When will we walk on the ashes of the wicked?

[8thdaypriest]

I am in sync with TrevorL, concerning the 6000 years, and then the SC, followed by a "rest" (sabbath) of 1000 years, followed by the resurrection of "the nations".

I do not think it probable - just highly possible.  

The "experts" are not unified on exactly which year Jesus was crucified.  Some say 30, some 31, and some say 33.   I am personally inclined to go with 33.   If Jesus does return 2000 years from when He ascended, and IF He ascended in 33, that leaves only 16 years until His return.   The last 3.5 will be terrible persecution for the people preaching the truth.  That only leaves 12.5 of relative "peace" and perhaps "prosperity" to teach the Gospel, until the persecution descends. 

I do not expect things to get better in this world.  I expect immorality and violence and selfishness, and ignorance of the truths of God to grow worse and worse.  This world will grow darker and still darker, with only a few lights shining. 

[Gregory Matthews]

In a previous post, TrevorL said:

. . . SDAs teach that the earth will be burnt for the 1000 years and often quote Jeremiah 4:23-24.

There is more than one way to understand the above comment.  I am uncertain as to exactly which way you meant.  However, if your intent was to say that the Earth would be on fire for 1,000 years, that is not SDA teaching.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Greg,

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There is more than one way to understand the above comment.  I am uncertain as to exactly which way you meant.  However, if your intent was to say that the Earth would be on fire for 1,000 years, that is not SDA teaching.

No I do not consider that SDAs teach that the earth will be on fire during the 1000 years. I understand that the SDAs believe that the earth will not be inhabited during the 1000 years, while I believe that such passages as Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21 and many others teach that Jesus will sit upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem in Israel for the 1000 years accompanied by the faithful will rule with him as King Priests. Jeremiah 3:23-24 is often quoted by SDAs, but this is figurative language that firstly describes the desolation of the land after the Babylonian invasion and Judah’s removal and captivity. It could describe some of the desolation immediately after Armageddon before Jesus comes to restore and refresh the earth at the beginning of the 1000 years Acts 3:19-21, Psalm 72, 2 Samuel 23:1-5 and this also fits in with the subject and detail of this thread, Malachi 4:1-3.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Yes, I can agree with this

One prophecy in this category is the prediction of Messiah’s birth in Bethlehem in Micah 5:1-2, with the hint that his birth would be in humble circumstances or that Bethlehem was considered an insignificant village. The fulfilment is remarkable, the census, the birth in the stables, the visit by the magi, the distress by those in Jerusalem, the reaction of Herod and the slaughter, the announcement to the shepherds and the praise of the angels.

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I do understand how "millenium" is used in the secular world to describe 1000 years, but I do not see a bunch of "milleniums" listed in the Bible, but I will listen to sound reasoning about it from scripture

I agree that there is only one mentioned in the Bible, the 1000 years. This has often been called “the Millennium”.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV): Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Prior to the direct mention of 1000 years there is the detail in 1 Corinthians 15, where it speaks of a period of time after the return of Jesus and the resurrection, and during this period Jesus overcomes all opposition, and eventually completely annuls all death. Thus this is the work of Jesus during the 1000 years.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV): 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Kind regards
Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/27/2017 at 10:51 PM, The Wanderer said:

this is a form of time-setting, which Jesus has strongly preached against

By this I assume you mean estimating a date for the Second Coming.   Because many around the time of Christ had studied out the time prophecies, and said "the time is fulfilled" for the Christ to come.  And they were right. 

Where did Jesus strongly preach against any attempt - at any time,  to estimate the time of His return?   He said, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."   (Mat 24:36 NKJ)  He did NOT say that no one would ever know.   He said that no one knew, THEN - on the day that He said those words.  Don't you think that Jesus presently knows?  And what about the Holy Spirit.  IF the spirit is indeed a third divine being, then would He not have known? 

Acts 1:6-7  Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. (NKJ)

I don't think we can generalize this statement by Christ, to include all men for the rest of the age.    I personally believe that - as we get closer - God will reveal it.   Especially as the trumpet judgments begin.  

