When will we walk on the ashes of the wicked?

[8thdaypriest]

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts. 4 "Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. 6 And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse."

When will this prophecy be fulfilled - that the redeemed will walk on the ashes of the wicked?   When exactly are the wicked burned to ashes? 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Was there an event - anciently - when the wicked were "burned to ashes" ? 

Maybe when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians?   Or maybe when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD?

Certainly - at the Second Coming judgment - when the earth is "burned up" - there would be "ashes", and then later after the redeemed return, they would walk on those ashes.

Also after Gog-Magog?   The wicked are consumed by fire from God.   But then their bodies/bones are later buried in a clean up.   So I don't know about "ashes" associated with that "fire".   That one seems more like when Nadab and Abihu were "consumed" and then carried out by their coats. 

I'm just asking if anyone can think of another "fire" event, when wicked are burned to "ashes" that the redeemed later walk on. 

[Kevin H]

Well there is Isaiah 33 which asks who can live with the eternal fire. The implication of the lost are consumed by this fire but the righteous live in it forever.

[8thdaypriest]

10 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Well there is Isaiah 33 which asks who can live with the eternal fire. The implication of the lost are consumed by this fire but the righteous live in it forever.

Yes.  But where are the "ashes" ?   Are you saying that "the lake of fire" - the "second death" - will leave the "ashes" behind as the remains of the wicked.   I think it possible that flesh and blood (mass) could become "ashes", rather than be vaporized somehow.  

[8thdaypriest]

When the Babylonians "burned" the city of Jerusalem, they must have left many dead, who were also reduced to ashes.   The Israelites who returned from Babylon walked on the streets.   But Malachi was not yet written, when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem, nor yet when the captives returned to the city.  Malachi puts this walking on ashes future from his day.  

The Romans destroyed Jerusalem and even leveled it.   Does that mean the modern day Jews who have returned to that City, are walking on the ashes of "the wicked"?   History tells us that most of the Jews were sold into slavery, after the 70AD destruction.   Of course there were mass graves of the defeated/executed Jews.   But I don't remember them being burned to ashes. 

It seems more likely the "fire" destruction event that burns "the wicked" to ashes will be the one that takes place at the Second Coming, when "the earth" and all the works thereof, will be "burned up". 

One reason I think this is significant, is because the righteous later walk on the ashes of that fire.   That means the redeemed will RETURN to THIS PLANET - rather than to a new and different one.   I have heard arguments that the "new heavens and a new earth" will be an entirely new planet - one never before inhabited by humans. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings “8thdaypriest”,

On 11/28/2017 at 6:31 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

When will this prophecy be fulfilled - that the redeemed will walk on the ashes of the wicked?   When exactly are the wicked burned to ashes? 

This will occur at the beginning of the 1000 years when Jesus arises as the Sun of Righteousness to rule the world. The judgement on the wicked will be part of the transition from the Kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God, and the end result is shown at the beginning of the 1000 years in Isaiah 2:1-4. Jesus and the faithful will overthrow the Kingdoms of men and judge those that do not submit.

There are a number of figures used to describe this process. There is the concept of calves threshing the wheat, and then the chaff is either blown away or burnt.

Joel 3:9–14 (AV): ⁹ Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: ¹⁰ Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. ¹¹ Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. ¹² Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. ¹³ Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. ¹⁴Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision (mg threshing): for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

There is the figure of the altar of burnt offering, and those who endure the fire of judgement will be saved, but the wicked will be consumed. The concept of burning and calves’ feet is combined in the vision of the cherubim and the symbolic Son of Man. Both of these visions speak of the judgement on the nations by Jesus and the faithful:

Ezekiel 1:7,13–14 (AV): ⁷ And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf’s foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. ¹³ As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. ¹⁴ And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

Revelation 1:13–15 (AV): ¹³ And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. ¹⁴ His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; ¹⁵ And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings “8thdaypriest”,

This will occur at the beginning of the 1000 years when Jesus arises as the Sun of Righteousness to rule the world. The judgement on the wicked will be part of the transition from the Kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God, and the end result is shown at the beginning of the 1000 years in Isaiah 2:1-4. Jesus and the faithful will overthrow the Kingdoms of men and judge those that do not submit.

