The 144,000

July 6, 2017

On 7/1/2017 at 8:37 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Here how Satan has come in and trick us! Having us to believe that the Time of Trouble we will be persecuted. That is wrong and the Bible does no said that anywhere, if so show me.

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time." (Dan. 7:25)

"He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people." (Dan. 8:24)

"The invader will do as he pleases; no one will be able to stand against him. He will establish himself in the Beautiful Land and will have the power to destroy it." (Dan. 11:16)

"When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” (Dan. 12:7)

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. ¹⁰They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,^[e] were killed just as they had been" (Rev. 6:9-11)

"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." (Rev 12:17)

"The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them." (Rev. 13: 5-7)

"The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."(Rev 13:15-17)

Is that a good start?

July 7, 2017

On 7/2/2017 at 9:23 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

It's just my opinion, but I believe a great number of saints from the OT age were resurrected by Christ, just after He came forth from His tomb.

Matthew 27:51 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many."

I believe these saints became the 24 Elders, who present incense, "which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).   The 24 Elders do say they were "redeemed" to God by the blood of Christ (Rev. 5:9).

The number 24, is taken from King David's division of the priesthood into 24 courses, who rotated their service every two weeks, based upon the Hebrew calendar and their clans (1Chronicles Cpt 24-25). John's Jewish readers would have been familiar with that number, because it was part of the Temple ceremony.

So - I believe there are more than just 24 persons, who were resurrected, and who are now in Heaven. Only 24 serve before God's throne - at any one time - but we don't know how many were actually resurrected and ascended with Christ to Heaven.    It could possibly have been ALL of the saints from the Old Testament era.

Interesting... yes there were many that came up from the dust at Jesus' resurrection possibly 400 or 500 from all through time but they are not the 24 elders. Those elders are already in place before Christ comes to heaven to see if His sacrifice was perfect. Rev. 4 has them already in place even before Jesus arrives (the lamb slain). Also, if you look at the Greek, the word 'us' does not appear. So, read the text without 'us' and it reads just fine. There are 'courts' plural in heaven and I have no doubt that the group is a part of some other court, but not the 24 elders.

July 11, 2017

On 7/3/2017 at 10:21 PM, stinsonmarri said:

You are correct but remember it was a great multitude. So some are there to witness the Investigated Judgment in the Heavenly Courtroom. All those who went to Heaven from death or translation down through Adam until YAHSHUA was resurrected, have to be sealed first. That is why SDA do not understand that the horses represent different periods of the earth. Gen Chapter six!

White Horse (earth) When it was pure but the riders were Adam and his wife-sealed

Red Horse (earth) First time it experience blood of man. Rider Cain but save Abel to Methuselah-sealed

Black Horse (earth) Paganism grew so rapidly after the flood, man was scattered, but trade started. YAHWEH still had the Word and THE HOLY RUACH! Rider Nimrod-Noah to (YAHSHUA) the Apostles-sealed

Gray Horse (earth) now the earth is beginning to start dying because of so much sin. Paganism have corrupted the church making a false claim. THE SACRED NAMES removed and using pagan names, tried to change the Sabbath, making and painting false representation of YAHWEH and YAHSHUA. All of the Commandments dealing with ELOHIYM were completely changed, that HONOR THE MOST HIGH. Ex 1-11 The rider the Papacy, but those saved are Martyrs that died for THE MOST HIGH! From the Nicene decreed of burning the first true people of YAHWEH in arena's down to the beginning of the Middle Ages-sealed

No more horses-5th seal the Inquisition and killing of martyrs who stood up for the truth. The Middle Ages the Waldensians through the discovery of America who lived up to all the truth they knew and died-sealed

sixth seal- (great wars, earthquakes, floods, tornadoes plus other climate disasters each all over the earth and oceans more and violence is rapid also the love man has wax cold even in the church! The earth itself is sick and is about to die NOW!!!!!!) Many like the Sabbath Baptist and others here in America, then the Millerite Movement that spread to Europe, the true pioneers of the SDA movement to the 144,000 who will stand and bring the harvest known as the Great Multitude -sealed. The Great Multitude will be sealed under the Seventh seal during the Time of Trouble, that will start 1-5th Trumpets. Rev 9:4 The 144,000 WILL NOT BE PERSECUTED. They will have The Two Witness-the Bible and just like Moses in Egypt, a comet hits 1/3 of the earth, mountainous asteroid hitting 1/3 of the sea, meteorites hitting the moon and the sun moving them out of their place, meteorites hitting the drinking water. Healing, raising the dead by them and with them the FULL POWER of THE HOLY RUACH of The Loud Cry is upon them, these are the five wise virgins with their lamps going out to bring in the harvest and they all will meet the BRIDEGROOM when HE comes. Sealed These last two groups are the remnant and will be translated! HalleuYAH, meaning praise YAH!

