Abortion...I would call this a theological issue

[Robert]

41 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Here's a question for you. 

Will women who died while pregnant, be resurrected with the fetus still inside them??

Of course not....

[8thdaypriest]

But what is the women who died while pregnant was a redeemed woman who believed in Jesus?  What about her fetus?

[Robert]

Matt 22:30 "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

Matthew did not say that the saved would be angels, but like the angels.  The point here is we will no longer marry.  If we no longer marry then that infers we will not have children.  If no offspring then we will not be male nor female.

 

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

But what is the women who died while pregnant was a redeemed woman who believed in Jesus?  What about her fetus?

Did God create Eve from a fetus?  No. That infers that God can call a fetus into existence at any timeline He desires.

[Green Cochoa]

14 hours ago, Robert said:

When Israel compromised by contracting multiple marriages, holding slaves and demanding a king, God did not reject them for it. He tried to install principles and requirements to make the best of a less than perfect situation, likely following the same procedure in regard to their choice to take up arms (Exodus 21:2-11; 1 Samuel 8).

When a person accepts one theological error, it inevitably leads to another.  I can see lying close beneath the surface of your reasoning above another error: that God does not kill.  This theological error has increased in popularity in recent times, and yet, it is without foundation.  God did not look kindly at Saul's compromising attitude which had spared King Agag.  It was precisely for this that God rejected Saul.  The "choice to take up arms" was the command of God--and to fail in their duty, as Saul did in sparing Agag, was sin.  Sin is transgression of the law.  God's command is law.  That God did not always destroy His and/or Israel's enemies in the same way does not mean one way was always superior to another.  God uses different methods for different occasions in accordance with His wisdom.  Sometimes He chooses what some might see as "nature."  But "natural causes" still refer back to God, for He it was who created all of nature and nature's laws.  So, God buried the antediluvians in the waters of the Flood.  He buried Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in a miraculous sinkhole and/or chasm that closed back up on them.  At times, a more clearly Divine stroke of justice is used, as in the cases of Sodom & Gomorrah, Senacherib's army, Uzzah, Nadab and Abihu, Lot's wife, Ananias and Sapphira, and the stroke that caused Herod to die in an agony of being eaten of worms.  God deliberately removes some of the worst apples from the box to prevent greater casualties among those that remain.  We should be glad that He does this.  We should also be glad that God does not entrust such judgments to any single human being, but rather places the responsibility on multiple individuals (Israelite system) and/or governments (modern system) to make any choice involving capital punishment.

[Robert]

I totally and unequivocally reject your conclusion above.

[Green Cochoa]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

I totally and unequivocally reject your conclusion above.

Which part do you reject?  I hope you reject the theology that God does not kill which I had inferred supported your view.

[Robert]

53 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

God deliberately removes some of the worst apples from the box to prevent greater casualties among those that remain.  

The greatest enemy of God and men is fallen Lucifer, yet he lives. If God wishes to "prevent greater casualties" then by all means take Satan 6' under, permanently.

Then there's Hitler.  Why did He allow 5 million Jews to be tortured, starved and gassed?  Why not stop Hitler at his birth?  

Your theology has large, gaping holes in it. 

[Robert]

4 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Which part do you reject?  I hope you reject the theology that God does not kill which I had inferred supported your view.

I do not believe that God kills....I believe that ultimately sin kills....Sin is the destroyer, not God.  IF God destroys what does sin do..tell jokes?

 

[Robert]

19 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

 I hope you reject the theology that God does not kill which I had inferred supported your view.

 

Since we are moving in another direction I've started another thread titled: "Did God the Father kill Christ so that we might be justified?"

 

[Robert]

wrong place

[Green Cochoa]

5 hours ago, Robert said:

The greatest enemy of God and men is fallen Lucifer, yet he lives. If God wishes to "prevent greater casualties" then by all means take Satan 6' under, permanently.

Then there's Hitler.  Why did He allow 5 million Jews to be tortured, starved and gassed?  Why not stop Hitler at his birth?  

Your theology has large, gaping holes in it. 

Who tempted Lucifer?  The same "being" still exists to tempt every one of us--self.  Self is our greatest enemy.

Quote

As one flaw makes the chain worthless, so one defect will spoil the character, and if not overcome, will gain the mastery. Self is our greatest enemy, and day by day each must strive for the victory. There must be no careless, haphazard work in the foundation chosen or in the structure built thereon. Our physical, mental, and moral powers must be trained, every ability must be cultivated and used to the fullest extent, every power must be brought into working order.  {ST, August 26, 1897 par. 9}  

If you understand the entire Plan of Redemption, you will understand why it is necessary for God to allow the nature of sin to be revealed through these evil events.

