The 144,000

[debbym]

Everyone is God's by creation.  not everyone of God's  children are willing to be filled with faith and love to God.  Every being and every thing in the universe came from God.  He is deeply personally involved in every one in His creation.  God does accept the decision of His creatures every one.

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/10/2017 at 10:41 AM, JoeMo said:

Ummm ...

How about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D by Rome, the decimation of Israel by Islam in the 7th though 10th centuries, the persecution of Jews by the Crusaders, the persecution on Jews throughout Europe and Russia for the past 1,000 years, the mass murder of 6 Million Jews by Nazi Germany as most Christian denominations stood idly by, the continued call by so-called "Christians" for Israel to give the land that God gave Israel back to the Palestinians, the mass hatred of Israel by most members of the United Nations, for a start.

Let's get the facts straight, the destroying of Israel in A.D. 70 was prophesied by ELOHIYM for her sins as I stated! 

YAHSHUA turned and said to them, ‘Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for ME; weep for yourselves and for your children.’ ” Luke 23:28

History backs up the Bible and it shows fact as well about Israel marrying other ethnic groups that Rome moved into Judea later changed to Palestine. We never talk about Esther who married a Persian King; these people were the first Aryan people that took over Shem’s children land and people. Gen 9:27

Iran is the ancient name of Persia, and it is derived from the root "Arya" or Aryan, the Indo-European branch of peoples who settled in that land. The Aryans of ancient Iran were Mazdayasni Zarathushtris, i.e. Worshippers of Ahura Mazda (the name of God in Avestan) as revealed by the ancient prophet Zarathushtra, thousands of years before Christ.

However, all the ancient Zoroastrian scriptures speak of an earlier homeland from where our people came, the lost "Airyane Vaejahi" or seed-land of the Aryans. From this homeland, the Indo- Europeans or Aryans moved to upper India, Iran, Russia and the nations of Europe such as Greece, Italy, Germany, France, Scandinavia, England, Scotland and Ireland. History of the Ancient Aryans: Outlined in Zoroastrian scriptures

I would like to provide history once again to prove that Israel were intermarrying the Persians, Greece, Rome and even more during the time of Paul all the way to mainland Europe. Things changed after AD 70 even more so after the final revolt of AD 123–125 rebellions; yes this time these Judeans were sold as slaves again not chattel slaves like the Afrikan people

After the Babylonian conquest and during the period of Achaemenid rule, notable drops in the population of Jerusalem, the Sphephelah and the Negev region occurred, while continuity is maintained in the northern Judean and Benjamin areas. Along the coastal region the Phoenician presence expanded, while the Cisjordan underwent demographic change with the inflow of Moabite and Ammonite refugees, while the southern part of Judea underwent substantive change with the settlement of Edomites.The exilic returnees resettled, perhaps with a heightened sense of their ethnic identity. Katherine ER. Southward, Ethnicity and the Mixed Marriage Crisis in Ezra 9-10: An Anthropological Approach, Oxford University Press 2012 pp.103-203, esp.p.193

Sepphoris was a fortress town, Jerusalem contained the Antonia fortress, and Sebaste, in Samaria, was a Roman city, complete with a temple to Augustus (Schürer: II.162-63). The populations of these cities was generally mixed, with those of Israelite descent cheek by jowl with Greeks, Syrians, and Romans. The general language would have been Greek; Latin would not have been a common language, especially between various groups. Here dwelt the upper classes; the rulers and their families, the administrators responsible for tax collection, the garrisons of soldiers (who were mostly non-Palestinian Syrians), and, in Jerusalem, the priestly families who controlled the temple. These groups all intermingled, intermarried, and formed shifting alliances that often depended on expediency. Romans, Greeks, and Jews: The World of Jesus and the Disciples by Sidnie White Crawford University of Nebraska-Lincoln

Indeed, many must have reacted to the catastrophe with despair and total abandonment of Judaism. Apostates from Judaism (aside from converts to Christianity) received little notice in antiquity from either Jewish or non-Jewish writers, but ambitious individuals are known to have turned pagan before the war, and it stands to reason that many more did so after its disastrous conclusion. It is impossible to determine the number who joined the budding Christian movement and the number who disappeared into the polytheist majority. Robert Goldenberg (2008) The destruction of the Jerusalem Temple: its meaning and its consequences. In: The Cambridge History of Judaism Volume 4. Editor: S. T. Katz. p.162

Israel changed from the Babylonian Empire to the Persian Empire; however there were a faithful few who kept the faith. These are the ones who was willing to return first with Ezra and then more with Nehemiah. Yet, mixing have always been a part of Israel’s down fall!