It was not for His disciples, living at that time.   If they had known that Christ would not return for another 2000 years, they might have gone back to their old professions.  Why come under persecution, and travel to distant lands to preach the Gospel, if Christ would not return until after they were long dead?  The sense of urgency came from their belief that He would return soon.  Every disciple (including Paul also) thought that Christ would return within his lifetime.  They were wrong of course, but that belief lit a fire under them, and that fire was needed at that time. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/27/2017 at 11:06 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings Greg,

No I do not consider that SDAs teach that the earth will be on fire during the 1000 years. I understand that the SDAs believe that the earth will not be inhabited during the 1000 years, while I believe that such passages as Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21 and many others teach that Jesus will sit upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem in Israel for the 1000 years accompanied by the faithful will rule with him as King Priests. Jeremiah 3:23-24 is often quoted by SDAs, but this is figurative language that firstly describes the desolation of the land after the Babylonian invasion and Judah’s removal and captivity. It could describe some of the desolation immediately after Armageddon before Jesus comes to restore and refresh the earth at the beginning of the 1000 years Acts 3:19-21, Psalm 72, 2 Samuel 23:1-5 and this also fits in with the subject and detail of this thread, Malachi 4:1-3.

Kind regards Trevor

Did you read the verse I posted?   When "the heavens" and "the earth" PERISH, that leaves them DEAD.   PERISH means to DIE.   If the earth and the heavens DIE,  how will any human beings survive on this planet?  

On 12/27/2017 at 3:42 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Hebrews 1:10-12  [This is God the Father speaking to His Son.]   "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." (NKJ)

The Hebrew for "earth" is the same word for "land".  Some teach that "the earth" to be destroyed, will be only "the land" promised to Abraham's seed.   Hebrews 1:10-12 pretty much eliminates that theory.   The earth and the heavens which will perish, are those ones created by the Son of God.   That's all of them. 

Concerning all the verses you sited concerning the reign of Messiah - - my belief is that Jesus will sit upon the throne of David in Jerusalem rebuilt and restored, to reign with His King priests - at the 8th millennium, NOT the 7th millennium. 

I say this because I believe the earth will be "without form and void" (Jeremiah 4) during the 7th millennium.   There will be no nations to reign over.   At the 8th millennium, "the rest of the dead" will "live again" (Rev. 20:5).  That is when we will "rule the nations" - under our King and High Priest Jesus. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

48 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Did you read the verse I posted?   When "the heavens" and "the earth" PERISH, that leaves them DEAD.   PERISH means to DIE.   If the earth and the heavens DIE,  how will any human beings survive on this planet?  

Yes, I read your quotation of Hebrews 1:10-12 but chose not to respond at that time. To accept your view, it is necessary to ignore all the detail of many of the OT prophecies. It is not good enough to say, “put all these details on hold for another 1000 years because I believe that Jeremiah 3:23-24 teaches that the earth will be desolate for 1000 years”. The detail speaks of a change when Christ returns, not wholesale destruction. I notice also that when you explain Hebrews 1:10-12 you do not emphasise that the heaven was going to perish as this does not fit in with your concept based on Jeremiah 3:23-24 and other passages. Perhaps you may like to explain Isaiah 65:17-25 where it speaks of a new heaven and earth. This is speaking of the 7th Millennium. You fail to recognise figurative and poetical language. You force literal detail when figurative, and in many prophecies you ignore literal detail, such as Isaiah 2:1-5, which speaks of a continuing situation immediately after Armageddon, and this prophecy is the major opening vision of the writing prophets. The heaven and earth that was going to perish in the context of Hebrews was the Mosaic or Jewish heaven and earth in AD70. This is part of the theme of Hebrews, in that they had to let go of the Jewish and Mosaic system because they were a temporary system pointing forward to Christ. Now that Christ had come and the city was to be destroyed by the Romans and the Temple service was to cease, they needed to go outside the camp, as in the Jerusalem as then constituted, they had no continuing city.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The heaven and earth that was going to perish in the context of Hebrews was the Mosaic or Jewish heaven and earth in AD70.

No.   "The heavens" did not disappear, in 70 AD.

The "heavens" and "the earth" - which are going to "perish" - are the ones the Son of God created "in the beginning".   The earth we both currently live on, and the "heavens" we live under.

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Hebrews 1:10-12  [This is God the Father speaking to His Son.]   "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." (NKJ)

"They will perish".    WHEN does this happen?  

NIV  2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

3:10  But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

NOTHING left on the earth will survive! 

Convenient that you call anything you don't agree with - "figurative"

What is the problem with moving the fulfillment of the prophecies describing people from the nations coming up to learn the ways of the LORD, to the 8th millennium?  That is when "the rest" are resurrected to "live again" (Rev. 20:5).  