 

5 hours ago, Robert said:

I do not believe that God kills....I believe that ultimately sin kills....Sin is the destroyer, not God.  IF God destroys what does sin do..tell jokes?

 

Then, sadly, there are certain parts of the Bible which you will not believe.  That may include the part that speaks of God's post-birth abortion inflicted on David and Bathsheba.  Sin destroys our character, but God will destroy our soul and body in hell.  Sin is a choice we make, but it is not a sentient being with powers of judgment to strike us dead.  And if it were, somehow it causes those who sin more to live longer in hell.  How is that?

[Robert]

27 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Then, sadly, there are certain parts of the Bible which you will not believe.  

More like I will not interpret certain parts of the Bible through your glasses.

Quote

That may include the part that speaks of God's post-birth abortion inflicted on David and Bathsheba.

Inflicted?  More like God didn't bless the situation and nature took over.  Nevertheless, that infant will be in heaven according to Paul's gospel.

Quote

....God will destroy our soul and body in hell. 

Yes, and how?  Abandonment.  Those who reject Christ commit suicide.  God destroys no man.

Quote

somehow it causes those who sin more to live longer in hell.  How is that?

Jesus took our curse, right?  I don't remember God toasting Him in hell.  If He did, it sure was a short time for taking the sins of all men upon Himself. 

[Green Cochoa]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

More like I will not interpret certain parts of the Bible through your glasses.

Inflicted?  More like God didn't bless the situation and nature took over.  Nevertheless, that infant will be in heaven according to Paul's gospel.

Yes, and how?  Abandonment.  Those who reject Christ commit suicide.  God destroys no man.

Do you believe God's words, or do you reinterpret them through my your own glasses?  For example:

Gen. 6:7 -- And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth. . . .

Gen. 6:13 -- And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Of course, Noah was called a deluded old man….maybe he wrote errors; oh, that can't be the explanation, because Moses wrote this under inspiration. And then, there are others...

Jer. 15:6-7 -- Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.  And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children, I will destroy my people, since they return not from their ways.  

Eze. 25:7 --  . . . I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.  

Of course, you probably have the next error ready to launch to refute these verses--that the Old Testament imperfectly reveals God's character.  But this is seen again in the New.  Jesus said of the Master of the vineyard:

He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. (Luke 20:16, KJV)

Consider Jesus' words recorded in Matthew:

 10:28    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.  ...

18:8    Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.  
 18:9    And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.  

We've seen that verse in this discussion before, I think.  The verse in Matthew 10:28 clearly presents a dichotomy between soul and body.  It shows that the two are not the same.  It shows that it is possible to kill the body without killing the soul.  Other passages indicate that while Jesus had a "body" prepared for him in Mary, He did not enter the body until it was born, a babe in Bethlehem.  That is when Jesus came to this earth.  Did Jesus have a soul?  If Jesus were not yet come to this earth, did that "body" that was prepared for Him have a soul?  These parts are integral to understanding the concept of abortion in light of the Biblical teaching.

The next point is the concept of the "soul" itself.  What constitutes a soul?  According to the Bible, a soul is a living, breathing, person.  That is integral to the definition of the original words used for "soul."

The Hebrew word for "soul" is "nephesh" (נֶפֶשׁ), which means "a breathing creature."   Pre-born fetuses aren't breathing yet.  They are alive.  They are human.  But they do not yet breathe on their own, and, therefore, do not possess a soul.  Rachel's question about pregnant women in heaven is pertinent.   Souls are saved, not bodies.  If you do not believe that God has ultimate jurisdiction over the soul, you may never fully comprehend the related concepts of abortion or murder. 

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Gen. 6:7 -- And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth. . . .

Who destroyed Saul?

"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14)."

Your answer would be God killed him in battle.

Well, there's more:

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

Saul had rejected God; he proved his unfaithfulness by consulting a medium. By choosing a life of apostasy Saul placed himself outside God's protection and love, but because God is sovereign He assumed the blame for Saul's death as if He killed Saul Himself.  

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

 What constitutes a soul?  According to the Bible, a soul is a living, breathing, person.  That is integral to the definition of the original words used for "soul."

Oh please, stop with the nonsense.  "The life is in the blood".  Blood is oxygen-rich.  

Quote

they do not yet breathe on their own, and, therefore, do not possess a soul  

What utter nonsense!  Wow....

[Robert]

Did God destroy, as we traditionally understand His wrath, these four cities: Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim?

Yes, if you take only the traditional texts.  Here's one: 

"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. But his [Lot's] wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt" (Genesis 19:24-26).

But "no" if you take other texts into account.  Here are two:

• "Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen . . . They declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" (Isaiah 3:8,9).