Then the chiefs of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, and everyone whose mind ELOHIYM had awakened, rose up to go up to build the house of YAHWEH, which is in Jerusalem. Ezra 1:5 Hebrew Restore Version

And there was a great outcry of the people and their wives against their brothers, the Yehuḏim. Neh 5:1 Scripture 98+

The word wives are use but it should be adulteress instead. Adulteress, each, every, female, many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English. Strong Hebrew Dictionary

Finally, in Nehemiah it states that the people were all called Israel.

Who came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua, Nehemiah, Azariah, Raamiah, Nahamani, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispereth, Bigvai, Nehum, and Baanah. The number, I say, of the men of the people of Israel was this: Neh 7:7 

Conclusion: The rise of the Arabs

In the two thousand years after most of the Jewish population was killed off by the Romans or forced to leave, Arabic-speaking Muslims became the dominant ethnic group. According to records of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled Palestine for several centuries, in the year 1900, the population of Palestine was 600,000, of which 94% were Arabs. Historyguy.com:

From the rise of what today is call the Christian (I know this will a shock but none of the Apostles called themselves Christians) movement by Constantine and the Islamic Movement it was a constant battle over the land. Yes there were people who held up the false Judaic religion; these people by this time had become more Westerners yet even then they did not call themselves Jews! It is the Ashkenazi’s or the Zionist in Europe that accepted the name.

Its modern connotation points to someone who follows and adheres to a faith similar to that of the Pharisees of Judah, but is not of the tribe and stock of Judah. In other words, Jews are people from nations other than the 12 Hebrew tribes who practice a religion known as Judaism/Pharisaism, the doctrine of the Pharisees.

It is much like those who believe in Christ and are called Christians, in honor of the One whom they follow, and their religion is known as Christianity, the doctrine of Christ. If one were to say that all Christians are Judahites because Christ was of the tribe of Judah, it would be a fallacy. In much the same way, Jews are not Judahites (or Judeans).

In fact, the religion that is known as Judaism is actually Pharisaism. Judaism – as it pertains to Pharisaism – is a misnomer, since it is neither the doctrine of Judah nor the doctrine that Christ practiced.

It is the doctrine of the Pharisees of old, an evil doctrine they brought back from their Babylonian captivity. It does not follow the truth of the Bible, neither of the Old Testament nor of the New. Its central tenets are found in a book called the Talmud (the real Satanic Verses), a book full of worldly traditions, lies, and superstitions.

“The Babylonian Talmud is based on the mystical religious practices of the Babylonians which were assimilated by the Judahites Rabbis during their Babylonian captivity around 600 B.C. The Rabbis then used these occult traditions in place of the word of God,” wrote Edward Hendrie in Solving the Mystery of Babylon the Great.

“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44 Biblicism Institute

Blessings!

[Ron Amnsn]

On 8/9/2017 at 1:12 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

And "only Israel will be saved". 

Rachel, I'm looking for where this is taught in the Bible.  I do believe that Gentile followers of Jesus are grafted in to the olive tree of Romans 11 (which represents literal Israel).  So using that metaphor one could deduce that only Israel will be saved.  However that metaphor becomes a little problematic when we consider folks like Adam, Eve, Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Seth and Abraham who lived before there was an Israel to be attached to.  Is there a Bible passage that directly teaches that "only Israel will be saved"?

[Ron Amnsn]

On 8/8/2017 at 9:50 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Ron: Just like YAHWEH took Sodom, Gomorrah and the other five cities around out! These people all were destroyed with Everlasting Fire, they were judge! They will not burn again because they are non existing! The Israelites were given the truth, also their elders, priest, Moses, Joshua all saw and ate with YAHSHUA! 430 years were given to the rest of Canaan and Israel was suppose to destroyed them they didn't. The will be resurrected to burn. Moses was given a book of blessings and curses and YAHWEH clearly stated what would happen to them because of what they knew. You nor I am ELOHIYM and HIS Word does not come back to HIM void! I have given clearly what the Bible said and they sealed the curse themselves when they themselves said: "Let HIS BLOOD be on us and our children." They are gone, you cannot find any traces of the Hebrew, they only will take if you have ancestry from the Middle East. They cannot provide Hebrew from Eber as they can with other DNA. The Bible does not lie!

