Abortion...I would call this a theological issue

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Robert,

You ask questions like a child would.  How can a parent, or even God as our parent, answer a child's questions with the full truth in a manner that the child would understand?  It is likely that I cannot answer for you either, nor even God, to help you understand what you need to know.

Wow, you think rather highly of your intellect my man.  I think it is you who needs to learn of the Meek and Holy One.

Good day,

Robert

[Lauralea]

God does not destroy here and now in general but in the judgement day He will destroy Satan. Jesus says he will say to the wicked depart from me into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Yes I know the fire does not burn forever but the results are forever. While Satan did in a sense destroy himself he does not literally blot himself out of existence . That is the work of God. His strange work but His work nonetheless. 

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

The above quote is one of my favorite Ellen White quotes on this subject.  God it not the executioner rather He abandons those who persistently reject His mercy and goodness to reap what they have sown.

The opposite of this truth, i.e., that God abandons,  is Satan's masterpiece of propaganda because he wishes that men would look upon God as  "a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”  Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.

And who would be better able to describe the God Who is Love than a servant (or should I say slave) of the god of this world?

…3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.   2 Corinthians 4

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

On 9/10/2016 at 10:16 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

But what is the women who died while pregnant was a redeemed woman who believed in Jesus?  What about her fetus?

13For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. 14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.…Psalms 139

No one without sin will be excluded from the kingdom to come, be they excluded from temptations in the womb or born again and washed in the blood of the Lamb. IMHO

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Lauralea said:

Jesus says he will say to the wicked depart from me into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Yes I know the fire does not burn forever but the results are forever. While Satan did in a sense destroy himself he does not literally blot himself out of existence . That is the work of God. His strange work but His work nonetheless. 

• Would you agree that nothing can exist without God?

• Would you also agree that only God hath immortality?

  If so, then perhaps you would agree that God is the source of life for all created beings, including fallen angels. Do we agree thus far?

[Green Cochoa]

4 hours ago, Lauralea said:

God does not destroy here and now in general but in the judgement day He will destroy Satan. Jesus says he will say to the wicked depart from me into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Yes I know the fire does not burn forever but the results are forever. While Satan did in a sense destroy himself he does not literally blot himself out of existence . That is the work of God. His strange work but His work nonetheless. 

Where most are confused on this issue is the point of what it is that God destroys.  The sinner destroys his or her own character.  God destroys what's left (soul and body) in hell.  God never destroys our character.  Character is destroyed through choices, but God never forces a single one of our choices.  Once we have chosen our character, God chooses our destiny based on that character.

2 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

13For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. 14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.…Psalms 139

No one without sin will be excluded from the kingdom to come, be they excluded from temptations in the womb or born again and washed in the blood of the Lamb. IMHO

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

If in heaven we are as the angels, whose womb will harbor all those fetuses?  The Bible defines the soul by its breath.  Pre-birth fetuses will not be saved.  Neither will they be in hell.  They are yet soulless, having as yet not received the "breath of life."

[Green Cochoa]

Sperm and eggs are also "alive." But they do not breathe, and they are not persons possessed of a soul. The Catholic teaching makes them sacred, as if they were persons, and forbids any and all forms of contraceptions--because these "souls" were meant to be conceived and born. The Bible makes no such comment. Mrs. White expressly tells parents to control their family size. There is nothing sacred about the "egg," or the "seed," and there is no reason to bring into this world an innumerable company for whom one cannot properly provide.

So where is the line drawn? Does a zygote have a soul? a blastocyst? These forms do not even have any neurons as yet, much less a heart, a stomach, or any other organs or limbs.

The Bible's own distinction is made at birth.

Sons of the Israelites, and Jesus followed in this as well, were circumcised at the age of eight days. Now, if they had been "persons" before birth, why was not their age advancing even in the womb? Perhaps, instead of eight days, they should have been circumcised on the 278th day (assuming they were born on the 270th day following conception). But, no, they were considered but eight days old when they were circumcised. Even modern cultures generally regard one's age as being from birth, not from any time before birth.

Regarding "life," it goes all the way back to Adam in a single continuum of life. If any part of the "tree" had died between my own existence and that of Adam, I would not be here. The point in time in which my own existence became my own was my birth--when I began to breathe on my own and that umbilical cord connecting me to my mother was cut. That is a person's defining moment. Prior to that, a person is just an extension of the mother's life.

An interesting case might be made for the situation of Noah. He had three sons with him in the ark, and all four men had their wives. For nearly a year in the ark, they had nothing more to do than to care for the animals and themselves. What might they have done with their leisure time? I imagine they had a bit of quality time for their wives, time which would be productive of children.

