When will we walk on the ashes of the wicked?

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, TrevorL said:

My understanding of the following is that it is describing the 1000 years upon the earth after Christ’s coming. It speaks of the end of this period when even death is destroyed. To what period do you apply this?

Think I already explained my belief.  But I will try again. 

I believe those redeemed (living and resurrected at the SC) will go with Jesus to the "Father's House".  A place has been prepared for us there - the Holy City, New Jerusalem.   Abraham looked for that city.  We will finally go there.   We will spend the upcoming 7th millennium (or at least half of it) at that prepared place.  Then we will return to earth - to "the land". 

The reason I say we may return to earth half way through the 7th millennium, is because the Jubilee began in the 7th month, on the 10th day, which is half way through the 50th year.  At the Jubilee, every man returned to his inheritance.   Jesus will return to His inheritance - with "those who are His".   Jesus is "the seed" who will inherit the land.  He is "the seed of Abraham".   We are "seed of Abraham" IF we belong to Christ.  (Which is another reason that I believe it's about faith, not about having DNA from Abraham and Jacob.) 

When we "return", we will begin to rebuild and repair - on the earth.

At the 8th millennium - "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected.  We (the redeemed) will reign with Christ for a thousand years, OVER "the nations" resurrected at that time. 

NOTE:  Remember - all those who were part of "the Beast" and all those who were part of "the False Prophet" were destroyed back at the Second Coming.  So they won't be resurrected at this time.  Some for all those "raised to shame and everlasting contempt" at the SC. 

Some from those resurrected "nations" WILL choose to serve Christ, and some will rebel (as the Army of Gog/Magog with supporters). 

The Army of Gog/Magog will be wiped out by the fire of God.  

Death and Hell also (Sheol - the place of the dead) will be destroyed.

Jesus will turn the Kingdom over to His Father. 

Jesus - with His Father - will BE the Temple in the Holy City New Jerusalem, after that City descends to earth from the Heavenly realm. 

So to answer your question, I believe 1Cor 15:22-28 will be fulfilled at the END of the 8th millennium. 

If you would like my take on the "Final judgment - Lake of Fire" scene from Revelation 20:11-15, here's a link.

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/27-Final Judgment,Lake of Fire.htm

SDAs put the final judgment BEFORE the Gog/Magog Battle.  But Revelation puts it AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle.

I do not believe that conscious living people will be thrown into the "lake of fire".   That would require a third resurrection.   At the time of the final "great white throne" judgment, all the lost/wicked/rebellious ARE DEAD.   I believe this final "lake of fire" will be God - destroying what He has retained of these individuals - the download from the mind, that allows God to resurrect with mind and memory intact.  [Like a download.]   Think of God destroying all those memory sticks.  God is cleaning His hard drive - so to speak.  He said, in the OT, that He would "blot out the memory" of those who rebelled against Him.   I believe He will do just that.   I just don't believe there will be conscious suffering involved with that final destruction, except for God and His Son, who loved those people, and maybe for those who were saved and grieve the loss of them (even if they do understand the need to do it). 

This is probably a new thought to you.  Please don't just reject it out of hand.  Think about it. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

The "priests of God and of Christ" will rule with Him - over "the nations".   I know that I am NOT personally ready to "rule over" anyone - in the name of Christ.   I would need some preparation.  THAT is what the 7th millennium is for - preparation.   It's not just to look at the lovely golden city, and the beauties of Heaven.  I believe we need a healing time, and a learning time.  

Those who believe Christ will reign on the earth - with His redeemed as priests - during the upcoming 7th millennium, assume we will be ready to govern "the nations" in the name of Christ.  Don't know about you, but I just don't see us Christians READY to assume that rule.   Some died as newborn Christians.   How could they instantly know how Jesus wants us to govern?  Is God going to use the easy button (which He did not use during all the 6000 years) to instantly transform baby Christians into mature governing priests, who understand His Law.   What about all those who served the LORD during past ages?  Won't they need a little refresher - to learn about Jesus?    I just believe the redeemed (from all ages) will need some time at the New Jerusalem University.   
 

  

 

[8thdaypriest]

Yes - the earth will be left in desolation for awhile.  What's so unrealistic about that?   With all the nukes - men could do a good job of destroying life on this planet.  You really believe Satan won't somehow provoke the launch of those weapons?   The earth would need time to "cool off" the radioactivity after such a nuclear exchange.  Then there's the possibility of an asteroid.  Something has to cause an earthquake that flattens every mountain, sinks every island, and moves the earth "out of its place".   If everything in the sea dies, then all the algae would die.  There goes 75% of our oxygen.  If all the plants and grass are destroyed, there goes the other 25%.   So no oxygen to breathe, and nothing to eat. 

I personally do not see how anyone can conclude that people will survive the final holocaust, and that suddenly converted Jews (plus grafted in Gentile believers) will rule over these survivors. 

Such folks believe the Jews will suddenly be converted to Christ, when He shows up at the SC.   Is the LORD going to resurrect all the Hebrews from 30AD to the SC,  so they also can be instantly converted?  