Sodom and Gomorrah had not entered into the covenant at Sinai as the Israelites did, so I don't think it is valid to use the destruction of non-covenant cities to hypothesize about the fate of God's covenant people.

Where does the Bible teach that there was a 430 year deadline for the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites?  We find in Scripture that God actually insisted that the Gibeonites not be destroyed due to the treaty that Joshua had been tricked into making with the Gibeonites.  Since those Gibeonites were a subset of the Canaanites, it seems it would thereafter have been impossible for the Israelites to subsequently destroy all the Canaanites.  Granted, God did initially instruct the Israelites to drive out and destroy the Canaanites, and if the Israelites didn't do that there would be consequences.  God stated that the consequence would be that Canaanites would be snare and stumbling block to the Israelites.  It seems that some unauthorized person has added to God's Word in order to declare a 430 deadline and has also added to God's Word additional consequences so that it can be surmised that Israel was rejected for not meeting that non-Biblical 430-year deadline.

The book of the blessings and curses that was given to Moses does include many consequences for the Israelites who did not live according to the covenant.  However, none of those consequences or curses specified anything that could result in the final rejection of the nation of the Israelites by God.  The consequences you want to assign to the Israelites are not found in the Bible, and there are many Bible passages that teach the opposite, including Romans 9:1-5.

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/10/2017 at 10:41 AM, JoeMo said:

Ummm ...

How about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D by Rome, the decimation of Israel by Islam in the 7th though 10th centuries, the persecution of Jews by the Crusaders, the persecution on Jews throughout Europe and Russia for the past 1,000 years, the mass murder of 6 Million Jews by Nazi Germany as most Christian denominations stood idly by, the continued call by so-called "Christians" for Israel to give the land that God gave Israel back to the Palestinians, the mass hatred of Israel by most members of the United Nations, for a start.

Read some History Book instead of pro Israel. Gibbon: The Rise and Fall of Rome is where you need to start. You are so bias and that is why it is hard to provide you with evidence. I tell the same thing to Afrikan Americans who can not realize that Europeans in the North known as the abolitionist more so then Lincoln that provided the movement of freeing the slaves. Europeans during the Civil Rights Movement gave up their lives for me to be able to speak out for my rights. Blacks are guilty as well claiming false tales of us in Europe-nonsense. I do not agree with my anthropologist that claim every one came from Afrika. Most of Eden is in the Mediterranean Sea, but the strip that survived was Canaan, Palestine to Iraqi or the river Euphrates. Read you Bible and see what Israel was suppose to own but never did! You would be surprise also read about this little strip of land that has everything like a continent. Read about all the wars that has been fought over this strip of land. I become upset with all who try to push false history into the mix. The Bible is a historical, prophetic, faith, legal Book and there is none like it. I am not putting down anyone but only providing what the Bible says and history backs it up. The Canaanites were not slaves nor does the Bible claim anyone as slaves but servants. The Canaanites were servant twice time to his brothers and only one time to his uncle. But no one takes the time to read it correctly that's what I want all of us to do. Like Nimrod only had Babylon, he did not he had an Empire. Matter of fact the only world Empire! Ok he was Back it makes no different if he was white, yellow or red; he still rule all of the people! The lie that YAHWEH knock down some tower, that never happen they left off finish building the city! We forget that these people still had longevity because of Adam and his wife eating from the Tree of Life. All of them were giants and they did not have sex with angels, boy is that a ridiculous concept. They were using 100% of their brains, hello and even YAHWEH after the flood stated: Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Here another falsehood that the angels at the Gate of the Garden of Eden were holding swords-no a swirling sword, that even EGW identified is the SHEKINAH GLORY of ELOHIYM! I could go on and on but I want us all to stop accepting what you was told and research things out for yourself. No matter what you feel or believe the Hebrews people brought the curse on themselves as we in the last days will bring it on us if we don't obey! I want to be saved: do you? 