"With the LORD a thousand years is as a day" (2Peter 3:8).  That's not very long - in the scheme of things.   The prophecies you site WILL come to pass - just "a day" later. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

No.   "The heavens" did not disappear, in 70 AD.

The "heavens" and "the earth" - which are going to "perish" - are the ones the Son of God created "in the beginning".   The earth we both currently live on, and the "heavens" we live under.

I appreciate your response and the following is my brief explanation of this difficult passage. I still find it slightly difficult, and I imagine that you will find my explanation difficult to accept and this was one factor why I avoided this passage previously.

When Moses and Isaiah addressed the heavens and the earth, he is speaking to the rulers of Israel, and their subjects those ruled, the people.

Deuteronomy 32:1 (KJV): Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Isaiah 1:2 (KJV): Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Thus heaven and earth is not always speaking of the Genesis creation, but the language can be used figuratively of the Mosaic heavens and earth.

The context of the verses that Paul quotes from Psalm 102 is the sufferings of David and his appeal to Yahweh, God the Father. These types of Psalms have David’s experiences as their basis, but the Spirit inspired Psalm usually has a greater and better fulfilment in the sufferings of Christ, and this is often called “The Spirit of Christ in the Psalms”. The very words of the Psalms anticipate and express the very thoughts and words of Jesus during his ministry. Thus the following, and especially v12 are the thoughts of Jesus, and his claim is that it is Yahweh, God the Father who shall endure for ever.

Psalm 102:8-12 (KJV): 8 Mine enemies reproach me all the day; and they that are mad against me are sworn against me. 9 For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping, 10 Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. 11 My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass. 12 But thou, O LORD, shalt endure for ever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.

It is the same suffering servant in v24 who recognises the brevity of his days that addresses Yahweh, God the Father whose years continue throughout all generations:

Psalm 102:24-27 (KJV): 24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

V24 and v25 then speak of how Yahweh, God the Father established the Mosaic heavens and earth, and then v26 speaks of how that these heavens and earth will wax old like a garment. Before commenting on v27, compare the language of v26 with the following:

Hebrews 8:7-12 (KJV): 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

V13 has the same language as Hebrews 1:10-11, and it is not speaking of the literal heavens and earth, but the Mosaic heavens and earth, and as here the old covenant that is to vanish away, being fully replaced by the new covenant.

Psalm 102:27 (KJV): But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Now this is where I face my difficulty. This uses the same language as v12 and v24 that I apply strictly to Yahweh God the Father. My only suggestion at this stage, especially as Paul in Hebrews applies this to Jesus, is that this is God the Father’s answer to Jesus, that he too will after his resurrection endure for ever. Jesus is the development of the Yahweh Name. The expression “the same” is picked up and also applied to Jesus in the following:

Hebrews 13:8 (KJV): Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Kind regards
Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

The whole point of His message was that none of us are going to know exactly when. And I like to think that Jesus has very good reasons for that. We can know that “it is near, even at the doors.” (Mat 24:33, Mark 13:29). But nowhere does the Bible say that someday, someone will be able to give us the day and the hour.

IMPO - I believe Jesus will return on a Day of Atonement.  That is Judgment Day.   He died on Passover - the exact day and hour.  Why would He not return to banish the scapegoat on the Day of Atonement?  Even Mrs White says the Fall types "will be fulfilled in lake manner" with the Spring types.  I didn't say what year.  Don't know yet. 

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Hebrews 13:8 (KJV): Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Even though the Son of God became human, His character remained THE SAME. 

So - you're saying the first COVENANT is equal to THE HEAVENS ?  Is that right? 

[8thdaypriest]

I'm surprised Wanderer.  I thought you would support SDA teaching that this earth and our "heavens" (the heavens with the clouds and our atmosphere) will be "rolled back as a scroll" at the SC. 

Revelation 6:14 "Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place." (NKJ)

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So - you're saying the first COVENANT is equal to THE HEAVENS ?  Is that right?

Rather as I said before, when Moses and Isaiah addressed the heavens and the earth, he is speaking to the rulers of Israel, and their subjects those ruled, the people.

Deuteronomy 32:1 (KJV): Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Thus heaven and earth is not always speaking of the Genesis creation, but the language can be used figuratively of the Mosaic heavens and earth.