Joel 3:9–14 (AV): ⁹ Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: ¹⁰ Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. ¹¹ Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. ¹² Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. ¹³ Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. ¹⁴Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision (mg threshing): for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

 

Here in the passage you quoted,  the LORD seems to be calling the "heathen" - NOT the faithful - to prepare for war.   If they "come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat" - they would be in "the land" and nearby to Jerusalem.  
Revelation 20:9-10 makes it very clear that the righteous won't do any fighting at all.  "Fire" will come down from God out of Heaven, and will consume the wicked. 

I know this happens at the Battle of Gog/Magog.   It is described in Ezekiel 38 and 39.  It is also described in Revelation Chapter 20.   The nations described in both prophecy passages, are (today) Muslim nations, with their Russian allies.   The LORD says that HE will bring these nations against Israel (Ezek 38:4, 16).   This is the LORD assuming responsibility for what HE allows Satan to do. 

In the Revelation account, the Battle is preceded by the 1000 year imprisonment of Satan, followed by his release (Rev Cpt 20). 

In the Ezekiel account, the Battle is preceded by the resurrection and return to the land of "the whole House of Israel" - with Israel and Judah reunited under "one king" (Ezek Cpt 36-37).  The LORD has made an everlasting covenant of peace with the reunited House of Israel.  

Question is:   Are there 2 Battles or 1 ??   Is there a Battle of Gog/Magog at the start of the 1000 years, and then another after the 1000 years? 

Consider the judgment of the beast, the false prophet, and Satan himself. 

The beast and the false prophet are cast into the "lake of fire" at the start of the 1000 years (Rev. 19:20), and Satan is cast in to that "fire" AFTER the 1000 years (Rev. 20:10). 

That makes it sound like there are TWO - very similar - judgment events, and both involve "fire". 

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Here in the passage you quoted,  the LORD seems to be calling the "heathen" - NOT the faithful - to prepare for war.   If they "come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat" - they would be in "the land" and nearby to Jerusalem.

Yes, this speaks concerning the nations preparing for war and my understanding this will be the Battle of Armageddon, and this will be centred in the Holy Land.

 

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Revelation 20:9-10 makes it very clear that the righteous won't do any fighting at all.  "Fire" will come down from God out of Heaven, and will consume the wicked. 

Revelation 9:7 specifically says that this occurs at the end of the 1000 years.

 

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In the Ezekiel account, the Battle is preceded by the resurrection and return to the land of "the whole House of Israel" - with Israel and Judah reunited under "one king" (Ezek Cpt 36-37).  The LORD has made an everlasting covenant of peace with the reunited House of Israel.

In contrast Ezekiel 38 is speaking concerning events before the 1000 years, but this does not fit SDA theology.

Please note that Malachi 4:3 uses the word trample, indicating that the faithful will be directly involved in the overthrow and subjugation of the wicked, while you partly change this by suggesting that the faithful may only tread on their ashes. The problem that you face in drawing attention to some of the detail of OT prophecy concerning the Kingdom, is that SDA theology suggests that many of these prophecies will NOT be fulfilled, because they were conditional upon the faithfulness of Israel. Where I consider this view is wrong, is that OT prophecy predicted that Israel would fail, and yet the prophecies would nevertheless be fulfilled. Isaiah’s commission in Isaiah 6:9-10 was more or less stating that Israel would fail. This failure is intertwined throughout his prophecy, and this reaches its climax in Isaiah 53. Jesus is the true Passover lamb.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings The Wanderer,

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

that does not sound right. You would have to give some references, specific ones to demonstrate what you are talking about. At the very least, this does not fairly represent "SDA" theology regarding prophecy

This may not be openly admitted, but from my experience it is the SDA position. “8thdaypriest” has given a reasonable assessment of Ezekiel 36-37, and I suggest that you couple this with the plain meaning of Ezekiel 38. Could you claim that the SDAs believe and teach a clear explanation of Ezekiel 36-38? Perhaps you have a clear understanding of these chapters. I have not encountered any clear explanation by a SDA.