Today thanks to Trump's bigotry racial upheaval on YAHWEH'S Day in VA! If we as SDA don't wake up and realize that the Hebrews are no different then us today. He called people of all nations, tongues and people to obey and live. Can you tell me what can we exchange for our soul? Can we realize what happen to the Hebrews, Canaanites, the antediluvian folks, Nimrod on and on  can be a learning experience so we don't make the same mistakes. I am so tired of this world and sin you just don't know! I cried over the baby in London who parents wanted him to come here to be operated on and the courts wouldn't let them and he died. I wept for the policemen in Dallas Texas; who ware helping Black lives like me in that rally and a Black man shot them down! I thank the Govenor  and both White and Black people of SC who stood up when those people was killed by the young White man and took the Confederate Flag down! There is not going to be a White, Black, Indian, Chinese etc. Heaven, just Heaven! I want to go there and be with all of my people that Adam and Eve seed produce- that means you and me we are all related and we all have sinned. Now it is time to stop sinning, get ready to meet YAHSHUA!

Blessings!

[Ron Amnsn]

On 8/9/2017 at 7:16 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Yet, here is this race card about when it comes to Israel. Israel were a mixture of people, especially with the descendant of Ham. Race has nothing to do with anything in the Bible ethnicity did but not to put one over the other!

You are correct.  God's covenant with Israel was not based on race.  God's covenants with Abraham and the Israelites were based on inheritance. 

Inheritance is not considered to be of much importance today.  However, in the Bible inheritance is very important. 

Modern Christians have a hard time wrapping their minds around any Biblical concept that is not part of modern culture, so we tend to ignore what the Bible teaches about inheritance.  Those chapters in the Bible that contain various genealogies were included in the Bible because inheritance is important to God, even today.  For example the promise of the rainbow is still valid for us today because we all inherited that promise from our forefather Noah. There were no conditions that could cause Noah's descendants to lose the inheritance of the rainbow promise or the covenant for day and night that were given to Noah. 

We have also inherited important things from Adam and Eve and from others in the Bible.  Those who have been purchased by Jesus have inherited some very important things from Abraham and from the Israelites, however most modern Christians don't seem to be interested at all in what they have inherited.  In that way, we are much like Esau who did not value his inherited birthright.

[Ron Amnsn]

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

Let's get the facts straight, the destroying of Israel in A.D. 70 was prophesied by ELOHIYM for her sins as I stated!

I'm in favor of getting the facts straight. 

It was Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 A.D.  However, most of the Israelites had never returned to the land of Israel after the exile so they were not destroyed in 70 A.D.  The book of Esther mentions the Jews who remained in the 127 provinces of Persia after the few had returned to Jerusalem with Ezra and Nehemiah. 

The straight fact is that those Israelites who were spread throughout the Roman and Persian empires in 70 A.D. were not destroyed.  Apparently your interpretation of the prophecies is not correct.

In the writings of the prophets God made promises to the remnant of the Israelites who remained in exile.  The prophets tell how the remnant of the Israelites will be restored.  In Acts 3:19-21 Peter specifically refers to those prophecies stating that those prophecies will be fulfilled.

Quote

19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

 

[Ron Amnsn]

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Gibbon: The Rise and Fall of Rome is where you need to start.

Yes, Gibbon is a great resource.  Gibbon documents that the followers of Jesus at the time of the Apostles continued to live according to God's Law of Moses.  Then Gibbon documents (although unintentionally) the great apostasy of lawlessness or "falling away" foretold by Jesus and the apostle Paul.  After the second Jewish revolt of 136 A.D., under the leadership of Gentiles the Christian church abandoned the teachings of the apostles and changed so much that the people who still lived as Jesus and the apostles had lived were no longer accepted as Christians.  Most Christians are unaware of the very significant changes that Gibbon documents. See http://fogwhistle.ca/acts/expelled.html

[Ron Amnsn]

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Jews are people from nations other than the 12 Hebrew tribes who practice a religion known as Judaism/Pharisaism, the doctrine of the Pharisees.

Although modern rabbinic Judaism sometimes claims to be descended from the Pharisees, there is little historical evidence to substantiate that claim.  Just as Christianity has drifted away from the religion taught and practiced by Jesus and the original apostles, Judaism has also drifted away from what was practiced by the Pharisees.

In the New Testament the Pharisees were criticized for being hypocrites and for adding traditions that set aside God's Law of Moses.  Considering that modern Christians have added even more traditions and have set aside even more of God's Law of Moses than the Pharisees had set aside, it doesn't seem that Christians have much room to criticize the Pharisees.  Paul himself testified near the end of his ministry, "I am a Pharisee" (Acts 23:6) so the religion of the Pharisees couldn't have been as evil as some people try to make it out to be.

