The 144,000

[Ron Amnsn]

We know that among the Israelites at the time of Jesus there were at least a few righteous Israelites.  Luke tells us that the parents of John the Baptist were righteous.  And Jesus himself was a righteous Israelite who, as King of the Jews and Messiah, would probably count more than the average Israelite toward whatever number of righteous Israelites would be required by God to prevent the ultimate rejection of the Israelites as a nation. 

John 11:51, which was written several decades after the stoning of Stephen, tells us specifically that Jesus died for the nation of Israel.  Was the death of Jesus not enough to atone for the sins of the Israelites as a nation?

[Ron Amnsn]

17 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I wasn’t referring to that even though you are trying to imply this situation to it and it does not fly!

I apologize if I tried to assign words or ideas to you that were not your own.  I thought I was careful not to say anything about what you had said, and that I was careful to specify that what I wrote was about other erroneous beliefs that are common among Christians today.

[Ron Amnsn]

17 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

If you would be kind and check up on your history you will find how the word Jew came about.

I am aware that the term "Jew" is often not a useful designation.  You may notice that I usually use the word "Jew" either with its meanings as used in the New Testament, or with its common meaning as it is used in English today.  When I refer to the descendants of Jacob, either modern or ancient, I usually use the term "Israelite". 

In the New Testament the term "Jew" has various meanings.  Often it refers to those who live in Judea.  Sometimes it refers to those who have political or religious power in Jerusalem.  Sometimes it refers to those who are classified as Jews by the Romans and therefore are exempted from participating in the pagan religions of Rome.

[Ron Amnsn]

17 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

One thing that the Bible is famous about is symbols: Satan is the dragon/serpent; certain animals are called beasts symbolizing empires; horns-kingdoms, tyrant; water people; wind strife; three, four, seven, ten are also use for symbolic thing, woman is describe as good church and deck woman pagan church etc. There are a lot of symbols and YAHWEH does not leave us ignorant on what they mean so see if you can understand what a house symbolize.

Yes, the Bible does use symbols.  However, it seems that the correct interpretation of the symbols would agree with all the other plain non-symbolic statements that God and his inspired writers make in the rest of the Bible.  You have chosen to interpret the words of Jesus in Matthew 23:38 symbolically in a way that contradicts the plain statements of God and his inspired writers made elsewhere in Scripture.  That seems totally unnecessary when there is already a plain non-symbolic interpretation of Matthew 23:38 that agrees with all the plain non-symbolic statements found in the Bible. 

According to the New Testament verses that you quoted, Jesus reiterated the prophecy of Isaiah regarding the Temple in Jerusalem being "called a house of prayer for all people".  That prophecy of Isaiah (and Jesus) has not yet been fulfilled.  In all those passages the Temple in Jerusalem is referred to by God as "My" house.  In contrast to that, Jesus spoke in Matthew 23:38 about a house that belongs to Jerusalem rather than to God, a house that was already desolate and would be left desolate until a specific event occurred.

In short, your symbolic interpretation of the passage would not pass a chronological test by Scripture, and would make Jesus a false teacher.  Let me explain. Scripture teaches us that we must diligently test the teachings of anyone claiming to have a message from God to see whether that teaching agrees with God's Word that has previously been given. God commanded through Moses that this be done -- it is not optional.  If the righteous students of Scripture living at the time of Jesus had tested the words of Jesus to see whether he was a true teacher and a possible candidate to be the Messiah foretold in Scripture, those righteous students of Scripture would have found that when Jesus' words in Matthew 23:38 were given your interpretation those words would contradict the Word of God given by Moses, by Jeremiah, and by other prophets of God. Those righteous students of Scripture would have necessarily concluded that if Jesus intended to say what you claim Jesus intended to say, that Jesus would be a false teacher who could not possibly be the true Messiah.

 

[Ron Amnsn]

19 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Have you carefully read this? This very passage shows clearly that YAHWEH was about to remove their seed then, but again had mercy on them.

I don't know how to respond to your bizarre claim about the passage.    I have carefully read the passage in several versions in the context of Jeremiah 33 and the rest of Jeremiah.  If YHWH was "about to remove their seed", then according to the plain text such a thing could only possibly happen at the time when God's covenant for day and night no longer stands.  Since God's covenant with Noah and the animals still stands, as shown by the rainbow and the reliable continuation of day and night, we know that God has not rejected the descendants of Jacob.  The passage is a stern rebuke directly from God to those who say something very similar to what you seem to be saying.