 

Personal experience may not have much weight, but I will tell you a few details. In my youth I used to attend a public park in Sydney called the Domain, where there were public speakers representing various religions and a number of political persuasions. I spoke privately to a senior SDA on many aspects, but near the end I asked how he understood Zechariah 14. His answer was that he did not know why God wrote that chapter. At least he did not use the position that it was tentative if the Jews accepted Jesus. When I was 23 years old, I had a visit from a SDA pastor and his assistant to my home, and we discussed prophecy. He clearly stated that many of the prophecies would not be fulfilled, and were only to have been valid if the Jews had accepted Jesus.

 

There is a thread on another forum where a prominent SDA is advocating this concept, or this how I interpret what he is saying:

"The prophecies that pertain to a successful future for literal Israel were set back when the 490 year timeline given to Israel in Dan 9 -- ended (3.5 years after the resurrection of Christ at the stoning of Stephen). At that point the Gospel to the gentiles and the persecuted church model took over from the nation-church model of the OT.

Romans 9 says that the prophecies about a successful Israel do not fail simply because literal Israel fails - because they are to be fulfilled in the form of the saints - and hence in the New Earth since that is the only point after the 2nd coming even when saints are actually on the earth."

 

The above may be a bit obscure, but my impression is that he does not consider that the prophecies will be literally fulfilled, especially when it talks about literal Israel. Your own SDA experience may help to clarify this, and help to explain what he is saying.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Hmmm...the "righteous" live in fire forever?? Where does the Bible tell us that?

Isaiah 33:14-15  "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?  Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?  He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly. . . . He will dwell on high; His place of defense will be the fortress of the rocks;  Bread will be given him, His water will be sure." 

God Himself is the "fire".   His glory consumes the wicked.   The redeemed will live in this glory forever.  

Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire."

[8thdaypriest]

I have not been SDA since 1998.   I do personally hold many beliefs in common with SDAs, but I have also come to hold several beliefs which do not harmonize with SDA teachings. 

I believe the redeemed - grafted into Christ Jesus - constitute the "Israel" for whom eternal blessings are prophesied.   I believe the redeemed in Christ are added to "Israel" and those who reject Jesus as LORD are "cut off" from Israel.   That is a little different from simply replacing physical DNA Israel with "spiritual" Israel.  Israel swells and contracts because citizens are added to and lost from her numbers. 

The ceremonies commanded for the Ancient Tabernacle and it's priests were acted prophecy.   Aaron and his sons and all future priests were commanded to spend 7 days within the Tabernacle as part of their consecration to the priesthood.   I believe this prophecy will be fulfilled, when the redeemed - rescued off this earth - spend the 7th millennium in "the Father's House" in preparation for their role as "priests of God and of Christ".   The ancient priests of the Tabernacle did not begin to serve until "the 8th day", and the future priests will not begin their ministry until the 8th millennium.  It is interesting that Nadab and Abihu died on the very day - the 8th day - that they began their priesthood.   And Satan also, will be cast into the Lake of Fire at the 8th millennium, during the Gog/Magog Battle. 

They will spend at least half, if not all of the 1000 years (during which Satan is imprisoned in "the pit") in the "Father's House", preparing to serve as "priests of God and of Christ" .    They will return to "the land" most probably at the half way point of the 1000 years .  That will be the Jubilee, when every man returns to his inheritance.  They will then begin to repair, rebuild, restore, plant vineyards, build houses, etc. etc.  At the start of the 8th millennium (the 8th day) there will be a great resurrection, the greatest ever seen, of those who lived and died in ignorance.   The redeemed priests will then serve to govern and teach these people.  This is where Zechariah 14 fits in, and Isaiah 2:1-4, and Micah 4:1-4, etc.   The "nations" are invited to come up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.   The "family of Egypt" (a name for the mixed multitude in the first Exodus) refuses to come up.  They are shunning the LORD, and resisting His Spirit (symbolized by "no rain").   The rebellious gather together under a leader "Gog of Magog".   They prepare for war against Christ as King.   And we know how that battle ends. 