[LifeHiscost]

…6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 7But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8Produce fruit worthy of repentance.…Matthew 3

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.John 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/12/2017 at 5:34 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

Rachel, I'm looking for where this is taught in the Bible.  I do believe that Gentile followers of Jesus are grafted in to the olive tree of Romans 11 (which represents literal Israel).  So using that metaphor one could deduce that only Israel will be saved.  However that metaphor becomes a little problematic when we consider folks like Adam, Eve, Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Seth and Abraham who lived before there was an Israel to be attached to.  Is there a Bible passage that directly teaches that "only Israel will be saved"?

Paul said, "so all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).   Those who refuse to believe are "cut off" from Israel.  And those who believe in Jesus are grafted in to Israel.  What is left - is redeemed Israel.  No one else will be saved.  During the OT , those who believed in the LORD and served the LORD were grafted in to the pre-incarnate Son of God - by the sign of circumcision, or before Abraham - by the sign of the lamb sacrifice in the name of the LORD.   

No matter when they lived - they are still grafted in to the Son of God.  He is the REAL "Israel".

Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father, but by Me."  Did He mean only folks living from that point onward?  Or did His statement include those who lived before He died? 

"Israel" means prevails with God.  The only ONE who truly prevailed - was Jesus.   He is the REAL Israel.  Everyone who is grafted into HIM, will be saved, regardless of when they lived.  Even those born DNA descendants of Jacob, and physically circumcised the 8th day,  still must be "grafted in" to Christ.  They must be circumcised in heart - by Christ.

Yeshua is the Lamb slain for ALL humanity not just for descendants of Jacob + GIs (those grafted in). 

God said to Pharoah, "Israel IS my firstborn."  Who was God's firstborn.  Answer:  Jesus.

Abraham "looked for a city" long before Isaac and Jacob were born.   There are 12 gates into that City.  Each one has the name of one tribe of Israel on it.   The foundations are named for the 12 Apostles.   Does that mean Noah has no home there.  No!

Concerning "the nations" - invited to join in the Feast of Tabernacles (Zechariah cpt 14) AFTER all the events of Zechariah cpt 13 (The Second Coming):

My personal belief is that this Feast will take place AFTER the 7th millennium. 

The "nations" invited to join in the Feast, will be those resurrected at the 8th millennium.  They are "the rest of the dead" who do "not live again" until the 1000 years have passed.  Each of those people will have to choose - to serve Christ and be grafted into Israel redeemed - or to fight against Him as part of Gog/Magog. 

I do NOT  BELIEVE "the rest" will be resurrected simply to be judged and executed.  I believe "the rest" will be those who could not CHOOSE during their lifetimes (when ever they lived) ,  for whatever reason - they lived and died as infants or children, OR they were mentally disabled, OR they lived in a place without enough information about God to enable a choice. 

I do NOT believe the LORD will leave these people behind.  He will give them the information and the opportunity to CHOOSE Him.  And when they do CHOOSE Him, they also will be "grafted in" to Israel - to Jesus. 

Hope I have explained my beliefs clear enough.  Rachel

 

[Ron Amnsn]

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Paul's testimony, and it was that; a testimony, was not about his race or nationality. More context than just two words lifted out, thereof, would have been better:

Yes, I was talking about the religion of the Pharisees rather than race or nationality. 

The larger context is always good.  In this case I don't think the larger context modifies in any significant way Paul's claim to be a Pharisee. 

Some of the Pharisees present declared strongly about Paul, "We find nothing wrong in this man."  Since it is quite doubtful that they would have declared the same about any modern Christian evangelist, maybe we should take note of how far  Christian teachings have drifted away from the gospel that Paul lived and taught.

[JoeMo]

On 8/12/2017 at 4:16 PM, stinsonmarri said:

(I know this will a shock but none of the Apostles called themselves Christians)

Maybe they didn't explicitly call themselves Christians, but their followers were labelled Christian in the apostolic era; so I infer that whether or not they called themselves Christian, at least Paul and Peter identified with Christians.

" So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch." (Acts 11:26)

"However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name." (1 Peter 4:16)

[Ron Amnsn]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Hope I have explained my beliefs clear enough.

Your beliefs are quite clear, but it seems you have extrapolated well beyond what is actually stated in Scripture. It still isn't clear that the Bible teaches that only Israel will be saved.  There is a significant difference between what Paul said, "all Israel will be saved" and what you said, "only Israel will be saved."