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/6/2017 at 0:51 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

I don't know how to respond to your bizarre claim about the passage.    I have carefully read the passage in several versions in the context of Jeremiah 33 and the rest of Jeremiah.  If YHWH was "about to remove their seed", then according to the plain text such a thing could only possibly happen at the time when God's covenant for day and night no longer stands.  Since God's covenant with Noah and the animals still stands, as shown by the rainbow and the reliable continuation of day and night, we know that God has not rejected the descendants of Jacob.  The passage is a stern rebuke directly from God to those who say something very similar to what you seem to be saying.

Ron: Just like YAHWEH took Sodom, Gomorrah and the other five cities around out! These people all were destroyed with Everlasting Fire, they were judge! They will not burn again because they are non existing! The Israelites were given the truth, also their elders, priest, Moses, Joshua all saw and ate with YAHSHUA! 430 years were given to the rest of Canaan and Israel was suppose to destroyed them they didn't. The will be resurrected to burn. Moses was given a book of blessings and curses and YAHWEH clearly stated what would happen to them because of what they knew. You nor I am ELOHIYM and HIS Word does not come back to HIM void! I have given clearly what the Bible said and they sealed the curse themselves when they themselves said: "Let HIS BLOOD be on us and our children." They are gone, you cannot find any traces of the Hebrew, they only will take if you have ancestry from the Middle East. They cannot provide Hebrew from Eber as they can with other DNA. The Bible does not lie! 

Blessings!

 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Israelites were given the truth, also their elders, priest, Moses, Joshua all saw and ate with YAHSHUA! 430 years were given to the rest of Canaan and Israel was suppose to destroyed them they didn't. The will be resurrected to burn.

This line of thought has led to the longest lived, most universal, and most severe persecution of any ethnic group in history.  for 2,000 years, Christians have justified persecuting those dirty Christ-killing Jews.  The Jews did not kill Christ; He voluntarily laid down His life for all humanity.  No matter what, the Jews and the rest of Israel will always be God's chosen people - not because that are good; but because He is good and honors His promises.  Read Genesis 15. It is a one-sided unconditional covenant that God made with Abraham where God swears on His own life that Abraham's seed will be His people.  There were absolutely no conditions put on Abraham.  Read Romans 11for a warning to Christians who are smug enough to think they are superior to Israel.

The Israelites have indeed suffered for breaking the Mosaic Covenant; they were cursed; but not abandoned.  The makeup of the 144,000 attests to this - 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.

[8thdaypriest]

I think we could all agree that the definition of "Israel" and "Israelite" is difficult.  Close behind is the definition of "Jew".

Why?  Because there is more than one definition for the word "Israel".  Depending on the context, the term is used to mean:   A.  the current nation/state of Israel  B. all those of Hebrew descent (whether secular or devout)   C.  all those who practice Judaism (the religion)   D.  all those who have entered into covenant with Yahweh through Jesus Christ (the true SEED of Abraham and KING of Israel)

With at least FOUR DEFINITIONS - it is difficult to pin down the meaning of Bible promises and prophecies.   Hence the debate. 

A "Jew" can be:   A. one who practices Judaism (with it's rejection of Jesus as the Christ/Messiah),   B.  one of Hebrew descent (from Abraham), whether secular or devout

 

[8thdaypriest]

I do not believe the LORD will fulfill His promises of blessing, to those who consciously have remained in a state of rebellion against Him (or rejection of Him) until their death. 

Eternal life is an individual gift - not a birthright.  God does not "save" whole earthly nations.  He saves individuals.  It is about faith - NOT RACE!!  Faith in Jesus - THE "seed" of Abraham - brings one into "Israel" - by adoption.  And "only Israel will be saved". 

There are TWO Israel's - the Israel above, and the earthly Israel. 

No one is saved or blessed because he was born a citizen of the earthly Israel.  In this sense, I disagree with Joe who seems to believe that God will fulfill promises of blessing to earthly DNA/Hebrew descendants of Abraham, just BECAUSE they were born of that line.  (Forgive me Joe, if I misunderstood what you believe.) THAT was the belief held by the authorities of Jesus day.  They believed they would be "saved" just because they were descendants of Abraham (or had fulfilled the rituals, including circumcision, to become Jews). 