This is my belief concerning the Gog/Magog Battle which will take place AFTER the 1000 years. 

I do believe that a Gog/Magog TYPE Battle  will take place in the last days - BEFORE the return of Christ in glory.   Satan will be the director of that battle.  He will orchestrate this battle.  He has been planning it for many, many years.   This battle will fulfill the prophecies.  This battle will be a masterpiece of deception - to bring the nations (not just Israel) to serve him. 

First: "Israel" had to "return to the land".   (The Jews who "returned" did NOT believe in Christ Jesus, and a goodly percentage did not even believe in God.  They were Communists from Russia. )  

Second:  The "nations" around Israel had to be stirred to great hatred.   He has certainly accomplished this. 

Third:   Russia had to become an ally.   Check.  He has accomplished this. 

Fourth:  Something will spark an all out war. 

Fifth:   Fire will come down from "Heaven" to destroy the attackers.  The "Lord" will save Israel. 

Sixth:  This "Lord" will speak through an "image" set up in the Temple.   He will demand worship (under the guise of world peace) from Israel, and then from "every nation kindred tongue and people".  Jerusalem will be given to "the nations". 

Seventh:  He will decree death to those who refuse this worship.   His BEAST organization will persecute the people of God, (the two witnesses) who are trying to warn the people that this is NOT of God. 

Eighth:  Three and a half days after He executes/kills the last witnesses for the truth,  Jesus Christ will return in glory, to resurrect and rescue his saints, and to execute judgment upon the (knowingly) wicked, and those who persecuted His saints. 

There.  That is my belief concerning the Gog/Magog type battle, which will take place BEFORE the return of Christ in glory.  Many of the deceived will call it The Battle of Armageddon.  It will be a battle for "the Mount".  True.   But the true Armageddon will be a battle between Satan's forces and Christ's forces for dominion over this earth. 

I hope I explained that well enough.  

I wrote a book about it.  It is available to read on the prophecyviewpoint.com website.  The book is titled "The 8th Day". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

I don't know of another denomination which teaches the desolation of this earth after the 7 last plagues, which renders this earth "the uninhabited place".

Does anyone here know of another group which teaches this?   I personally agree with this teaching. 

Jeremiah wrote that he was shown "the earth" AFTER "the great day of the LORD".   He said: 

NET  Jeremiah 4:23 "I looked at the land and saw that it was an empty wasteland. I looked up at the sky, and its light had vanished."

NKJ  Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light."

NIV  Jeremiah 4:23 I looked at the earth, and it was formless and empty; and at the heavens, and their light was gone."

The Hebrew translated "without form and void" is the same as that of Genesis 1:2. 

I seems logical to me, that Satan would be confined on this planet he destroyed.   He was cast out of heaven, to this earth. 

The Greek abussos of Revelation 20:3 is a bottomless void, which also fits.  (At least to my thinking.) 

[8thdaypriest]

The saints returning to "the land" from the Father's House would "tred on" the old ashes left from the big Gog/Magog Battle, and those left when "the earth and all her works" were "burned up".   

Remember:  Ashes from your fire pile make great fertilizer for your garden.  We use them this way quite frequently. 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

12 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I could say a lot of things at this point, but before I do I have to ask you a question or two for clarifications, if I may? I feel that me answering your question or proposal would not be very beneficial unless you can tell me what exactly you are talking about when you say "Adventists do not have a clear understanding?"  What references, (book & page no), and what is YOUR "reasonable assessment"  of Ezekiel 36-37, and what is wrong with the "Adventist understanding) (book & page # please from Adventist publication.

I will repeat what I said earlier: “In contrast Ezekiel 38 is speaking concerning events before the 1000 years, but this does not fit SDA theology”. The following is a brief synopsis of Ezekiel 38. Ezekiel 38 depicts an invasion from the north by a confederacy of nations into the land of Israel. This will be in the latter days, and it will be at a time when the Jews have recently returned to the Holy Land. They will have returned in unbelief of Jesus as their Messiah, and they will become agriculturalists and traders. When this northern army invades, then God will intervene and destroy those armies, and then convert Israel Ezekiel 39, and then the Temple will be established Ezekiel 40-48.