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Those who refuse to believe are "cut off" from Israel.  And those who believe in Jesus are grafted in to Israel.  What is left - is redeemed Israel.  No one else will be saved.  During the OT , those who believed in the LORD and served the LORD were grafted in to the pre-incarnate Son of God - by the sign of circumcision, or before Abraham - by the sign of the lamb sacrifice in the name of the LORD.   

No matter when they lived - they are still grafted in to the Son of God.  He is the REAL "Israel".

There may be a problem with this. 

If the olive tree in Paul's metaphor in Romans 11 represents Jesus, then all the Israelites would have been originally connected to Jesus. Paul says, of the cut off branches, "how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."  Jesus would be the olive tree the Israelites originally grew on.  Were all the Old Testament Israelites natural branches of Jesus?  If so, then all the Israelites who never heard of Jesus since New Testament times (because they were still scattered throughout the Roman empire and old Persian empire) would have already been attached to Jesus "their own olive tree".  Their belief in the prophesied Messiah, even though they didn't know his name, would be belief in "their own olive tree" which they were already attached to. So by simply living in the Old Testament manner that Jesus lived-- observing God's Law of Moses, and waiting for Messiah, all the Israelites would already be saved.  And the Jews and Israelites of any era would never have been "cut off" for rejecting the inaccurate Christian portrayal of "Jesus" as the profane, lawless man that annulled God's Word, hates Jews, and approves of the way Christians have acted since the Dark Ages. 

Also, if Jesus is the REAL "Israel", then at Mt. Sinai, who did God make the covenant with, a fake Israel?  If God made the covenant at Sinai with the REAL Israel (Jesus), then that covenant was never broken because the real Israel (Jesus) never sinned, the real Israel (Jesus) never went into exile, the real Israel never rejected Jesus, and the real Israel was never rejected by God.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Also, if Jesus is the REAL "Israel", then at Mt. Sinai, who did God make the covenant with, a fake Israel?  If God made the covenant at Sinai with the REAL Israel (Jesus), then that covenant was never broken because the real Israel (Jesus) never sinned, the real Israel (Jesus) never went into exile, the real Israel never rejected Jesus, and the real Israel was never rejected by God.

When descendants of Jacob + a mixed multitude, entered into a covenant with Yahweh (mediated by the pre-incarnate Son of God) they BECAME "Israel" - because they were, on that day, grafted into THE "Israel" (the pre-incarnate Yeshua).  

They may have been Children of Israel - the man, but when they entered into covenant at Mount Sinai, they BECAME the nation "Israel".   Isn't there a verse that says a nation was "born in a day".

Many years later, the LORD gave "Israel" a bill of divorce.  He did not divorce Judah (the remnant of Israel).  His marriage to Judah lasted until His death.  A wife is freed by the death of her "husband."  That is the Law.   His death ended THAT first  marriage covenant.  Believers are now "betrothed" to the RISEN Yeshua by a NEW marriage Covenant.  

Those Jews you mentioned who are living up to the "light" they have, following the Law of the Sinai Covenant to their understanding - they can certainly be raised at the 8th millennium, as part of "the rest".  They are living in ignorance - of Yeshua.  Or - the LORD may grant them immortality at His return, IF they have served the LORD with love in their hearts and loved their fellow man - including Gentiles.     

 

[Ron Amnsn]

8 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Again; it depends upon how one chooses to look at something. To me, in all my experience would say the opposite to this. It's not as "doubtful" as what you claim.

While a Christian evangelist who makes no pretense to follow Judaism will often be accepted by Orthodox Jews as a respectable Christian, the stakes are much, much higher if a Christian makes any claim of being Jewish or Orthodox.  If a Christian evangelist claimed before the Sanhedrin to be a Pharisee while on trial for defiling the Temple, as Paul did,  it would probably be laughter, rather than a dispute that would break out in the Sanhedrin.

It seems Christian evangelists usually find fault with the Pharisees.  And most evangelists teach that the Temple (where Paul was mobbed while preparing to offer an animal sacrifice) had already been obsolete for decades.  Such teachings wouldn't have found favor with the Pharisees.  Do you know any Christian evangelists who wear tassels on their clothes as Paul and the Pharisees did?