Blessings to all!

I can agree with you on this.... the horses represent the churches all through time....pure church Adam and Eve before the fall, also Pentecost church, etc.

July 12, 2017

22 hours ago, Rahab said:

I can agree with you on this.... the horses represent the churches all through time....pure church Adam and Eve before the fall, also Pentecost church, etc.

Respectfully, I can't agree. The white horse - whose rider carries a bow but no arrows - is the emergence of the antichrist/beast power. The red horse is wars and rumors of wars. The black horse is financial and social upheaval. The pale horse is major war/persecution, famine, and disease.

This follows the discourse of Jesus in Matt. 24 where he says the first thing to watch for are false Messiahs. The antichrist (the rider of the first horse) is THE false messiah.

The second thing Jesus warns of is wars and rumors of wars (possibly instigated by the emerging antichrist) - the second horse. Jesus tells us that this is just the beginning of woes - like the beginning of birth pangs.

The third thing Jesus warns of is famines and natural disasters - resulting in social and economic upheaval - the 3rd horse.

The 4th thing Jesus warns us of is persecution, apostasy, and the general loss of love among people, resulting in a great death toll - the 4th horse.

Just my opinion...

July 12, 2017

7 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Respectfully, I can't agree. The white horse - whose rider carries a bow but no arrows - is the emergence of the antichrist/beast power. The red horse is wars and rumors of wars. The black horse is financial and social upheaval. The pale horse is major war/persecution, famine, and disease.

This follows the discourse of Jesus in Matt. 24 where he says the first thing to watch for are false Messiahs. The antichrist (the rider of the first horse) is THE false messiah.

The second thing Jesus warns of is wars and rumors of wars (possibly instigated by the emerging antichrist) - the second horse. Jesus tells us that this is just the beginning of woes - like the beginning of birth pangs.

The third thing Jesus warns of is famines and natural disasters - resulting in social and economic upheaval - the 3rd horse.

The 4th thing Jesus warns us of is persecution, apostasy, and the general loss of love among people, resulting in a great death toll - the 4th horse.

Just my opinion...

White horse is the pure church... with power (bow) but does not attack ( no arrows)

Agree with you that the red horse, black and pale all represent attacks on the church: persecutions, wars, famine, etc.

July 15, 2017

Rahab: It is not churches at all! First read Revelation Chapter Five. THE FATHER is sitting on the Throne and HE has a Book in HIS RIGHT HAND that has seven seals on the backside of it. A strong angels cry out who will open the Book. No man was able to open the Book and John weeps. He knows that something is important about opening the Book. The one of the elder's tell him not to weep because THE LAMB, YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH is able to open the Book. HE takes it out of THE FATHER'S HAND and opens each seal. White always stands for purity and only one time on this earth has it been pure. Keep in mind we are dealing with the sealing process. SDA gets a sign and a seal mixed up, they are two different things. The Sign of ELOHIYM is the Sabbath. The seal of ELOHIYM is when THE HOLY RUACH/SET APART ONE removes sin and then HE seals you. Eph 1:13; 4:30

Revelation Chapter Six deal with four horses representing the earth, the rider is man; the color of the horses represent the condition of the earth during periods of time. All those who had died and those in Heaven had to sealed during certain periods of time. The clue is both the color of the horse and who is actually the rider. John was given what was going to take place in the last days. In 1844 started the last days and Judgment of all mankind begin when YAHSHUA THE LAMB/MEDIATOR stood before HIS FATHER THE JUDGE and beside the Prosecutor who is not Satan. It is ELOHIYM'S LAW it is the one that says you must die if you break even one of them. It is the Law how you will be judge and sealed!!!!! Psa 19:7; Prov 6:23; Jer 2:11; Rom 2:27