I suggest that the above does not fit in with SDA theology because SDAs teach that the earth will be burnt for the 1000 years and often quote Jeremiah 4:23-24. I do not have a SDA commentary on Ezekiel 38, so I cannot help you here. I was hoping that you may have a commentary on this.

I have the following SDA books:

SDAs Believe – A Biblical Exposition 27 Fundamental Doctrines: On page 363, Chapter 26, The Millennium and the End of Sin, it says “During this time the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants.”

SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine: There is a brief mention of Ezekiel 38-39 on page 225, but it appears in reference to the return under Ezra and Nehemiah. It goes on to say that Ezekiel 38-39 were not realized, and then proceeds with Section 10 page 226, Literal Israel Replaced by Christian Church. On page 478 it speaks of the different groups that supported William Miller. Some believed in the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and some of these believed in the restoration of natural Israel. It then mentions that others believed that the earth would be burnt for 1000 years, and the book is in support of this.

The Great Controversy: My quick browse of this book does not seem to consider that in the latter days there will be a great controversy concerning the land of Israel and Jerusalem as depicted in Ezekiel 38 and other latter day prophecies. Perhaps you are more familiar with this book.

The Prophetic Code: I completed this correspondence course and no explanation of Ezekiel 38 was given.

Thus my literature is limited, but my experience indicates that the above is the general SDA position on Ezekiel 38 but SDA theology cannot agree with the detail given in Ezekiel 38.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

What Adventist theology is this? Can you name it. What doctrine do Adventists have which would recommend a rejection of Ezekiel 36-37?) Which of the 28 Fundamental beliefs could be clearly shown that they recommend rejextion of any of the OT or NT prophecies about israel?  Your posting here either cannot or will not address this question, with truth  I dont feel that you are reflecting a very good grasp of Adventist doctrine and that it is clouding the accuracy of your statements regarding the church

 

I did give some references from the few books that I possess, but you have not agreed or disagreed with my brief comments on these. Also you have not commented on Ezekiel 38 and my brief summary of what I believe it teaches.

Seeing you have not given the SDA view of Ezekiel 38, the following is from one of William Miller’s contemporaries who had contact with him, but disagreed with him at the time, 1843. He believed in the return of the Jews in unbelief of Jesus as the Messiah, and then their conversion, before the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth.

He wrote the following in 1847, and some of his comments are coloured by his times, but the comments on the return of the Jews is based on Ezekiel 38:

“There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis, of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as “a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land” Ezekiel 38:11-13. ”

Kind regards
Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

2 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

All you did was name a few books and did your own opinion. You gave no page numbers except for one book, which was not necessarily revelant, but the point is, you are posting generalized statements about "what Adventists really believe," without giving us clear examples with references. Surely, if you are going to say stuff like this publically, you would have a solid back ground of references, showing clearly that the Adventist church does indeed believe or not believe as you say. If what you allege is simply your personal opinion, and you have nothing to back it up good and solid, and btw the Bible would be sufficient for that, then you should say so. Telling the public that you know the names of a few "Adventist" books and courses, does nothing to prove what you are alleging against the church in your prophecy polemic about Prophecy in Ezekiel.

Would you like to give a brief summary of YOUR understanding of Ezekiel 38?

Kind regards
Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again The Wanderer,

 

He wrote the following in 1847, and some of his comments are coloured by his times, but the comments on the return of the Jews is based on Ezekiel 38:

There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis, of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as “a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land” Ezekiel 38:11-13. ”

There IS a wall separating the present nation of Israel from the Palestinian territories.   The inhabitants of the present nation of Israel certainly do not "dwell safely".   Rockets are frequently fired from Syrian territory, and they live under constant thread of annihilation by Iran or another Muslim nations.  