Have you ever heard a Christian evangelist testify, "I am a Pharisee" as Paul did, or testify "I believe everything that agrees with the Law and is written in the Prophets" as Paul did?

[JoeMo]

Jesus never railed against the Pharisees for being legalistic or being "Torah Thumpers"; He railed against them for being hypocrites (See Matt. 6 and 23).  Outside of the disciples, it seems like Jesus hung out a lot with Pharisees. I would not be surprised if Jesus would have identified with the Pharisees in principle if He wasn't the Messiah. 

[stinsonmarri]

Ron: The Nazi's, KKK, White Separatist and Nationalist movements all show up in Charlottesville, Virginia this past weekend. I am tired so tired of hatred. I do not want you to think I hate so THE HOLY SPIRIT has lead me to let it go. We are living in the last days as YAHSHUA declared in Matt Chapter 24. We both have our view and I feel we will never change it. I saw that young lady get plow down due to terrorist acts. Trump is here to wake people up in repairing the breach. I want hatred to stop; I cried for that young lady my heart is hurting deeply. I want all to pray for what happening now here in this country. Soon oh so soon we all will know who the 144,000 truly is. I pray that we all realize what  is happening now and we need to study the Bible like never before. Do you have extra oil, are you ready for THE BRIDEGROOM when you hear the call? Sin must be removed from all of us and it will be those five wise virgin that are mentioned in Daniel 12:3 and Rev 14:4 that will finish this work. It is my prayer to you all that be one of the 144,000. Israel who have overcome in these last days who will at last finish the work and bring in the harvest of souls, the great multitude that no man could number!

Blessings to you all!

[Ron Amnsn]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Many years later, the LORD gave "Israel" a bill of divorce.

Was that bill of divorce something YHWH forced on the northern kingdom, or something that the northern kingdom requested/demanded?  Was it an actual document written in stone by God's finger, or was it something mentioned metaphorically? 

Did God really have two wives simultaneously -- the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah?  If so, he wouldn't even qualify to be an elder in a congregation according to the New Testament.

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

A wife is freed by the death of her "husband."  That is the Law.   His death ended THAT first  marriage covenant.

I suppose if someone views marriage as some sort of bondage, the wife would be "freed" from a resurrected husband. What if the wife doesn't want to be freed?  Does the Law say that a resurrected husband is required to abandon his wife, or to remarry her? 

Considering that the death of Messiah was planned from the foundation of the world, it seems that God would have mentioned that the original Sinai covenant was only going to last until Messiah died, instead of making it sound like that covenant was going to endure "throughout the generations" of the Israelites.  Do we serve a God whose word can be trusted, or is he a shady used-car salesman who deceives those who enter into covenants with him? 

Which part of the Sanctuary services or annual feasts illustrates the termination of the covenant when the lamb (or other sacrifices) representing Messiah died?

Are you sure that Jesus is exactly equivalent to the YHWH who entered into the covenant with Israel, so that the death of Jesus is the same as the death of YHWH (the metaphorical husband of the covenant)?

What other promises, covenants, and agreements did YHWH get out of when Jesus died?

[Ron Amnsn]

Believers are now "betrothed" to the RISEN Yeshua by a NEW marriage Covenant.

Where can we find the text of the betrothal agreement or the terms of the new marriage covenant?  What terms have believers agreed to?

Is there a hidden provision in the new covenant that says it will become invalid when the believer has died and is resurrected, so that Jesus is freed from the new covenant (according to your interpretation of the Law)?

If the original Sinai covenant ended when Messiah died, why does Hebrews 8:13 tell us that the covenant was still valid when Hebrews was written, which was several decades after Messiah was resurrected?

If the original Sinai covenant ended when Messiah died, why does Revelation 11:19 tell us that the ark of that covenant is seen in the Temple in heaven when the seventh trumpet sounds?

[8thdaypriest]

23 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

There may be a problem with this. 

If the olive tree in Paul's metaphor in Romans 11 represents Jesus, then all the Israelites would have been originally connected to Jesus. Paul says, of the cut off branches, "how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree."  Jesus would be the olive tree the Israelites originally grew on.  Were all the Old Testament Israelites natural branches of Jesus?  If so, then all the Israelites who never heard of Jesus since New Testament times (because they were still scattered throughout the Roman empire and old Persian empire) would have already been attached to Jesus "their own olive tree".  Their belief in the prophesied Messiah, even though they didn't know his name, would be belief in "their own olive tree" which they were already attached to. So by simply living in the Old Testament manner that Jesus lived-- observing God's Law of Moses, and waiting for Messiah, all the Israelites would already be saved.  And the Jews and Israelites of any era would never have been "cut off" for rejecting the inaccurate Christian portrayal of "Jesus" as the profane, lawless man that annulled God's Word, hates Jews, and approves of the way Christians have acted since the Dark Ages. 