Sealing is a process and returning to perfection or simply put, we have to stop sinning. Sinning is the transgression of the Law! The earth is dying because of us. It feels and it has life! It crys out when it first tasted blood that Cain did to Able. The pale horse shows that from the time of the Middle Ages until now the earth has throwing up with sickness (Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, tsunami, drought, fire that are hard to put out, and icebergs are melting etc.), it is dying!!! Even the scientist knows something is going to happen to this earth. They think they can escape to another planet but it will never happen. Sad to say we the church are blinded, we are not paying attention to what's happening. Even with YAHWEH allowing Trump to be our President to show the Republican party that they are not serving HIM as they claim. They cannot see that this man is a liar and he sold himself and his children souls to Russia. It is all about money and greed and he is using the 36% his followers. He said he can shoot a man on 5th ave. and his followers will still follow him! He is not the beast, but he is opening the door for USA to unite. Watch and see but you better be prepared for what is coming ahead! The people that need the affordable health care the most are his people and he is selling them out! Trump made a mockery of the Republican candidates who were running for president. They are scare of him because of their constituents in their area will not vote for them! I tell you I have never seen anything like Trump's followers. They will follow him to depth of the earth and he can do not wrong, just like Satan and his angels. That why you have to understand the horses, your life depends on it!

Be bless and Happy Sabbath!

July 21, 2017

On 7/1/2017 at 7:37 PM, stinsonmarri said:

So many are hung on the Hebrews who in Deut Chapter 28 was warned if they did not followed Him and be obedient, their seed would be wiped off the earth.

If we take a few verses of Deuteronomy 28 out of context, we can misconstrue those to say that the descendants of the Israelites will be wiped off the earth. But that is not what it says in context. God preserves a remnant of his people and God keeps his covenants and promises, even the promises that he made to those who have long been dead. See Romans 9-11.

The covenant that God made with the Israelites has no provision for the nation of Israel to get out of that covenant, even if they wanted to. Individuals who rebelled would be cut off from Israel and loose their place in the covenant, but even after the Israelite nation rebelled and was sent into exile, God sent word through the prophets that he would not abandon the nation of Israel as long as day and night would last, and that he would be faithful to the nation of Israel not because of anything they did or didn't do, but for His own name's sake (Jeremiah and others). If the Israelites or the Jews are suffering the curses of the covenant then the covenant itself must still be valid.

On 7/1/2017 at 7:37 PM, stinsonmarri said:

While the Jewish religion began in the Near East, and the Ashkenazi Jews were believed to have origins in the early indigenous tribes of this region, new evidence from mitochondrial DNA, which is passed on exclusively from mother to child, suggests that female ancestors of most modern Ashkenazi Jews converted to Judaism in the north Mediterranean around 2,000 years ago and later in west and central Europe.

What you say about the Ashkenazi Jews may be true, but irrelevant. Although Jewish tradition traces genealogy through the mothers, the Bible traces genealogy primarily through the fathers. There are also a large number of Sephardic Jews, which are quite distinct from the Ashkenazi.

On 7/1/2017 at 7:37 PM, stinsonmarri said:

All of this proves that that the Hebrews were Semitic and mix with the Hamitic people. After the last dispersion the Hebrew finalized the curse. They said let "HIS BLOOD be on us and our children." The prophecy was fulfilled that already was given in both Gen 9:27, that "Japheth shall dwell in the tents of Shem." Then YAHWEH gave both blessings if they obeyed and curse of removing their seed if they didn't. Gen 28

Genesis 28 doesn't contain such a curse. Perhaps you were referring to your interpretation of Deut. 28.

The Christian church has made much of the supposed "curse" that a rebellious crowd of Jewish people called out to Pilate, "His blood be on us and on our children." Yet that is not how the apostles interpreted that situation. Look at Peter's two sermons in Acts 2 and 3. The apostles don't play the "blame game" for the death of Messiah because they knew that Jesus came to earth intending to die on purpose -- it was part of God's plan.