I would say the description of the returned Israelites is a little off.   Who knows?  Maybe some future peace treaty will cause the Israelis to pull down that WALL they put up for protection. 

[8thdaypriest]

I gave away my set of SDA commentaries a few years ago.  Looked in my copy of "Great Controversy".  It references only Revelation 20, in connection with Gog/Magog.  Ezekiel 38 is not referenced.  I still have a copy of "Prophets and Kings".  Didn't find anything in that volume either.  

I do remember - concerning Ezekiel's Temple - that the SDA commentary says only that "it might have been",  if Israel had truly returned to the LORD.  In other words, it will never come to exist.   Back in 2010-11, I was doing a lot of study into Ezekiel's Temple, and I remember the SDA commentary dismissing the whole thing as a "might have been".  Personally, I cannot accept that.  The prophecy is very detailed, and takes up a good amount of space.   Why would the LORD give Ezekiel such a detailed prophecy, if it was only a "might have been".  

I do believe it was a duel prophecy, so some things could be symbolic.   At the time the prophecy was given,  Israel would indeed "return to the land" at the end of 70 years, and would rebuild the House of the LORD.   But at the time of that "return", it would NOT YET BE time to "change" the priesthood,  or for Jesus Christ to reign over Israel.  The one true sacrifice for all time, had not yet been offered. 

The animal sacrifices symbolized Christ and His blood.  The "prince" - ultimately - will be Jesus in the final complete fulfillment.   The High Priest - ultimately - will also be Jesus Christ,  and the "sons of Zadok" will be those who serve Christ faithfully and have become "priests of God and of Christ" to reign over "the nations". 

It gets more interesting when you look at the furniture (or lack of furniture) INSIDE the Temple that Ezekiel was shown. 

[8thdaypriest]

I have read Joel Richardson's books, and John Haggi, and Thomas Horn/Cris Putnam, who all believe the prophecy of Ezekiel 28 will be fulfilled in the last days, prior to the return of Christ, and will be a battle against the present "returned" Jews,  brought by attacking Muslim nations.  

I have explained why I fear that Battle against the present "returned Jews" will be a deception of the Evil One to pave the way for his rule - pretending to be Messiah come. 

There is a series I wrote posted on prophecyviewpoint.com.   I explain definitions for the name "Israel".  I explain my belief that citizens of the true Israel have faith in God and His Son.  It's about faith, not physical descent. 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/18b-Israel-Part II - Who are Israel.htm

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/28-ISRAEL.htm

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/18c-Israel-Part III - Another Temple.htm

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/18d-Israel-Part IV - Masterpiece of Deception.htm

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I gave away my set of SDA commentaries a few years ago.  Looked in my copy of "Great Controversy".  It references only Revelation 20, in connection with Gog/Magog.  Ezekiel 38 is not referenced.  I still have a copy of "Prophets and Kings".  Didn't find anything in that volume either.

I thought that there would be some SDA commentaries. I am still a hoarder / collector and still keep all my books. I have two Ezekiel commentaries that agree with the view I support from my fellowship, one older and one newer, more thorough. I have many magazine articles and listened to many public addresses on this subject.

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do remember - concerning Ezekiel's Temple - that the SDA commentary says only that "it might have been",  if Israel had truly returned to the LORD.  In other words, it will never come to exist.   Back in 2010-11, I was doing a lot of study into Ezekiel's Temple, and I remember the SDA commentary dismissing the whole thing as a "might have been".  Personally, I cannot accept that.  The prophecy is very detailed, and takes up a good amount of space.   Why would the LORD give Ezekiel such a detailed prophecy, if it was only a "might have been".  

Yes, I agree that the detail is evidence that the Temple will be built as well as the sequence Ezekiel 38-39 then Ezekiel 40-48. I was interested in your other comments concerning the Temple in the rest of your Post. Possibly different to your view, I consider it will be the Temple of the 1000 years. The faithful believers will be king / priests in this Temple, and there will be mortal subjects. At the end of the 1000 years the last enemy, death will be destroyed, so your role as an 8th day priest will not be required. I suggest that you alter your forum name to 7th day priest. I have a 1887 book on the Temple of Ezekiel’s prophecy written by an architect, who spent quite some years on the subject. His conclusions were that the Temple will be a square edifice, and an inner separate circular edifice which surrounds an elevated Mount Zion. He suggests that Mount Zion is elevated, and the surrounding areas reduced as a result of the earthquake of Zechariah 14.