Perhaps I need to clarify, as it could be suggested that Moses is simply calling heaven and earth to witness his pronouncement. The literal heaven and earth do not have ears, and cannot actually hear the words of Moses’ mouth. But the following speak of a new heaven and earth. Now it is evident that this is not speaking of an actual new heaven, and an actual new earth, but heaven and earth represent here the system of things. We speak of the Jewish world, but this is not a new planet, but a system of things.

Isaiah 65:17–25 (KJV): 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

The old covenant was part of the Mosaic system, and when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed, the Mosaic heaven and earth perished, and the Old Covenant was fully superseded.

Kind regards
Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

You have commented before on "my SDA Beliefs," and I need to inform you that SDA beliefs do not belong to me, and also, Rev 6:14 is not "SDA Belief," it is a statement in Scripture, first, and a part of Seventh-day Adventist teachings second. You do not have a right to make claims about my personal beliefs because you actually know very little about that subject, and you seem to just enjoy telling me what I believe, or should believe, yet, conveniently, you dont actually ask me. So tell us. Where did you learn to read people's minds?

I think it's time I exit this this thread.  I fear it is becoming contentious. 

Trevor, I cannot agree with your view, but respect your right to hold that view, and to voice it here. 

I pray blessings for you always.

Rachel

 

[phkrause]

On 11/27/2017 at 2:31 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

When will this prophecy be fulfilled - that the redeemed will walk on the ashes of the wicked?   When exactly are the wicked burned to ashes? 

The SDABC says it better than I can say it: on verse 3 it says,

3. Tread down. The righteous are pictured as finally victorious over the wicked.

It seems to me this takes place when its all done and over with!! Not actually a prophecy per say, but finally the righteous have the last victory over the wicked!!

Here's how the CJB translates Malachi 4:1-3:

1 For the day is coming, burning like a furnace, when all the proud and evildoers will be stubble; the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot, "and leave them neither root nor branch.

2 But to you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will break out leaping, like calves released from the stall.

3 You will trample the wicked, they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I take action," says ADONAI-Tzva'ot.

[JoeMo]

On 12/26/2017 at 11:27 PM, The Wanderer said:

Just because you "have no trouble" with it, does not make it Biblical.

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, either.  Does that make the Trinity unbiblical?

"Millennium" is quite commonly understood to mean 1,000 years.

According to Webster, the definition of Millennium is:

Definition of millennium

plural millennia play \-nē-ə\ or millenniums

1a : the thousand years mentioned in Revelation (see revelation 3) 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth

b : a period of great happiness or human perfection

2a : a period of 1000 years; especially : one reckoned from the beginning of the Christian era

at the start of the third millennium

b : a 1000th anniversary or its celebration 

So if a millennium = 1,000 years in the dictionary, doesn't it make sense that 1,000 years in the Bible = a millennium?  It ain't rocket science.

On the other hand, "Trinity" means "3 Persons in one God"  I don't see either the word "millennium" or the phrase "3 Persons in one God" anywhere in scripture.  Using your logic, the Trinity is unbiblical.

[JoeMo]

8thdaypriest said:

"If Jesus does return 2000 years from when He ascended, and IF He ascended in 33, that leaves only 16 years until His return."

To which Wanderer replied:

"Once again this point has arisen. There is absolutly nothing in Scripture to support this line of thinking, and this is a form of time-setting, which Jesus has strongly preached against."

2Peter 3:8 says "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

  It is easy to infer from this statement that a day in the Bible = 1,000 years.  But wait - aren't there other verses in the bible that say a day = 1 year (Numbers 14:34 and  Ezek. 4:5-6)?  So I agree with Wanderer on this point.  We can't just pick and choose what a "day" is equal to in the Bible.  It's defined more by the context than the literal words.

However, in Revelation, the term "a thousand years" is used explicitly.  So I'm okay with using the term "millennium" to describe the 1,000 years discussed in Revelation.

[JoeMo]

On 12/29/2017 at 5:10 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Hi Rachel,

You think this refers to the beginning of Jesus' thousand year reign. I think it comes at the end of the thousand years.  I take this view from Rev. 20:7-9:

" When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves.But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

This is the only place in scripture (that I could find) that mentions a specific time when God burns up the earth.

I have to admit that I have trouble discerning what OT prophecies occur during the 1,000 year reign and what occurs afterward.  While I lean towards a millennium on earth, I won't say that I am right and someone else is wrong.  I just want to be ready to be in the Kingdom wherever it is.