Only those who are "born again" become citizens of the heavenly Israel.  They have come into covenant with God through Christ - THE true SEED of Abraham.  They will receive the promised blessings. 

I do not personally believe that anyone is physically BORN a citizen of the heavenly Israel.  Why?  Because infants cannot believe.  Infants cannot enter into covenant.  Infants cannot choose.  Infants and young children cannot be "born again". 

Infants, children, and those who died in ignorance will be resurrected at the 8th millennium to learn the truths of God, and then to CHOOSE whom they will serve. 

 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I disagree with Joe who seems to believe that God will fulfill promises of blessing to earthly DNA/Hebrew descendants of Abraham, just BECAUSE they were born of that line.  (Forgive me Joe, if I misunderstood what you believe.)

I apologize if I wasn't clear.  I understand that faith - not ethnicity - determines whether or not one is saved; whether Jew, Israelite, or Gentile.  I was railing against what I inferred to be an endorsement of replacement theology or supersessionism - that the Christian Church has replaced Israel as God's chosen people.  If I understand Romans 11 correctly, believing Gentiles are grafted in to spiritual Israel,  believing Israelites are not grafted in to spiritual Christianity.

I DO forgive you Rachel. 

[JoeMo]

"Question: "What is replacement theology / supersessionism?"

Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years? ..." From https://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html.  also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism.  Replacement theology has been the justification for persecuting Jews for 2,000 years.

For example, Martin Luther, the father of Protestantism and a "hero" in the SDA church, was an avowed Jew-hater.  

“Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Martin Luther recommended in On the Jews and Their Lies. Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.” Still, this wasn’t enough. Luther also urged that “safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews,” and that “all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them.” What Jews could do was to have “a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade” put into their hands so “young, strong Jews and Jewesses” could “earn their bread in the sweat of their brow".  IMHO, this was a direct result of Luther embracing replacement theology.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I apologize if I wasn't clear.  I understand that faith - not ethnicity - determines whether or not one is saved; whether Jew, Israelite, or Gentile.  I was railing against what I inferred to be an endorsement of replacement theology or supersessionism - that the Christian Church has replaced Israel as God's chosen people.  If I understand Romans 11 correctly, believing Gentiles are grafted in to spiritual Israel,  believing Israelites are not grafted in to spiritual Christianity.

I DO forgive you Rachel. 

Thank you Joe.  I agree with what you have written.  But I would add that those born into the Hebrew line, who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ (given enough information of course) are "broken off" from Israel.   Believers grafted IN.  Unbelievers broken off.  God's Israel - Bride of Christ - remains. 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

OK  You got me. What on earth is "Replacement Theology?" I am really behind the times with such things

"Replacement theology" was a doctrine cooked up by the Catholic Church, which says that the Christian Church is now God's "chosen people". 

I don't believe THAT any more than I believe every Hebrew will be "saved". 

Yes.  There are some - within the Christian Church - who have believed and walk with God.  Most are just buying "fire insurance". 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2,000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years? ..." From https://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html.  also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism.  Replacement theology has been the justification for persecuting Jews for 2,000 years.

I AGREE that the reappearance of "Israel" is a supernatural occurrence.  But supernatural does not always mean - "of God". 

 I am NOT ready to say that the LORD of Heaven is behind this. 

I believe that Satan could be behind this reappearance of the "nation of Israel".  Satan might be doing this to deceive Christian believers, (as well as Muslims) to bring them to worship the Antichrist (who may appear in a restored Temple as Christ come).  This may be the way in which he "will deceive - if possible - the very elect".   ( I do not see unbelieving Hebrews as "the very elect". Not in God's eyes anyway.)

Does it FIT with God's covenant law, to bless those who refuse to believe in His Son, or to bless a nation that is 90% secular (holding no belief in God at all).  

Paul writes:    "The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." (Gal 3:16 NIV) 

The unconditional promises would be fulfilled in Christ - NOT to all the Hebrew descendants (plural) of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  The Hebrew descendants of Abraham can partake of the promises ONLY IF they belong to Christ, because they believe in Him. 