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I have read Joel Richardson's books, and John Haggi, and Thomas Horn/Cris Putnam, who all believe the prophecy of Ezekiel 28 will be fulfilled in the last days, prior to the return of Christ, and will be a battle against the present "returned" Jews,  brought by attacking Muslim nations.  

I have explained why I fear that Battle against the present "returned Jews" will be a deception of the Evil One to pave the way for his rule - pretending to be Messiah come. 

I am not sure if these are SDA writers, but I guess that they are Pentecostals or Evangelicals, where some of these ideas seem popular. They have accepted the idea promulgated at first by the Papacy to deflect the Protestant claim that the Papacy was the anti-Christ.  I believe that the real controversy or contest is between the 4^th Empire, the Roman iron of Daniel 2 also known as the 4th beast of Daniel 7 and Christ when he returns and has gathered the faithful. My understanding is that this will be headed up at first by a Russian military invasion from the north Ezekiel 38. After the destruction of these armies, there will be the religious opposition headed up by the Papacy and Europe, especially as depicted in Daniel 7 and Revelation. Thus I believe the Muslim concept and the Anti-Christ concept that is popular among Pentecostals and Evangelicals is incorrect. The Papacy is the anti-Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Yes, I agree that the detail is evidence that the Temple will be built as well as the sequence Ezekiel 38-39 then Ezekiel 40-48. I was interested in your other comments concerning the Temple in the rest of your Post. Possibly different to your view, I consider it will be the Temple of the 1000 years. The faithful believers will be king / priests in this Temple, and there will be mortal subjects. At the end of the 1000 years the last enemy, death will be destroyed, so your role as an 8th day priest will not be required. I suggest that you alter your forum name to 7th day priest. I have a 1887 book on the Temple of Ezekiel’s prophecy written by an architect, who spent quite some years on the subject. His conclusions were that the Temple will be a square edifice, and an inner separate circular edifice which surrounds an elevated Mount Zion. He suggests that Mount Zion is elevated, and the surrounding areas reduced as a result of the earthquake of Zechariah 14.

The name I took here - 8th Day Priest - comes from Leviticus Cpt 8 and 9.   The instructions concerning the priesthood commanded a consecration of 7 days, after which - on the 8th day - those consecrated would begin to minister as priests.   "The 8th Day" - I believe - will be the 8th millennium.  Peter wrote that "with the LORD a thousand years is as a day, and a day as a thousand years".  

I believe that Christ will return at the start of the 7th millennium.   We agree on that I think.  There will be a resurrection of both righteous and wicked (Daniel 12:1-3).  The righteous will rise to everlasting life, and the wicked to shame and everlasting condemnation.   The wicked (including the Beast and the False Prophet) will die as the earth is consumed by fire.   I do not believe they will ever be raised to life again.  The Beast is not just one man.  Neither is "the false prophet".  The Beast includes all who have knowingly persecuted the people of God.  And the False Prophet includes all who have preached a false message, opposed to the truth of God and His Son. 

I do not believe - as SDAs teach - that all of the wicked will be resurrected again at the 8th millennium, only to be finally executed.   Why execute people twice?  Once was not enough?  The wicked raised at the Second Coming (Beast and False Prophet)  are "thrown into the lake of fire" at that time.  Nothing is served by pulling them out of that fire, only to throw them in again. 