 

The Bible said:

The children of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram. (Genesis 10:22)

Shem, the progenitor of Christ, is listed as having had five sons. Arphaxad appears to be the middle son. If this is truly the case, then Shem's wife was pregnant while on the ark. How would we know? Look at the following verse.

 

The Bible said:

These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: (Genesis 11:10)

Arphaxad, being the one to continue in the line of Christ, is the one for whom the years are mentioned. He is born two years after the flood. If two of his brothers were older than he (not a unique situation to have a younger one be the "birthright" son, seeing as Shem also was younger than Japheth), that would mean Shem's wife had had a baby in each of the two preceding years as well. Nor would this be especially unique, for Noah himself had had three sons in as many years, which I can mathematically prove from the Bible itself but won't take up extra space in this post to do.

Why would it be interesting to see if there were pregnancies in the ark? Look at Peter's words.

 

The Bible said:

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:20)

There were but eight souls that were saved in the flood.

I'll admit that the consideration of Arphaxad being the third son is an assumption that I cannot prove. But the order of mention does imply this, as the order is generally given by birth order in the Bible. If you believe that one has a soul while in the womb, you must also admit to making certain assumptions, including that none of Noah's daughters-in-law could have become pregnant while on the ark.

[Lauralea]

41 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Where most are confused on this issue is the point of what it is that God destroys.  The sinner destroys his or her own character.  God destroys what's left (soul and body) in hell.  God never destroys our character.  Character is destroyed through choices, but God never forces a single one of our choices.  Once we have chosen our character, God chooses...

 

Our salvation is based on trusting in His sacrifice His life and His power. He both justifies and sanctifies us if we continue to walk with Him. Yes one can destroy their own character and God then assents to the choice the unsaved person has made and sadly destroys them.

[Lauralea]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

• Would you agree that nothing can exist without God?

• Would you also agree that only God hath immortality?

  If so, then perhaps you would agree that God is the source of life for all created beings, including fallen angels. Do we agree thus far?

http://www.whiteestate.org/devotional/mar/12_09.asp this is one description in Ellen Whites writings regarding the final destruction of the wicked. The Great Controversy has more.  I am not able to copy and edit well on my smart phone, hence will not discuss this at length. While I agree with the above statements you made, the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy tell us plainly what happens to the unsaved and Satan at the end of time and no reasoning supersedes these. If you can present a substantial passage without commentary from the Bible or Spirit of Prophecy that says God does not kill the wicked at the end of time please post the link. It will require no commentary and I know there is not one in the Bible and since inspiration does not contradict itself there is none in the Spirit of Prophecy. I sincerely hope you reconsider your position brother. 

[Nic Samojluk]

On 9/10/2016 at 8:31 AM, Robert said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_lGDBMml28

 

I listened to this pro-life sermon by Adventist Pastor Tony Brandon several times before, but this is the first time I watched it as a well illustrated video. Thanks for posting it!

[LifeHiscost]

4 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Where most are confused on this issue is the point of what it is that God destroys.  The sinner destroys his or her own character.  God destroys what's left (soul and body) in hell.  God never destroys our character.  Character is destroyed through choices, but God never forces a single one of our choices.  Once we have chosen our character, God chooses our destiny based on that character.

If in heaven we are as the angels, whose womb will harbor all those fetuses?  The Bible defines the soul by its breath.  Pre-birth fetuses will not be saved.  Neither will they be in hell.  They are yet soulless, having as yet not received the "breath of life."

They are and do stay alive as a result of the breath received from the womb. However since the Word does not address this issue directly, I am not an expert on the issue. Here is a quote from a recent spiritual messenger.

]quote]  

es, 421, 422. {Hvn 44.1}

Lines Penned on the Death of Mrs. White’s Niece—Our fondest hopes are often blighted here. Our loved ones are torn from us by death. We close their eyes and habit them for the tomb, and lay them away from our sight. But hope bears our spirits up. We are not parted forever, but shall meet the loved ones who sleep in Jesus. They shall come again from the land of the enemy. The Life-giver is coming. Myriads of holy angels escort Him on His way. He bursts the bands of death, breaks the fetters of the tomb, the precious captives come forth in health and immortal beauty. {Hvn 45.1}

As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mothers’ arms. They meet again nevermore to part.But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. {Hvn 45.2}

Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads. God grant that the dear mother of “Eva” may be there, that her little wings may be folded upon the glad bosom of her mother.—The Youth’s Instructor, April, 1858 quoted in Selected Messages 2:259, 260. {Hvn 45.3}

Families and Friends Reunited—The living righteous are changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” At the voice of God they were glorified; now they are made immortal and with the risen saints are caught up to meet their Lord in the air. Angels “gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Little children are borne by holy angels to their mothers’ arms. Friends long separated by death are united, nevermore to part, and with songs of gladness ascend together to the City of God. {Hvn 45.4}

   [/quote]

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

...when I began to breathe on my own and that umbilical cord connecting me to my mother was cut. That is a person's defining moment. Prior to that, a person is just an extension of the mother's life.