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Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (Acts 2:22-23)

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The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.
And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. (Acts 3:13-21)

Although Peter makes it clear that the people he is talking to are guilty, Peter also makes it clear that the part they acted was part of God's plan and that forgiveness was freely available to the many tens of thousands of Jews and Israelites who accepted Jesus. Peter also makes it clear that all the things which God spoke through the prophets long ago about restoring all things would still be fulfilled. The notion that those prophetic promises to Israel were "conditional" and that the Jews failed somehow to satisfy the supposed [non-scriptural] "conditions" is not substantiated in the New Testament. God stands by his word and keeps his covenants and promises to Israel.

Also, if you just look at the statement, "His blood be on us and our children," you may notice that Christians sing hymns that extol the virtues of being "washed in the blood" of Messiah. The New Testament teaches that those who are cleansed by Messiah's blood, the blood of the New Covenant, are figuratively sprinkled with that blood just as the Israelites were sprinkled by Moses with the blood of the original covenant. So having "His blood be on us and on our children" turns out to be a very good thing, once a person has properly repented, as Peter instructed the Jews from many nations in his sermon.

July 22, 2017

Rahab: It is not churches at all! First read Revelation Chapter Five. THE FATHER is sitting on the Throne and HE has a Book in HIS RIGHT HAND that has seven seals on the backside of it. A strong angels cry out who will open the Book. No man was able to open the Book and John weeps. He knows that something is important about opening the Book. The one of the elder's tell him not to weep because THE LAMB, YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH is able to open the Book. HE takes it out of THE FATHER'S HAND and opens each seal. White always stands for purity and only one time on this earth has it been pure. Keep in mind we are dealing with the sealing process. SDA gets a sign and a seal mixed up, they are two different things. The Sign of ELOHIYM is the Sabbath. The seal of ELOHIYM is when THE HOLY RUACH/SET APART ONE removes sin and then HE seals you. Eph 1:13; 4:30

Revelation Chapter Six deal with four horses representing the earth, the rider is man; the color of the horses represent the condition of the earth during periods of time. All those who had died and those in Heaven had to sealed during certain periods of time. The clue is both the color of the horse and who is actually the rider. John was given what was going to take place in the last days. In 1844 started the last days and Judgment of all mankind begin when YAHSHUA THE LAMB/MEDIATOR stood before HIS FATHER THE JUDGE and beside the Prosecutor who is not Satan. It is ELOHIYM'S LAW it is the one that says you must die if you break even one of them. It is the Law how you will be judge and sealed!!!!! Psa 19:7; Prov 6:23; Jer 2:11; Rom 2:27

Sealing is a process and returning to perfection or simply put, we have to stop sinning. Sinning is the transgression of the Law! The earth is dying because of us. It feels and it has life! It cry out when it first tasted blood that Cain did to Able. The pale horse shows that from the time of the Middle Ages until now the earth has throwing up with sickness (Earthquakes, floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, typhoons, tsunami, drought, fire that are hard to put out, and icebergs are melting etc.), it is dying!!! Even the scientist knows something is going to happen to this earth. They think they can escape to another planet but it will never happen. Sad to say we the church are blinded, we are not paying attention to what's happening. Even with YAHWEH allowing Trump to be our President to show the Republican party that they are not serving HIM as they claim. They cannot see that this man is a liar and he sold himself and his children souls to Russia. It is all about money and greed and he is using the 36% his followers. He said he can shoot a man on 5th ave. and his followers will still follow him! He is not the beast, but he is opening the door for USA to unite. Watch and see but you better be prepared for what is coming ahead! The people that need the affordable health care the most are his people and he is selling them out! Trump made a mockery of the Republican candidates who were running for president. They are scare of him because of their constituents in their area will not vote for them! I tell you I have never seen anything like Trump's followers. They will follow him to depth of the earth and he can do not wrong, just like Satan and his angels. That why you have to understand the horses, your life depends on it!

Be bless and Happy Sabbath!

July 22, 2017

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That why you have to understand the horses, your life depends on it!

Horses? And all this time I thought it was Christ we had to depend on for Life!!

July 22, 2017

On 7/20/2017 at 10:23 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

Also, if you just look at the statement, "His blood be on us and our children," you may notice that Christians sing hymns that extol the virtues of being "washed in the blood" of Messiah. The New Testament teaches that those who are cleansed by Messiah's blood, the blood of the New Covenant, are figuratively sprinkled with that blood just as the Israelites were sprinkled by Moses with the blood of the original covenant. So having "His blood be on us and on our children" turns out to be a very good thing, once a person has properly repented, as Peter instructed the Jews from many nations in his sermon

Amen, Ron! So many say the Jews were pronouncing a curse upon themselves; when they were prophesying a blessing upon the world.