But Revelation speaks of another group called "the rest of the dead".   They are not resurrected at this time- at the Second Coming.  They are raised 1000 years later (Rev 20:5).  I believe these will be "the nations" of those who lived and died in ignorance, immaturity, or disability such that they could not freely CHOOSE to serve Yahweh and His Son.  The redeemed - as priests - will serve these people, teaching them the ways of the LORD.   This is when I believe Zechariah 14, and Isaiah 2:1-4, and many other prophecies of Israel reigning over "the nations" will come to pass.  This is when - I believe - that Ezekiel's Temple will be built.   And the army of Gog/Magog will be composed of people from "the rest of the dead" who refuse to serve Christ and rather rebel against Him.  

Satan is imprisoned during the 7th millennium, and is only loosed to "deceive the nations" at the 8th millennium.  

And yes - I agree that faithful believers will be king/priests at Ezekiel's Temple, and there will be mortal subjects.   The "mortal subjects" will be "the rest of the dead" who are raised to continue their lives.  Individuals from this group - "the rest" - will only be made immortal citizens of the Kingdom of Messiah, only AFTER they HEAR, BELIEVE, and CHOOSE to serve King Jesus.   Belief that results in service, is the condition for salvation/immortality and citizenship in the Kingdom of God.   If one died without information or mental maturity, then one cannot CHOOSE.   It would be unjust to leave all such human beings dead.   Christ died for them, and loves them.   I believe He will resurrect them, and teach them, and allow them to choose.  And that is where the "priests" come in. 

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I am not sure if these are SDA writers, but I guess that they are Pentecostals or Evangelicals, where some of these ideas seem popular.

Not SDA.  Not Pentecostals.  Baptist and Evangelical. 

I do believe the Papacy will be very much involved in the upcoming events to fulfill prophecy.   I cannot see her being left out.   I'm not certain that she is "the harlot" seen riding the Beast.  Jerusalem was also called a harlot.  

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

6 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

so what book and page number did Miller write this? Why is it so hard to just give the exact references I have been asking for? You say Miller wrote this? I ask, where? You gave a date, but no page number, or book that it came from. It seems as though you are just using quotes from an anti-Adventist web site without checking the references. Why else would you not want to give the book and page numbers here for what you are quoting?

I did not say Miller wrote this. If you read again the Post from which you quoted, I said that this citation was from a contemporary of William Miller who disagreed with Miller. One area of his disagreement was that he believed in the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and the restoration and conversion of a significant portion of natural Israel, as the citation states. William Miller on the other hand believed that the earth would be burnt for the 1000 years, and they would go to heaven in 1843, or 1844, later titled the great disappointment.

The main reason why I did not quote the book and page number was because I was trying to avoid advertising the book as a whole, and preferring to stay with the subject of Ezekiel 38. If I gave you the book, you may look at another page and ridicule his comments on another subject. I do not fully endorse everything he has written, and he never claimed any form of inspiration as per EGW, but I value much or most of his writings, and learn, progress and modify to come to my own conclusions on most subjects. So I do not want to be diverted on to side issues, especially as I sense a slightly antagonistic atmosphere.

I asked if you would like to give a brief explanation of YOUR understanding of Ezekiel 38, but you have not responded as yet. Do you completely dismiss my summary and the citation? Even with the citation, you can see that the position of Britain in relation to the Holy Land developed somewhat differently as a result of WW1 and 2. He was trying to understand how Britain could become involved from a Victorian British Empire perspective.

Kind regards
Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This is when I believe Zechariah 14, and Isaiah 2:1-4, and many other prophecies of Israel reigning over "the nations" will come to pass.  This is when - I believe - that Ezekiel's Temple will be built. 

My understanding of the following is that it is describing the 1000 years upon the earth after Christ’s coming. It speaks of the end of this period when even death is destroyed. To what period do you apply this?

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 (KJV): 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Also concerning your earlier Post concerning the walls around cities in Ezekiel 38, the present status in Israel is that the whole land is inhabited, rather than having pockets around fenced or walled cities. The present security fences and walls have nothing to do with resisting an invading army.

Kind regards
Trevor

[LifeHiscost]

 

When will we walk on the ashes of the wicked?

To me, even the thought is repugnant. This thought below makes me believe, our Father might sympathize with that reaction.

11 Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ ...Ezekiel 33

God is Love!~Jesus saves!