Boy, the abortion industry would love to have you as their spokesperson.  But let's not stop here.  Africans were considered subhuman and this type of thinking justified slavery in America.  

And what led to the holocaust?  The same type of justification - less than human...soulless perhaps?

And what about the elderly - the ones in rest homes - a drag on society?  How about we make "green wafers " * out of them to feed the masses? 

* see the movie "Soylent Green"

 

[Robert]

8 hours ago, Lauralea said:

http://www.whiteestate.org/devotional/mar/12_09.asp this is one description in Ellen Whites writings regarding the final destruction of the wicked. The Great Controversy has more.  I am not able to copy and edit well on my smart phone, hence will not discuss this at length. While I agree with the above statements you made, the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy tell us plainly what happens to the unsaved and Satan at the end of time and no reasoning supersedes these.

Ellen White is not, and has never been, the measuring stick of truth.  She had limited light.  

The Bible, according to her, is the measuring stick of truth.  So the litmus test for truth should be the Bible.  Otherwise we are no different than the Catholics and their relationship to the Pope.   When we make Ellen White the infallible source of truth we make her Pope of Adventism.

Here's my question:  Why would God suddenly change how He has thus far dealt with sin?  

Keep in mind Christ became sin, who as God knew no sin.  Did God the Father send down fire and brimstone upon Christ? No, He abandoned Christ.

The wicked die because God abandons the earth.  With nature's God removed this world will come apart.  Reality doesn't exist outside God for He is the Author of life.

Again, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves (i.e., he abandons) the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." {GC 36.1} 

This statement is fully in line with the Bible. 

[Green Cochoa]

4 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

They are and do stay alive as a result of the breath received from the womb. However since the Word does not address this issue directly, I am not an expert on the issue. Here is a quote from a recent spiritual messenger.

]quote]  

es, 421, 422. {Hvn 44.1}

Lines Penned on the Death of Mrs. White’s Niece—Our fondest hopes are often blighted here. Our loved ones are torn from us by death. We close their eyes and habit them for the tomb, and lay them away from our sight. But hope bears our spirits up. We are not parted forever, but shall meet the loved ones who sleep in Jesus. They shall come again from the land of the enemy. The Life-giver is coming. Myriads of holy angels escort Him on His way. He bursts the bands of death, breaks the fetters of the tomb, the precious captives come forth in health and immortal beauty. {Hvn 45.1}

As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mothers’ arms. They meet again nevermore to part.But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. {Hvn 45.2}

Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads. God grant that the dear mother of “Eva” may be there, that her little wings may be folded upon the glad bosom of her mother.—The Youth’s Instructor, April, 1858 quoted in Selected Messages 2:259, 260. {Hvn 45.3}

Families and Friends Reunited—The living righteous are changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” At the voice of God they were glorified; now they are made immortal and with the risen saints are caught up to meet their Lord in the air. Angels “gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Little children are borne by holy angels to their mothers’ arms. Friends long separated by death are united, nevermore to part, and with songs of gladness ascend together to the City of God. {Hvn 45.4}

   [/quote]

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

LifeHisCost,

Apparently, Eva was about six weeks old when she died.  I wonder what the Tree of Life does for nursing infants who no longer have a breast to lean on.  That will be interesting to watch!

 

[Green Cochoa]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Ellen White is not, and has never been, the measuring stick of truth.  She had limited light.  

The Bible, according to her, is the measuring stick of truth.  So the litmus test for truth should be the Bible.  Otherwise we are no different than the Catholics and their relationship to the Pope.   When we make Ellen White the infallible source of truth we make her Pope of Adventism.

Here's my question:  Why would God suddenly change how He has thus far dealt with sin?  

Keep in mind Christ became sin, who as God knew no sin.  Did God the Father send down fire and brimstone upon Christ? No, He abandoned Christ.

The wicked die because God abandons the earth.  With nature's God removed this world will come apart.  Reality doesn't exist outside God for He is the Author of life.