"The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of joy instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display of his splendor." (Is. 61:1-4)

July 23, 2017

On 7/21/2017 at 0:23 AM, Ron Amnsn said:

Also, if you just look at the statement, "His blood be on us and our children," you may notice that Christians sing hymns that extol the virtues of being "washed in the blood" of Messiah. The New Testament teaches that those who are cleansed by Messiah's blood, the blood of the New Covenant, are figuratively sprinkled with that blood just as the Israelites were sprinkled by Moses with the blood of the original covenant. So having "His blood be on us and on our children" turns out to be a very good thing, once a person has properly repented, as Peter instructed the Jews from many nations in his sermon.

Just because Christians sing hymns about being "washed in the blood" of Jesus, has nothing to do with the statement made by the Jews who said "his blood be on us and our children!!!" Do you have Jewish relatives that make that statement????? "His blood be on us and our children!!!" Well I do, and they mean exactly what is says. Of course in this day and age, there not saying that to or about Jesus. But they mean it pretty much the same way when they say that to someone else that they are wishing a curse on! I remember when I was a young boy and playing with my cousin Sammy. I was chancing him and he ran out into the street and was hit by a car. His mother was yelling at me with all kinds of cursing. Saying to me that when I had a son or daughter that something should happen to them and that there blood be on her!!! So that's exactly what the Jews that were crying "Crucify him and let his blood be on us and our children!!" I also believe that if you ask Doug Batchelor, Steve Wohlberg, Alex Shuslor(sp), or any other Jewish/Adventist pastor, they will tell you that that is what the Jews meant!!!

July 23, 2017

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

Just because Christians sing hymns about being "washed in the blood" of Jesus, has nothing to do with the statement made by the Jews who said "his blood be on us and our children!!!" Do you have Jewish relatives that make that statement????? "His blood be on us and our children!!!" Well I do, and they mean exactly what is says. Of course in this day and age, there not saying that to or about Jesus. But they mean it pretty much the same way when they say that to someone else that they are wishing a curse on! I remember when I was a young boy and playing with my cousin Sammy. I was chancing him and he ran out into the street and was hit by a car. His mother was yelling at me with all kinds of cursing. Saying to me that when I had a son or daughter that something should happen to them and that there blood be on her!!! So that's exactly what the Jews that were crying "Crucify him and let his blood be on us and our children!!" I also believe that if you ask Doug Batchelor, Steve Wohlberg, Alex Shuslor(sp), or any other Jewish/Adventist pastor, they will tell you that that is what the Jews meant!!!

It is true that the "blood guilt" that the crowd referred to when calling out to Pilate is a very different concept than the "redeeming blood" that Christians and the New Testament refer to. Nevertheless, it is still the same blood -- the blood of the ultimate sacrifice, which John 11:51 tells us was specifically shed for the nation of Israel.

In light of what Peter preached to the crowd of Jews who were actually the ones guilty of uttering the "curse" (Acts 2 and 3), which part of what you said would be applicable to all the generations of Jews since the death of Jesus whose ancestors were not present in Pilate's judgement hall when that supposed "curse" was uttered and thus had no part in it?

I have no known Jewish relatives, except by my adoption into the commonwealth of Israel through the purchase of myself by Messiah, paid for with his blood. (And perhaps through a common ancestor such as Noah).

July 24, 2017

On 7/22/2017 at 7:17 PM, phkrause said:

Just because Christians sing hymns about being "washed in the blood" of Jesus, has nothing to do with the statement made by the Jews who said "his blood be on us and our children!!!" Do you have Jewish relatives that make that statement????? "His blood be on us and our children!!!" Well I do, and they mean exactly what is says. Of course in this day and age, there not saying that to or about Jesus. But they mean it pretty much the same way when they say that to someone else that they are wishing a curse on! I remember when I was a young boy and playing with my cousin Sammy. I was chancing him and he ran out into the street and was hit by a car. His mother was yelling at me with all kinds of cursing. Saying to me that when I had a son or daughter that something should happen to them and that there blood be on her!!! So that's exactly what the Jews that were crying "Crucify him and let his blood be on us and our children!!" I also believe that if you ask Doug Batchelor, Steve Wohlberg, Alex Shuslor(sp), or any other Jewish/Adventist pastor, they will tell you that that is what the Jews meant!!!