I'm just saying, beware, stay alert, listen for the leading of God's spirit.   Do not accept something just because it "sounds logical". 

[stinsonmarri]

7 hours ago, JoeMo said:

This line of thought has led to the longest lived, most universal, and most severe persecution of any ethnic group in history.  for 2,000 years, Christians have justified persecuting those dirty Christ-killing Jews.  The Jews did not kill Christ; He voluntarily laid down His life for all humanity.  No matter what, the Jews and the rest of Israel will always be God's chosen people - not because that are good; but because He is good and honors His promises.  Read Genesis 15. It is a one-sided unconditional covenant that God made with Abraham where God swears on His own life that Abraham's seed will be His people.  There were absolutely no conditions put on Abraham.  Read Romans 11for a warning to Christians who are smug enough to think they are superior to Israel.

The Israelites have indeed suffered for breaking the Mosaic Covenant; they were cursed; but not abandoned.  The makeup of the 144,000 attests to this - 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.

What line of thought? Show me where Israel was the most persecuted people? This is the most biggest fairy tale to make an excuse for disobeying ELOHIYM! That has been the problem thinking that one ethic group is above another. Peter felt that way when he had the dream. Act 10:15 When Peter was told to eat THE VOICE said to him "Rise, kill and eat." It was Peter who said he never eat anything "common," unclean is correct. Where did he come up with common, unclean animal were not meant to eat because they are mostly scavengers. Why call them common? Then YAHWEH told never call what HE has cleanse common and if you look up the Greek word for common it is to make or consider profane or call common, defile, pollute, unclean. These concept has to do with ritualism and not at all with animals or eating. The Hebrews thought that the Gentiles were common and they were better or then them, they felt they were holy then all of the other nations. Sound just like SDA's today! Let's look at the blessings:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: Gen 12:2 

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. Gen 17:20 

Both Israel and Ishmael were to be great nations, but Israel name would also be great. There is a reason why they would have a great name.

Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. Deut 4:6 

Their name would be great because of their calling:

And ye shall be unto ME a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex 19:6 

For thou art a holy people unto YAHWEH thy ELOHIYM, and YAHWEH hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto HIMSELF, above all the nations that are upon the earth. Deut 14:2 

And YAHWEH hath avouched thee this day to be HIS peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all HIS Commandments; Deut 26:18 

Israel was given a condition to be Holy, a royal priesthood, peculiar people above all nations! Only if they would keep HIS Commandments like Abraham did. In each tribe the elders were suppose to be the priest but while Moses was receiving the Commandments, even the elders were worshiping the golden calf. These elders had actually seen YAHSHUA and ate with HIM and did not die! They saw ONE of the LIVING SPIRITUAL BEINGS:

Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw ELOHIYM of Israel: and under HIS FEET as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of Heaven in HIS Clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel HE laid not HIS HAND: also they saw ELOHIYM, and did eat and drink. Ex 24:9-11 

They had a special privilege but yet they worship a calf, and because of this a curse came by given the priesthood to the Levites. YAHWEH was very  long suffering, patience, merciful with Israel. Were they punish, yes twice they lost Jerusalem but by the time YAHSHUA became flesh, they were worst! The Levites and leaders were totally out of tune with the truth, they were not prepared to expect YAHSHUA to come. They were looking for some king that would release them from the yoke of Rome! They were chosen to teach all nations obedience to ELOHIYM'S Commandments; instead they had perverted the truth and thought they were better then the other nations. They forgot that YAHWEH put Daniel in Babylon to witness so Nebuchadnezzar and yes his daughter would be saved. I am sure there were others as well, why because of Daniel Chapter four! Nebuchadnezzar did what Israel's Kings did not do with the other nations. This letter proved that YAHWEH is no respect of persons it was an heathen king who was cleansed and spread the truth by YAHWEH not Israel!!!!

YAHSHUA came and HIS own receive HIM not! A devout man that feared ELOHIYM there were many like this man who were Latin and Greek that were also called. Yet the Hebrews had to come off their high horses so that the work would be spread to Japheth children now! The religion of Judea was now pagan and those called were to move forward.