Again, "God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves (i.e., he abandons) the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." {GC 36.1} 

This statement is fully in line with the Bible. 

Robert,

Sin doesn't kill of itself.  Had Adam and Eve been permitted to continue eating of the Tree of Life, we would have had immortal sinners.  That is why God was forced to deprive them of its fruit, to prevent such a horror.  God is the righteous Judge who will finally end sin and sinners.  I'm so glad God takes responsibility for cleaning up the mess.

[Robert]

9 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Robert,

Sin doesn't kill of itself.

Sin is a condition....And yes, "the wages of sin is death"...The first death is the result of sin.

The 2nd death is "the curse of the law".  It is God abandonment because one has persistently chosen to live his life without God.

Quote

Had Adam and Eve been permitted to continue eating of the Tree of Life, we would have had immortal sinners

No, wrong....Immortal health-wise, but not immortal if one is murdered.  Adam and Eve were "flesh and blood" and not spiritual beings. 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

9 minutes ago, Robert said:

Sin is a condition....And yes, "the wages of sin is death"...The first death is the result of sin.

The 2nd death is "the curse of the law".  It is God abandonment because one has persistently chosen to live his life without God.

No, wrong....Immortal health-wise, but not immortal if one is murdered.  Adam and Eve were "flesh and blood" and not spiritual beings. 

If I work a solid day's labor, and my wages are $120, did the dollars pay me?  Who paid me my wages?  Wages do not pay themselves!

God will pay the wages.  He tells us so.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12)

[Bravus]

It's a longish thread and it's got a bit afield from the topic.

I am anti-abortion.

I also recognise that about 3% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortion and the other 97% is providing healthcare for women, and that no public funding is used to fund abortion.

As such, I am anti-abortion and anti-defunding Planned Parenthood.

If those seeking to defund it are proposing to replace it with better cheap and free medical care for women who need it, all well and good.

I suspect instead they are content to leave those women uncared for, so long as their own theological purity can be maintained.

Serve those in need: it's what Jesus did. 

[Green Cochoa]

12 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

It's a longish thread and it's got a bit afield from the topic.

I am anti-abortion.

I also recognise that about 3% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortion and the other 97% is providing healthcare for women, and that no public funding is used to fund abortion.

As such, I am anti-abortion and anti-defunding Planned Parenthood.

If those seeking to defund it are proposing to replace it with better cheap and free medical care for women who need it, all well and good.

I suspect instead they are content to leave those women uncared for, so long as their own theological purity can be maintained.

Serve those in need: it's what Jesus did. 

You seem sensible on the issue.

I am not pro-abortion.  I am anti-legislation on the matter.  If abortions become illegal, what will we do to investigate every "crime scene" miscarriage?  Furthermore, what about women in the <1% of cases whose lives may be threatened….just let those die since they are such a small minority? 

Because the Bible does not teach that abortion is murder, I feel no need to legislate my personal conscience on the matter for all.  The Bible, in fact, leaves the matter quite ambiguous, with far more positive to say toward abortion than negative.  "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."  I  have nothing against folks having a strong opinion.  I am simply against their opinions becoming laws.  Such laws remove freedom of choice in a domain that is unclear and should be left to individual judgment/conscience.

Mrs. White has told us, albeit on a different topic, that we need not err, but if we err it should be on the side of the people.  In other words, let people have some freedom of choice for themselves.

 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12)

Rom 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done."

God's wrath is what?  His reluctant departure from those who persist in unbelief. 

[Bravus]

I haven't had an abortion, and don't intend to.

[Gregory Matthews]

I was not aware that a recommendation had been made for you to have an abortion.

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

You seem sensible on the issue.

Really?  If some agrees with you they are sensible...if not?

Quote

I am not pro-abortion.  I am anti-legislation on the matter.

That is like stating I am not pro-marijuana.  I am anti-legislation on the matter.

What does Paul say?  

Rom 13:10 "Love (agape)  does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

 

[LifeHiscost]

10 hours ago, David Geelan said:

It's a longish thread and it's got a bit afield from the topic.

I am anti-abortion.

Serve those in need: it's what Jesus did. 

We could continue round and round and never really be fully on track. I'm satisfied with this left in the hand of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-zwE33zHA

Judgement to a disciple of Christ is good news, to those who will accept it from His hand along with recognition and repentance for their undone condition.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Outta Here]

5 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

We could continue round and round and never really be fully on track. I'm satisfied with this left in the hand of God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-zwE33zHA

Judgement to a disciple of Christ is good news, to those who will accept it from His hand along with recognition and repentance for their undone condition.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

Amen!