I remember the LORD said to Abraham, "I will curse him who curses you." That would be turning the curse BACK on the one who spoke it.

Does not the LORD often turn curses into blessings? Sarah's childlessness, for instance.

Balaam meant to speak curses, but instead spoke blessings. Why cannot this same principle apply to those who meant to curse Christ?

July 24, 2017

On 7/6/2017 at 9:14 PM, Rahab said:

Interesting... yes there were many that came up from the dust at Jesus' resurrection possibly 400 or 500 from all through time but they are not the 24 elders. Those elders are already in place before Christ comes to heaven to see if His sacrifice was perfect. Rev. 4 has them already in place even before Jesus arrives (the lamb slain). Also, if you look at the Greek, the word 'us' does not appear. So, read the text without 'us' and it reads just fine. There are 'courts' plural in heaven and I have no doubt that the group is a part of some other court, but not the 24 elders.

Not sure Rahab how you come to your conclusion that the 24 elders were "in place BEFORE Christ comes to heaven" (following His resurrection). I think you conclusion is a leap, and goes beyond the text.

Jesus remains "the Lamb slain" for all time. We do not know - absolutely WHEN the heavenly scene in Revelation 4 takes place, except that it is "after this" (Rev. 4:1) - meaning AFTER the day of John's vision.

July 24, 2017

On 7/2/2017 at 0:50 PM, Rahab said:

of all the people before the flood how many made it through? 8

of all the multitudes that came out of Egypt how many made it to the promised land? 2

this is truth.

We do not know how many persons from creation to the flood, actually sought the LORD and tried to follow His way. We know about Enoch. We know about Able and Seth. There probably were others who lived and died before the time of the flood. We know that only 8 of those living at the time of the flood, "made it through".

Of the multitudes who came out of Egypt, we know that THREE men crossed the Jordan into the promised land - Caleb, Joshua, and the High Priest Eleazar, son of Aaron (Joshua 24:33).

Rahab, I am scolding you, because I am a mother in Israel.

You posted "this is truth". But I showed you that your information was either not accurate, or not knowable.

On this forum, we debate folks view concerning what "is truth". Sometimes THE truth lies just beyond our present understanding.

July 25, 2017

Num 26:65 For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

July 25, 2017

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

July 25, 2017

Ron Amnsn: You said: “If we take a few verses of Deuteronomy 28 out of context, we can misconstrue those to say that the descendants of the Israelites will be wiped off the earth. But that is not what it says in context. God preserves a remnant of his people and God keeps his covenants and promises, even the promises that he made to those who have long been dead. See Romans 9-11.”

If you notice the time in history that the curse had not been fulfill yet!

But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Mat 17:12

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:11

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mat 23:37, 38

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luke 21:22, 24

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25

I will say this again, I am not a Gentile, the Gentiles are Japheth children. Paul wrote letters to them and one to the Hebrews. He never wrote one to Afrikan people which are Ham’s children. Why because truly YAHWEH came to us first! It is so sad that many have a hard time accepting this due to prejudice and racist beliefs. There is proof in the Bible but I will get a lot of flack because people want to always feel that one ethnic group is superior then other.

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Genesis 10:5

These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations. Genesis 10:20

These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations. Genesis 10:31

“For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites.” Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, I:6

The sons of Japheth formed the largest group descending from Noah and include the peoples mentioned in Genesis 10:2-5, especially the peoples in Asia Minor, Greece, Russia, Cyprus, and Southeastern Europe. These people later spread to other parts of the world. 2017 Bible.org

Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a “Jew”… 1980 edition of The Jewish Almanac

Now it is very possible that some who read this pamphlet may be one of those "brainwashed" Christians who will say: "But what you have told us is all from the Old Testament. We are New Testament Christians living in the age of grace and love, and in this age, the word GENTILE does refer to anyone who is not a Jew. My pastor said so!" So let's go to our Bible authority, Strong's Concordance and see how the word GENTILE is defined in New Testament Greek.