• "How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred." (Hosea 11:8)

Note that in the first text Sodom, and other three by implication, brought "evil" upon itself.  Are we to conclude then that God's wrath is evil?  No!  Then why did destruction (evil) fall upon these four cities? 

An answer is found in Deut 31:17

"My wrath shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ 

This is how we are to understand God's wrath. 

[Green Cochoa]

5 minutes ago, Robert said:

Who destroyed Saul?

"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14)."

Your answer would be God killed him in battle.

Well, there's more:

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

Saul had rejected God; he proved his unfaithfulness by consulting a medium. By choosing a life of apostasy Saul placed himself outside God's protection and love, but because God is sovereign He assumed the blame for Saul's death as if He killed Saul Himself.  

Would Saul have lived had he not fallen on his sword?  Saul only hastened his demise.  God had already chosen the outcome.  Consider Jacob.  He was promised the birthright.  Did he need to deceive his father to get it?  That only hastened the outcome, and he sinned in doing so, just as Saul sinned in his act.  In any case, your answer above provides no explanation for how the Antediluvians would have killed themselves by Flood.  Did they cause the flood directly themselves?  or was God behind that?

 

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

Oh please, stop with the nonsense.  "The life is in the blood".  Blood is oxygen-rich.  

What utter nonsense!  Wow....

Yes, when you breathe, life-giving oxygen enters the blood.  In the womb, the fetus is also alive--it has blood.  This "blood," nonetheless, is separate from the concept of "soul" in some very important ways.

 

6 minutes ago, Robert said:

Did God destroy, as we traditionally understand His wrath, these four cities: Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim?

Yes, if you take only the traditional texts.  Here's one: 

"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. But his [Lot's] wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt" (Genesis 19:24-26).

But "no" if you take other texts into account.  Here are two:

• "Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen . . . They declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" (Isaiah 3:8,9).

• "How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred." (Hosea 11:8)

Note that in the first text Sodom, and other three by implication, brought "evil" upon itself.  Are we to conclude then that God's wrath is evil?  No!  Then why did destruction (evil) fall upon these four cities? 

An answer is found in Deut 31:17

"My wrath shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ 

This is how we are to understand God's wrath. 

Prove to me that "evil" equals "destruction" before continuing on that line.  According to my dictionary, they are rather different concepts.  The cities brought evil upon themselves.  God brought the destruction upon them.

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Would Saul have lived had he not fallen on his sword?  Saul only hastened his demise.  God had already chosen the outcome....

Yes, Saul would have died anyway.  Let's read the context:

 "The Philistines overtook Saul...he was badly wounded by the archers. Then Saul said to his armor bearer, 'Draw your sword and pierce me through with it, otherwise these uncircumcised will come and pierce me through and make sport of me.'”  1 Sam 31:2-4

God was no longer with Saul; therefore Saul was not under God's protection.  But the point is God stated that He killed Saul when clearly Saul took his own life.

This whole issue revolves the Day of Atonement.  Here's Jack:

Quote

 

One of the biggest problems that God faces before He can eradicate sin is the issue of responsibility.  Legally, when you deal with sin, it is “the transgression of the law.”  When you deal with sin in a legal sense, there are three things:

• Guilt.
• Punishment.
• Responsibility.

The question is, “Who is responsible for sin?”  This is one of the issues that was not dealt with on the cross, that is to be dealt with on the Day of Atonement.  Let me put it this way, which may solve the problem that is in the minds of many Christians.  God is sovereign.  That’s the clear teaching of the Bible in the Old and New Testament.  That means that nothing happens in this world or in the universe without His permission or His consent.  He is the Lord!  He is the one that created all things.  Nothing happens without Him.  That’s what it means to be sovereign.  Because God is sovereign, He must assume the blame for what happens in His kingdom.

The Bible teaches that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.  Exodus 10:20:

But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.

[You can also view Exodus 4:21, 7:3, 9:12, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, or 14:17.]

You will find another statement which says, “Pharaoh hardened his own heart.”  Exodus 8:15 [also see Exodus 8:32 and 9:34]:

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.

Which text is correct?  Both are from the Bible.  Well, both are correct.  It is actually Pharaoh who hardened his own heart but, because God is sovereign, He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement.  In other words, God could have stopped Pharaoh from hardening his heart.  He is sovereign.  He could have done it, but He did not.  Therefore, He assumes the blame.  God says in the Old Testament, “I have created evil.”  Did He actually create evil?  No.  All these texts that give you problems in this regard are simply saying, “Because I’m sovereign, I’m assuming the blame.”