YAHWEH came to Ham first, then Shem who was blessed to see YAHSHUA, hear HIM SPEAK, received the Commandment and Law written twice by THE FINGER of ELOHIYM. Received every imaginable miracles, protected in battles, name known among the nations. Now Japheth children would heed the call which many did. No one can say that YAHWEH did not work fairly among each of Noah's three sons. Because Israel was given more time and yet put on themselves a deeper curse on their own children that it would not go unnoticed! They were warned and even took an oath but fail on their promise and commitment to ELOHIYM. Justice is serve not by me nor can you change what happen. Stop making them out like they were so mistreated. They were never chattel slaves, branded like an animal, treated like an animal. I know and believe that the Hebrews that did obey will be saved. Noah was not a Hebrew going back to Adam we seem to forget about them. I told you about Sodom and Gomorrah who were judge with eternal fire! People of different nationalities have suffered, the American Indians, the South American Indians, Caribbeans Indians,Southern Indians of India, the Chinese, Aborigines, the Slavs, Iranians, Iraqis, Turds all who want to accept YAHSHUA! Afrika!!!!!! The list goes on and on and yes the Ashkenazi people in Russia and other places. Brother fighting brother!

But now there is a call to all nations, tongue and people, which is the same call given to Israel:

Who gave HIMSELF for us, that HE might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:14 

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of HIM who hath called you out of darkness into HIS marvelous light: 1Peter 2:9 

Truth hurts and history tells the same story that the Bible has outline. You can accept it and learn from it or reject it lose your soul over it! We all have hurt each other, it is time to stop and prepare to finish the work!!!! The choice is up to each everyone to make the right choice with prayer!

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Everyone has a different take on what is "a state of rebellion," and God deals nicely with that kind of thing by meeting us where we are at: John 6:37

While it is true God meets us where we are, if we're not in rebellion He does not leave us where we are. Even the thief on the cross, though dying as a result of his sinful life, turned from that rebellion and repented at the last moments of his life. Those who could be discouraged can take great solace in Jesus' response to him at that late point of his life.

³⁹ Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,^[b] save Yourself and us.”

⁴⁰ But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? ⁴¹ And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” ⁴² Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,^[c] remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

⁴³ And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[LifeHiscost]

BTW the comma in Jesus comment is more indicative of the Truth since Jesus was not raised from the dead until the first day of the week.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!        

 

[LifeHiscost]

1 minute ago, LifeHiscost said:

BTW the comma in Jesus comment is more indicative of the Truth since Jesus was not raised from the dead until the first day of the week.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!        

 

⁴³ And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

[stinsonmarri]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not believe the LORD will fulfill His promises of blessing, to those who consciously have remained in a state of rebellion against Him (or rejection of Him) until their death. 

Eternal life is an individual gift - not a birthright.  God does not "save" whole earthly nations.  He saves individuals.  It is about faith - NOT RACE!!  Faith in Jesus - THE "seed" of Abraham - brings one into "Israel" - by adoption.  And "only Israel will be saved". 

There are TWO Israel's - the Israel above, and the earthly Israel. 

No one is saved or blessed because he was born a citizen of the earthly Israel.  In this sense, I disagree with Joe who seems to believe that God will fulfill promises of blessing to earthly DNA/Hebrew descendants of Abraham, just BECAUSE they were born of that line.  (Forgive me Joe, if I misunderstood what you believe.) THAT was the belief held by the authorities of Jesus day.  They believed they would be "saved" just because they were descendants of Abraham (or had fulfilled the rituals, including circumcision, to become Jews). 

Only those who are "born again" become citizens of the heavenly Israel.  They have come into covenant with God through Christ - THE true SEED of Abraham.  They will receive the promised blessings. 

I do not personally believe that anyone is physically BORN a citizen of the heavenly Israel.  Why?  Because infants cannot believe.  Infants cannot enter into covenant.  Infants cannot choose.  Infants and young children cannot be "born again". 

Infants, children, and those who died in ignorance will be resurrected at the 8th millennium to learn the truths of God, and then to CHOOSE whom they will serve. 