If you understand even a little concerning New Testament history, you know that it was written in Greek, not in Latin or English. As a result, we find the English word GENTILE, comes from the Greek word "ethnos," or on a very few occasions "Hellene." The word ETHNOS, which is the most frequent word, used means: "race, i.e., tribe, specifically a non-Judean (notice not non-Jew, but non-Judean) tribe, by implication a heathen. Also, translated GENTILE, HEATHEN, NATION, OR PEOPLE. No place does it mean "non-Jew."

In a few places where this word has been translated "Hellene", it means "A Hellene (Greek) or inhabitant of Hellas (Greece). In the New Testament the word ETHNOS occurs 164 times, while the word HELLENE is used but 27 times. Yet in spite of its original meaning, the translators of the King James Version, 1611, used ETHNOS, as GREEK 93 times; as HEATHEN 5 times; as NATIONS 64 times and as PEOPLE, two times. The word HELLENE, as translated from the Greek is GREEK 20 times, and GENTILE 7 times.

Now take a close look at the word ETHNOS and see how it has been translated. Notice two things in particular: (1) The definition in Strong's contains the words: "a race, i.e., a tribe." (2) The words "non-Jew" are italicized which indicates that this is an improper use. Lt. Col. Gordon Doctor of Letters, and Master of Theology

So do the Jews call all countries which are separated from them by sea, as Greece, Italy etc, which were given to the children of Japheth, of whom came the Gentiles. Geneva Study Bible

Thus, we have discovered the ancient seats of Japheth, Iapetos - , around the Caspian, the Euxine, the Aegean, and the north of the Mediterranean. From these coastlands they seem to have spread over Europe, northern, western, and southern Asia, and, both by Behring's Straits and the Atlantic, they at length poured into America. So true is it that Japheth was enlarged, and that by them were "the isles of the nations divided." Barnes' Commentary on Genesis 10 :5

The posterity of Japheth were allotted to the isles of the Gentiles, which were solemnly, by lot, after a survey, divided among them, and probably this island of ours among the rest. All places beyond the sea, from Judea, are called isles, Jer 25:22, and this directs us to understand that promise, Isa 42:4, the isles shall wait for his law, of the conversion of the Gentiles to the faith of Christ. Wesley's Commentary on Genesis 10 :5

You said: “What you say about the Ashkenazi Jews may be true, but irrelevant. Although Jewish tradition traces genealogy through the mothers, the Bible traces genealogy primarily through the fathers. There are also a large number of Sephardic Jews, which are quite distinct from the Ashkenazi.”

Oh yes it is very relevant because they have accepted a religion that YAHWEH left! Here is the problem that you do not get. The religion that has been adopted is no longer a true religion. It was against YAHSHUA while HE was on the earth.

This people draweth nigh unto ME with their mouth, and honoureth MR with their lips; but their heart is far from MR. But in vain they do worship MF, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mat 15:8; 9

Paul states this himself

For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in Judaism, how that beyond measure I persecuted the Assembly of ELOHIYM, and wasted it: Gal 1:13

The world today including SDA are so hung on a people and a religion who both are false and do not keep HIS Commandments. The Bible says if they speak not according to this word there is no light in them!

You said: “Genesis 28 doesn't contain such a curse. Perhaps you were referring to your interpretation of Deut. 28.

The Christian church has made much of the supposed "curse" that a rebellious crowd of Jewish people called out to Pilate, "His blood be on us and on our children." Yet that is not how the apostles interpreted that situation. Look at Peter's two sermons in Acts 2 and 3. The apostles don't play the "blame game" for the death of Messiah because they knew that Jesus came to earth intending to die on purpose -- it was part of God's plan.”

First, the Bible has no private interpretation, it is those who prefer to become delusional to believe a lie! Deut 28 curse was very plain and what ELOHIYM remove HE remove not you nor I can stop it! In Acts it clearly shows that there were those who tried to claim that the disciples were drunk! Peter also clearly spoke that YAHSHUA was crucified by them!