Also, if Jesus is the REAL "Israel", then at Mt. Sinai, who did God make the covenant with, a fake Israel?  If God made the covenant at Sinai with the REAL Israel (Jesus), then that covenant was never broken because the real Israel (Jesus) never sinned, the real Israel (Jesus) never went into exile, the real Israel never rejected Jesus, and the real Israel was never rejected by God.

Paul says "the ROOT is holy and nourishes you" (Romans 11).  In the metaphor of Romans 11, the ROOT (I believe) represents the Son of God.  He nourished Noah and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and those of Israel who believed.  There were some who never drew nourishment from the ROOT.  These withered and died and were "unfruitful" and were broken off.   

The TREE represents (true) Israel - those drawing nourishment from Christ (the ROOT).  (Maybe the trunk of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.) 

Do I believe that Jews who do not believe in Jesus as "the Christ" are nourished by Christ?  That's what you seem to be asking. 

Does Jesus bless/nourish unbelievers or pre-believers?  Yes!  Of course!  The Spirit of the Father draws everyone.  Only those who resist and resist and resist, are finally left to their unbelief. 

If I didn't believe that God continues trying to reach folks who do not believe, I would have to stop praying for my younger sister.  So far, she is resisting. 

Most Jews worldwide actively resist the teaching that Jesus of Nazareth was/is "the Christ".  We should pray for them, and also try to share our understanding that mainline "Christianity" IS NOT the faith of the first Apostles.  

In my limited experience with Messianic Jews, they DO NOT WANT equal fellowship with  "Christians".  The members of the Messianic congregation I attended, treated me like a member of the mixed multitude, following them to the kingdom.  Definitely second class.  They see themselves as the rulers and teachers in the coming kingdom, and believe any Gentiles will play only secondary roles.  THAT I don't believe.   Hebrew Roots teachers - on the other hand - do not put believing Gentiles in a lesser light.  Everyone is equal before God.  Judgment is based upon faith and resulting works - not Hebrew descent. 

[Ron Amnsn]

17 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Why don't you just show us your "tassels" and we can then take it from there??

I don't have tassels on all my shirts, but there are tassels on the shirt I am wearing now.  I removed three sets of tassels from from old shirts I threw away today.

[8thdaypriest]

8 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Where can we find the text of the betrothal agreement or the terms of the new marriage covenant?  What terms have believers agreed to?

 

The 10 Commands.  Also:  "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." 

ONLY the priesthood has been "changed" (along with everything dependent upon the Aaronic priesthood).  

The priesthood was ORIGINALLY the right of the "firstborn".   That was "changed" at Mount Sinai after the Golden Calf rebellion - to the tribe of Levi and House of Aaron.

When the death of Christ wiped away the sin of Israel ( for those who repented) that sin of the Golden Calf rebellion was wiped away. 

God could then CHANGE the priesthood BACK to the original "firstborn". 

Jesus is "the firstborn - over all creation".  Hence He has been made "high priest". 

He is a "priest after the order of Melchizedek - who was a priest and a king on the earth.  If Jesus is a priest of this order, then He must be a priest and a king ON EARTH.  

Without the Aaronic priesthood, serving at a Jerusalem Temple, there is no place to TAKE a sacrifice - therefore the animal sacrifices become obsolete. 

[Ron Amnsn]

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I think your working definition of "Christian Evangelist" needs re-working.

What do I need to change?

[8thdaypriest]

17 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Where can we find the text of the betrothal agreement or the terms of the new marriage covenant?  What terms have believers agreed to?

Is there a hidden provision in the new covenant that says it will become invalid when the believer has died and is resurrected, so that Jesus is freed from the new covenant (according to your interpretation of the Law)?

 

Only the death of "the husband" frees his "wife" from their marriage covenant.

THE "husband" IS Jesus Christ, and His "betrothed" "wife" /"bride" is His congregation/church/NT spiritual Israel/New Jerusalem.

Besides we who believe "never die" in the eyes of God.