 

You know black people are always accuse of the race card when stand up to how we have been treated. Yet, here is this race card about when it comes to Israel. Israel were a mixture of people, especially with the descendant of Ham. Race has nothing to do with anything in the Bible ethnicity did but not to put one over the other!  YAHWEH told Abraham out of his seed through Issac would become a great nation and a great name. So what so many people are hung with is this Jew word and Israel. How many of you had a course in ancient history? I am not trying to be smart. Remember Nimrod and the Bible said they all went in to Shinar and there were more then just Babylon! Erech, Accad, Calneh, Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,  and Resen. Babylon was the seat of the empire and the Bible only mention this city that they left building after their languages were confounded. Did you not forget these people married each other but base on the language and not any race the split up. The Bible gave you how they split in the previous chapter base on each son and his children. I did not read race in that too! 

Now according to the Bible Ham's children and Shem's children mix together first! Nineveh was mixed, Elam was mix before the Persians. Now the Egyptians did not depict in their drawing race but culture and nationality. DNA does not deal with race but ethnicity only. Man today come up with the race card base on the color of the skin and need to stop! Let's make this very clear about who became a Hebrew:

And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. And YAHWEH said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.  A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to YAHWEH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is home born, and unto the stranger that sojourned among you. Ex 12:38, 43-49 

I agree we need realize that Hebrew or Israel became a nation of different people including Greeks and Latin. However, Hebrews through Shem was called and it was this seed that we cannot find anymore that is what the Bible said if it is not true where are the Hebrews! Even the Ashkenazi state clearly the are not Hebrews and Gen 10 states this to be true as well!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Show me where Israel was the most persecuted people?

Ummm ...

How about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D by Rome, the decimation of Israel by Islam in the 7th though 10th centuries, the persecution of Jews by the Crusaders, the persecution on Jews throughout Europe and Russia for the past 1,000 years, the mass murder of 6 Million Jews by Nazi Germany as most Christian denominations stood idly by, the continued call by so-called "Christians" for Israel to give the land that God gave Israel back to the Palestinians, the mass hatred of Israel by most members of the United Nations, for a start.

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The Hebrew descendants of Abraham can partake of the promises ONLY IF they belong to Christ, because they believe in Him. 

Exactly; and we Gentiles can only be grafted into spiritual Israel if we belong to Christ.  If God casts out the natural branches (unbelieving Israel) because of their unbelief; will He not also cast out the grafted branches (unbelieving Gentiles) as well?

14 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I'm just saying, beware, stay alert, listen for the leading of God's spirit.   Do not accept something just because it "sounds logical". 

I'm not using my own "wisdom" to believe that the reestablishment of the nation of Israel - first for punishment and then for redemption.  It is prophesied throughout scripture.  Jeremiah 30 is one of the most graphic descriptions.

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/10/2017 at 9:50 AM, JoeMo said:

I'm not using my own "wisdom" to believe that the reestablishment of the nation of Israel - first for punishment and then for redemption.  It is prophesied throughout scripture.  Jeremiah 30 is one of the most graphic descriptions.

I don't understand this scenario.  So - you believe that Israel (the earthly nation of those claiming to be "Jews")  will:

return to "the land" --  be "established" in "the land"  --  be punished  --  then turn to Jesus Christ for redemption,

all BEFORE Jesus returns in glory.

Is that right?  Or does Jesus return BEFORE Jews (worldwide) turn to Him? 

Where is Jesus return in your scenario?

 

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't understand this scenario.  So - you believe that Israel (the earthly nation of those claiming to be "Jews")  will:

return to "the land" --  be "established" in "the land"  --  be punished  --  then turn to Jesus Christ for redemption,

all BEFORE Jesus returns in glory. Yes (for the most part).  Israel has already returned to the land - mostly secular but many religious Jews.  God will use the surrounding nations to "punish" them for their historic unbelief.  But - as in the past - those nations go too far.  And - as in the past - Israel will call out to God to save them; and He will by destroying the surrounding Muslim nations (at least destroying their military and political power structures).  It is possible that many currently secular Jews will turn to Christ in this period; but many secular Gentiles (including Muslims) will become "spiritual Jews" at this time  When God pours out His spirit on all mankind, it will have a powerful effect.  Then, when Jesus returns, many Jews will look upon Him whom they have pierced and repent deeply (mourn) when they realize that Jesus the Conquering King is the one and same guy who was the suffering Messiah whom they crucified.

Is that right?  Or does Jesus return BEFORE Jews (worldwide) turn to Him? Both before and after - some during the 8th millenium.