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. Men, Sons of Israel, hear these words: YAHSHUA of Nazareth, a MAN approved of ELOHIYM, having been approved among you by works of power and wonders and miraculous signs, which ELOHIYM did through HIM in your midst, as you yourselves also know, this MAN, who was SET APART was for this, by the foreknowledge and will of ELOHIYM, you delivered into the hands of the wicked and you crucified and killed. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that ELOHIYM made known this same YAHSHUA whom you crucified, HE is both YAHSHUA and MESSIAH. Act 2:13, 15, 22, 23, 36

Yes, YAHSHUA planned with the approval of HIS FATHER, was to die for all mankind, but not for Israel to kill HIM, and then curse their own children for the murder. However, YAHWEH knew that this was going to happen and warned them. All the knowledge they knew, receiving the Commandment and see YAHSHUA in HIS SPIRITUAL BODY and they ate with HIM and did not die! Still they had HIM killed, they brought the curse into fulfillment. The Bible prove that they would only have 490 years left and the light and their seed would be removed from them on. Simply put, all who come under the false religion of Judah must accept the truth in order to be saved.

You said: “Also, if you just look at the statement, "His blood be on us and our children," you may notice that Christians sing hymns that extol the virtues of being "washed in the blood" of Messiah. The New Testament teaches that those who are cleansed by Messiah's blood, the blood of the New Covenant, are figuratively sprinkled with that blood just as the Israelites were sprinkled by Moses with the blood of the original covenant. So having "His blood be on us and on our children" turns out to be a very good thing, once a person has properly repented, as Peter instructed the Jews from many nations in his sermon.”

To be honest with you, sprinkling of a lamb could never take a sin!

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Heb 10:4

How on earth can you say that they making the statement: "Let HIS BLOOD be on us and on our children," is a good thing???? Those who killed HIM never repented!

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2

Behold, HE cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see HIM, and they also which pierced HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of HIM. Even so, Amen. Rev 1:7

Let make this clear, we have a problem when we allow racism to get in the way of truth and facts. What is wrong with us is so unreal because all three sons came from Noah! We are all mankind, but Satan has entered in to cause hatred over skin color and who YAHWEH used first! I have heard that Gen Chapter 10 is not significant. Just last night I was told that ethnic things in the Bible are not important to salvation. I am here to tell all, that everything in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is significant to salvation! How do I know well let the Bible tell you instead of me:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of ELOHIYM, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of ELOHIYM may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2Ti 3:16, 17

Find a Hebrew today, I say to anyone, they are not here there is no way to test their DNA. Yes, you can say that a person came from the Middle East but what people. There was still noticeable Hebrews from all over the world in Acts Chapter 2, also many adopted the faith from other nations. But, even Paul wrote a book to the Hebrews and reminded them and warned them of the curse. People can be trace to their nationality and to say the Middle East is not a nationality, my friend!

And have tasted the good Word of ELOHIYM, and the POWERS of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves THE SON of ELOHIYM afresh, and put HIM to an open shame. But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. Heb 6:6-8

Blessings!

July 25, 2017

8thdaypriest

I believe the bible is the Word of God don't you?

July 25, 2017

Stinsonmarri:

Rom_2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

July 25, 2017

On 7/22/2017 at 11:23 AM, CoAspen said:

"You don't want to know the Truth, you want to know the truth as you understand it."

I am truly glad that you use the word understand. But, let's include THE HOLY RUACH/SET APART ONE, that lead those into all truth of understanding. You understand that the number 7 means perfection, and a woman represent a church, the 12 stars above her head represents the apostles. The 10 represents universal and let's see there's the four corners of the earth, four winds: north, south, east, west, then there is four horses. I say as the Bible use symbols for certain thing which are understandable and appears that the four horns on the altar is the same thing as the four winds, four corners all of them represents the earth! There were only seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues all understandable and consistent, yet not the four horses to represent the earth? Well, we all have to make our own choice, and I choose to accept the consistency of symbols that Bible portray. Oh, yeah, Daniel speaks of three religious/political powers but John in Revelation Chapters 13, 17 gives seven head which are the seven empires who ELOHIYM dealt with and HIS people. They are: Assyria, Egypt, Neo Babylon (that when the Chaldeans came from north Euphrates took over Babylon. This city was started and ruled by Ham's descendants.), Persia, Greece (this is in Revelation Chapter 17 that says five have fallen), (the one is during John's time) Pagan Rome, Papacy Rome (shortest empire that rule 1, 260 years that's find in Daniel Chapter 7). Well that's my understanding Co-Aspen!

Blessings!

July 25, 2017