both issues would be covered by this counsel;

3We put no stumbling block in anyone’s path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way .....

11We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. 12We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. 13As a fair exchange—I speak as to my children—open wide your hearts also. 2 Corinthians 6

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Green Cochoa]

15 hours ago, Robert said:

 

21 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Please answer just one question for me: How does the Bible define "soul"?

The Bible often uses the term soul to refer simply to a human being. Our soul, then, is simply our self. 

David said, "Surely I was sinful at birth", but then he steps back further: "sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Ps 51:5

If David was considered sinful from conception - that is, "bent-to-self", then he had a "self" (a soul). The soul, with its life of self, is our natural life. 

 

Your answer presents a lot of opinion, but it lacks a foundation.  Psalm 51:5 makes no mention of a soul.  Your saying that "self" equals "soul" does not make it Biblical--where do you find this in inspiration?  In fact, it rather sounds more like a Buddhist concept of the self.

15 hours ago, Robert said:

The Bible is silent on the subject of abortion as we know it.  However, it isn't silent on the murder of a human being (a soul). 

On this we can agree.  You just need to learn what "soul" means.

15 hours ago, Robert said:

As to sarcaism the Apostle Paul used it occasionally:

"As for those agitators (Judaizers), I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" Gal 5:12

The Judaizers were pushing circumcision as a means of salvation (see Acts 15:1).  Paul, using sarcasm, said I wish they would cut the whole thing off.

 "Beware of the dogs (again, the Judaizers), beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision" Phil 3:2.  Here Paul refers to the Judaizers as "dogs", which is linked to "wolves in sheep's clothing"

Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?” Acts 23:23  "Whitewashed" means self-righteous.

All of those parentheses represent "thus saith Robert" and are not accurate.  For example, I understand "dogs" rather differently.  They represent Sodomites, which can be either male prostitutes or homosexuals, abominable enough to cloak in metaphors like "dogs."  How do I know?  I let the Bible interpret itself.  

Quote

Deuteronomy

 23:17    There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.  
 23:18    Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God.  

 

[Green Cochoa]

10 hours ago, Nic Samojluk said:

OK. Which commandment prohibits me from marrying several women besides my wife, and where can I find a commandment condemning smoking marijuana?

Nic,

The Bible has areas that are black and white, and it has areas of gray as well.  The gray areas are shown in the Bible to be inferior, but permissible.  For example, eating meat.  That is one of the gray areas.  Other gray areas include polygamy, drinking wine, killing in war, being wealthy, wearing jewelry, slavery, and abortion, the topic of this thread.  Because these are gray areas in the Bible, much wasted time and lots of heat are generated over these topics.  Not once in all of the Bible is polygamy forbidden.  Please keep in mind that the Bible speaks of Jacob's four wives, not one wife plus three paramours (or whatever epithet one might give such ladies).  When you are married to someone, and she is your wife, it is not adultery to be with her.  One does not commit adultery with one's own wife.  The ten commandments prohibit adultery, not marriage.  Adultery is defined in scripture as stealing someone else's spouse.

The commandment condemning smoking marijuana is in Ezekiel 8:17 coupled with 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 10:31. That text in Ezekiel says:

"Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose."

10 hours ago, Nic Samojluk said:

I believe that your understanding of the passage found in Exodus is erroneous. Notice that many Bible translators have rendered the word "fruit" as premature birth. This means that harm to either the woman or the unborn baby is prohibited.

Exodus 21 on abortion

New International Version (©1984)
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman's husband demands and the judges approve.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman's husband to demand.

I see that new renditions of scripture equal new theologies.  I remain unpersuaded by them.  Use the KJV if you wish to support any real doctrine.

That said, the Bible teaches we should have two or three witnesses to establish something.  Where is your other text about abortion?

 

[LifeHiscost]

  21 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Please answer just one question for me: How does the Bible define "soul". 

45.So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit." 1 Corinthians
 

6 The LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2
 

…6But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.....Genesis 2

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Nic Samojluk]

33 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

I think both issues would be covered by this counsel;

3We put no stumbling block in anyone’s path, so that our ministry will not be discredited

I agree 100 %! If that text covers many sinful acts, do we need a special divine commandment for every potential sinful act?

If God had elected to provide specific prohibitions for every potential violation of his will, how many thousands commandments would we have in the Decalogue instead of Ten?

If Jesus said that hate was included in the commandment that prohibits murder, does that mean that we need a special prohibition for abortion?

If hate--lack of love--is included in said commandment, how can we argue that abortion--lack of love toward one owns child --is not included in it?

[Green Cochoa]

5 hours ago, APL said:

Green said: I have stated that the Bible defines the soul by its breath.

 

But Green ignores the fact that an unborn child lives by the breath. There is not separate entity of a soul that magically enters the body at birth. Green ignores the testimony of the New Testament of John the Baptist on this point. The Bible definition of a soul is the whole person.

I would agree that there is no "magic" involved with the soul.  It is simply a matter of God's definitions, that's all.  Just as there is no "magic" that suddenly joins a man and a woman into "one flesh" when they get married--it's just a matter of God's definitions.  The Bible definition of a souls is of a person who has breath.  The life of a fetus is supported, not by breath, but by the mother's blood.  The mother has breath, yes.  She is considered a soul, too.  One of the two is breathing.  Two souls do not come from one, else Adam and Eve had billions of souls.