Where is Jesus return in your scenario?  Jesus sets foot on the Temple Mount - the Mount of the Assembly - Har Meggadon (Armageddon in Revelation).

 

Please understand that this is my current understanding.  Three years ago I didn't believe this way.  Between reading some of your stuff, som of Ron A's stuff, and some of Joel Richardson's stuff (as well as a better understanding of scriptures like Jer. 30)  The above is where I am now.  I am by no means locked into this opinion; but it makes sense to me at this point in time.

Really Rachel; when I look at the "big picture", I don't see where our viewpoints differ by that much; but maybe I don't fully grasp your scenario, either.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I don't understand this scenario.  So - you believe that Israel (the earthly nation of those claiming to be "Jews")  will:

return to "the land" --  be "established" in "the land"  --  be punished  --  then turn to Jesus Christ for redemption,

all BEFORE Jesus returns in glory. Yes (for the most part).  Israel has already returned to the land - mostly secular but many religious Jews.  God will use the surrounding nations to "punish" them for their historic unbelief.  But - as in the past - those nations go too far.  And - as in the past - Israel will call out to God to save them; and He will by destroying the surrounding Muslim nations (at least destroying their military and political power structures).  It is possible that many currently secular Jews will turn to Christ in this period; but many secular Gentiles (including Muslims) will become "spiritual Jews" at this time  When God pours out His spirit on all mankind, it will have a powerful effect.  Then, when Jesus returns, many Jews will look upon Him whom they have pierced and repent deeply (mourn) when they realize that Jesus the Conquering King is the one and same guy who was the suffering Messiah whom they crucified.

Is that right?  Or does Jesus return BEFORE Jews (worldwide) turn to Him? Both before and after - some during the 8th millenium.

Where is Jesus return in your scenario?  Jesus sets foot on the Temple Mount - the Mount of the Assembly - Har Meggadon (Armageddon in Revelation).

Joe,

I thought the Spirit was poured out on the Pentecost which followed Jesus death, resurrection, ascension, and glorification to become High Priest.  

Jesus said,  "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (Act 1:5 NKJ)

Acts 2:4  "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. "

After this, people who were baptized immediately received the infilling of the Spirit. 

Peter said, 

Acts 2:14 "Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."  (NIV)

Did Peter get it wrong?   Was the outpouring of the Spirit just limited to the early followers of Christ. 

OR was this the "early rain" - poured out upon the whole earth - to be followed by the "latter rain", also poured out on the whole earth just before Christ returns in glory? 

James 5:7 "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain."(NKJ)

We in the West, think of the "latter rain" coming a few weeks before the Fall harvest.   But in Ancient Israel, the "latter rain" or "harvest rain" usually came between Purim and Passover- in late Winter/early Spring. 

IF - as Peter said - the Spirit was poured upon all mankind (and has been continually poured since that Pentecost) , it would seem logical that open hearts would be drawn to Christ.  Jesus said, "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet have believe." 

It seems possible that Jesus would accept those (Jews who do not believe until Jesus returns in glory)  - who like Thomas - can't believe until they see it with their eyes.  I'm not the judge of how much "evidence" was rejected or ignored by specific individuals.  

Unlike you Joe, I do not believe this will take place until the 8th millennium.  I believe this earth will be consumed in fire at the SC, and will remain "uninhabited" - "without form and void" (Jeremiah 4:23)  during the 7th millennium. 

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

OR was this the "early rain" - poured out upon the whole earth - to be followed by the "latter rain", also poured out on the whole earth just before Christ returns in glory? 

James 5:7 "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain."(NKJ)

This is my current opinion.  As I've said before, I don't think any of us know how prophecy will be fulfilled until it is fulfilling.  We may know the big picture (like Jesus is coming again); but we don't know the details.  Unfortunately, the devil is in the details (literally). So we must watch.  We must keep our eyes and minds open to more than one possible scenario, otherwise we may be deceived by apparent fulfillment of our "pet" scenario, or miss the real deal because of how much we love our pet scenario.  I could never say you guys are dead wrong; you ask good questions that I can't answer with any certainty; and you aren't giving me any reason to change or materially alter my current opinion.  But I also do not dismiss yours.  I will be filing them away as viable alternative scenarios.