If I see a toddler, two years old, walking toward a cliff and I do nothing about it, I know that he is going to die.  I could have stopped that baby but I did not, so I have to take some of the blame.  And this is what God is saying, “I will assume the blame.”

[ Ref:  http://www.jacksequeira.org/sanctuary24.htm ]

 

 

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Prove to me that "evil" equals "destruction" before continuing on that line. 

Would we have destruction (chaos and death) without the entrance of sin?  No.  Because of "evil" we have "destruction". 

Because God is sovereign - because He allowed Lucifer to develop his u-turn agape (iniquity) and because iniquity (sin) ultimately brings death, God assumes the responsibility of all that's wrong in our world. * He does this until the Day of Atonement when the adversary (Satan) will be fully and completely unmasked.  Then the actual blame will be placed upon his shoulders. 

*  "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." Deut 32:39 KJV  "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Is 45:7 

 

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Would we have destruction (chaos and death) without the entrance of sin?  No.  Because of "evil" we have "destruction". 

You may be persuading me with such mealy-mouthed reasoning to uninvolve myself in this discussion.  Because of atoms we have atom bombs.  Does that make all atoms evil?  By the same token, evil and destruction are separate things.  When God destroys evil, it is good that He does so, not evil!

[Robert]

30 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

 When God destroys evil, it is good that He does so, not evil!

And how does God destroy?  By abandoning those who persistently and ultimately reject the righteousness of Christ and allowing sin, in all its dimensions, to take its natural course - i.e., to do its evil work of destruction.  

"My wrath shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ Deut 31:17

 

[Robert]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

And how does God destroy?  By abandoning those who persistently and ultimately reject the righteousness of Christ and allowing sin, in all its dimensions, to take its natural course - i.e., to do its evil work of destruction.

"Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?"  Deut 31:17

Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer . {MH 112–113} 

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.  {GC 36.1} 

Satan is the destroyer. God cannot bless those who refuse to be faithful stewards. All He can do is to permit Satan to accomplish his destroying work . We see calamities of every kind and in every degree coming upon the earth, and why? The Lord's restraining power is not exercised. The world has disregarded the word of God. They live as though there were no God. Like the inhabitants of the Noachic world, they refuse to have any thought of God. Wickedness prevails to an alarming extent, and the earth is ripe for the harvest. {6T 388–389} 

Men have become bold in transgression. The wickedness of the inhabitants of the world has almost filled up the measure of their iniquity. This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it . The substitution of the laws of men for the law of God, the exaltation, by merely human authority, of Sunday in place of the Bible Sabbath, is the last act in the drama. When this substitution becomes universal, God will reveal Himself. He will arise in His majesty to shake terribly the earth. He will come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity, and the earth shall disclose her blood and shall no more cover her slain. {7T 141.1} 

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work ." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8} 

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} 

[Green Cochoa]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

And how does God destroy?  By abandoning those who persistently and ultimately reject the righteousness of Christ and allowing sin, in all its dimensions, to take its natural course - i.e., to do its evil work of destruction.  

"My wrath shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ Deut 31:17

 

Robert,

You ask questions like a child would.  How can a parent, or even God as our parent, answer a child's questions with the full truth in a manner that the child would understand?  It is likely that I cannot answer for you either, nor even God, to help you understand what you need to know.  Jesus once said to His own disciples that there were other things He'd like to tell them, but that they were not ready to hear them.  That may well be where you are at.  May Jesus have compassion.  If you think, however, that you might understand a little beyond your present level, read on.

God has more than one way of punishing, just as a parent does.  Parents do not always whip a child.  Sometimes they make them go to their room in isolation.  Sometimes, perhaps, they send the child to bed without supper, or make the child sit silently in a chair for a certain length of time to think about their misdeeds.  God also gives out different punishments for different occasions.  During our millennium in heaven, Satan will be in "solitary confinement," bound to this earth with no one to tempt--like a child sitting silently for a period of time.  

Before probation closes, God's punishments can be as much a mercy as they might be a curse.  "For whom the LORD loveth, He correcteth."  "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous, therefore and repent."  After probation's close, His punishments are of an altogether different sort.  Satan, you recall, will perish in flames, not merely continue living in silence with no one to tempt.

During earth's probationary history, God's mercies are mixed with every one of His punishments.  Earthlings have never yet witnessed His wrath unmixed with mercy.  That day will come.

[Robert]

13 minutes ago, Robert said:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.  {GC 36.1} 

The above quote is one of my favorite Ellen White quotes on this subject.  God it not the executioner rather He abandons those who persistently reject His mercy and goodness to reap what they have sown.

The opposite of this truth, i.e., that God abandons,  is Satan's masterpiece of propaganda because he wishes that men would look upon God as  "a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”  Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.