5 hours ago, APL said:

Green said: 2) Why are you trying to find Jesus hurting someone?

 

Christ is the revelation of the Father. If you have seem Me He said, you have seen the Father, John 14:9. Christ mission was to reveal the character of God. We we ever see Christ killing people? No. Green has stated in another forum that he believes we learn little of the character of God from Christ short say on earth. But this is contrary to scripture and the writings or Ellen White.

APL believes we will never be able to learn anything about Jesus except what He taught us during His life on earth--that there is nothing more to learn about Christ beyond that.  I believe that His life on earth taught us a great amount, but that it still is as the drop in the bucket compared to how much more there is to learn of Christ.  And we will be learning throughout all of eternity.  Jesus Himself told His disciples there were other things He'd like to tell them, but that they were not ready yet.  Therefore, Jesus did not teach us everything.  It does not contradict the Bible nor Ellen White to believe that what He taught us was but little of what can be learned.  I would definitely say that it was enough for our salvation--He taught us enough for our needs.

[Green Cochoa]

8 minutes ago, Nic Samojluk said:

I agree 100 %! If that text covers many sinful acts, do we need a special divine commandment for every potential sinful act?

If God had elected to provide specific prohibitions for every potential violation of his will, how many thousands commandments would we have in the Decalogue instead of Ten?

If Jesus said that hate was included in the commandment that prohibits murder, does that mean that we need a special prohibition for abortion?

If hate--lack of love--is included in said commandment, how can we argue that abortion--lack of love toward one owns child --is not included in it?

Nic,

The Bible commands certain forms of killing.  Hatred would convert that killing into the crime of murder, which was to be punished with death.  Killing had to be without hatred in order to comply with God's law.  I'm quite sure most people who choose to get an abortion do not do so out of hatred for their unborn.  If you were to say a "lack of love" was the basis for prohibiting abortion, how do you know if there was a lack of love?  Consider the case where the parents really want the child, but something goes wrong and they must choose to abort because it's not going to end well in any case.  It happens.  The abortion itself is not hatred.  Therefore, motivation must be considered on this issue.

[LifeHiscost]

 

Nic Samojluk

If God had elected to provide specific prohibitions for every potential violation of his will, how many thousands commandments would we have in the Decalogue instead of Ten?

When the Jews were still saying "  8All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!"   " they were reaching for the figure you stated. That's at least part of the reason why they failed and it incorporates the "law that was against us. IMHO

5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Nic Samojluk]

20 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

for they have filled the land with violence

Do you think that the dismemberment or poisoning of 60 million unborn babies in the U.S. alone is not equivalent to what is described in this biblical passage: "they have filled the land with violence?

[Nic Samojluk]

29 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Consider the case where the parents really want the child, but something goes wrong and they must choose to abort because it's not going to end well in any case.

What is the worst scenario if the pregnancy is "not going to end well"? Is it the death of the baby? Are we supposed to kill every time a patient's prognosis is that it may "not going to end well"? Are you a physician? If you are, is this the way you treat your patients?

Do you realize that the statement it may "not end well" implies that it may actually end well.

It is a fact that many prognosis turn out to be wrong. Only God knows how it will end. When in doubt, should we not err on the side of caution?

[APL]

21 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

APL believes we will never be able to learn anything about Jesus except what He taught us during His life on earth--that there is nothing more to learn about Christ beyond that.  I believe that His life on earth taught us a great amount, but that it still is as the drop in the bucket compared to how much more there is to learn of Christ.  And we will be learning throughout all of eternity.  Jesus Himself told His disciples there were other things He'd like to tell them, but that they were not ready yet.  Therefore, Jesus did not teach us everything.  It does not contradict the Bible nor Ellen White to believe that what He taught us was but little of what can be learned.  I would definitely say that it was enough for our salvation--He taught us enough for our needs.

How you view God affects your view on the question of abortion.  The object of Christ's mission was to reveal the character of God to the world. The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be. Yes, I read the Old Testament from the lense of Christ. As Jesus said, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Again, the OT reveals Christ. The oldest book is a lesson which can be used to rightly divide scripture. Yet its teaching is somehow ignored. Satan is THE Destroyer. God is the source of life. Death is an enemy. Does God cause death as Green teaches, or is it sin that causes death. Sin.

[Green Cochoa]

5 minutes ago, Nic Samojluk said:

What is the worst scenario if the pregnancy is "not going to end well"? Is it the death of the baby? Are we supposed to kill every time a patient's prognosis is that it may "not going to end well"? Are you a physician? If you are, is this the way you treat your patients?

Do you realize that the statement "it may not end well" implies that "it may actually end well." It is a fact that many prognosis turn out to be wrong. Only God know how it will and. When in doubt, should we not err on the side of caution?

Evidently, you are not a physician, nor do you have experience with the cases that may present for treatment.

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

 Use the KJV if you wish to support any real doctrine.

Not the best translation....