Such Evangelicals believe the LORD is especially blessing the current nation of Israel, (just because they have the right history and DNA) a nation which refuses to allow any entry of written materials or access to internet sites which might influence their citizens towards acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God.  Evangelicals are gaga about supporting Israel, because they believe their support will hasten the fulfillment of prophecies and the return of Christ.   It probably will - but not the way they think. 

Galatians 3:29 "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (NIV)

The current nation of calling itself "Israel", does NOT belong to Christ.  [A small number of believers within that land, excepted.] 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes - the earth will be left in desolation for awhile.  What's so unrealistic about that? 

I appreciate your responses. For my part I believe that Jeremiah 4:23-24 using poetical language describes the desolation that occurred in Israel as a result of the Babylonian invasion. If this is also future, it will apply to the short period of time between Armageddon and the restoration and refreshing that Jesus brings at his coming at the beginning of the 1000 years. Jesus is not coming to destroy and burn the earth, but the net effect will be refreshing and blessing, and the outworking of this 1000 years will be that the earth will be filled with God’s glory.

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

 For my part I believe that Jeremiah 4:23-24 using poetical language describes the desolation that occurred in Israel as a result of the Babylonian invasion. If this is also future, it will apply to the short period of time between Armageddon and the restoration and refreshing that Jesus brings at his coming at the beginning of the 1000 years. Jesus is not coming to destroy and burn the earth, but the net effect will be refreshing and blessing, and the outworking of this 1000 years will be that the earth will be filled with God’s glory.

 

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

What's so "long" about a thousand years (or part of it)?  With the LORD a thousand years is as "a day"  - just a day.  That's no very long. 

2 Peter 3:10  “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

Jesus may not be coming to destroy, but destruction is coming - with THAT DAY. 

 2 Peter 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

I believe the flood of Noah's day was universal.  Peter says "the world that then existed" perished by water.  And the heavens and the earth which have existed since the flood are "reserved for fire" UNTIL "the day of judgment.  When is the "day of judgment"?   Answer:  It will be the day that Jesus returns - for judgment. 

Matthew 25:31-34 & 41  “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  
        Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’...  Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:’”

Sounds like judgment day - to me.   Jesus sits on His throne - in the clouds, above the earth, where everyone will see Him.   He resurrects the redeemed and they ascend to meet Him.  Those who live through to this day, are "caught up to meet Him".   Then the wicked are "cast into fire".  There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 

Zephaniah 1:14-18  “. . . On the day of the Lord’s wrath;  And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.” NAS

Genesis 6:13  “And God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’”

        Luke 17:26-30  “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: . . . the flood came and destroyed them all.  Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: . . . on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.  Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”

        In Noah’s day, the flood destroyed every human being who remained outside of the ark.  On the day that Lot was led out of Sodom, the fire destroyed every living thing left inside the city.  “Even so,” means “just like that.”  The last plagues and the "fire" will destroy all life on planet earth.  AS Peter says, "reserved for fire" until that day. 

Jesus may then heal the earth later.  Yes.  But those who become "priests of God and of Christ" will NOT minister to those who survive the destruction of that day, (including the plagues which are unleashed on that day).  No. 

1000 years later, they will teach and govern those resurrected as "the rest of the dead". 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

A different translation:   Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out, 20 so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send the Messiah appointed for you, that is, Jesus, (NRS)

The "refreshing" comes from the Spirit.  Those who believe, repent, and are baptized in the name of Jesus - receive this "refreshing".     The "life giving Spirit" that comes into the heart - is Jesus - the Messiah, who was "made a life giving spirit" ( 1Cor 15:45). 

The "times of refreshing" began with Pentecost. Prophecy was fulfilled.  The Spirit was poured upon all flesh (Joel 2:28).  Those who did not resist, were refreshed. 

The "times of restitution" will start at the SC.  Restitution for wrong doing, and restitution for "good works".  The restoration of justice.  This is Revelation 11:15-18.

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." (NKJ)

7th angel is the "last trump", when Paul said that he would be rewarded. 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

48 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

believe the flood of Noah's day was universal.  Peter says "the world that then existed" perished by water.

Seeing you mention Noah, with compliments from my wife Joyce, she suggested that the following does not allow the burning of the earth for 1000 years.

Genesis 8: 21-22 (KJV): 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

26 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "times of refreshing" began with Pentecost. Prophecy was fulfilled.

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The above seems to indicate that the restoration occurs at the return of Jesus, and any reading of the prophets indicates that there will not be a full scale destruction at the return of Christ, and note it says ALL his holy prophets.

Kind regards
Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Genesis 8: 21-22 (KJV): 21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. 22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

If the "earth" is "burned up", then it doesn't "remain" - at least not as it was.  

Isaiah 24:19 The earth is utterly broken, the earth is torn asunder, the earth is violently shaken. (NRS) 

Revelation 21:1 “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

Malachi 4:1  “‘For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,’ Says the LORD of hosts, ‘That will leave them neither root nor branch.’”  

        This prophecy was written after the Babylonian destruction.  The Romans who came later, did not kill every Jew in Judea (much less every wicked or proud one).

Hebrews 6:7-8  “For the earth . . . if it bears thorn and briers, it is rejected  . . . whose end is to be burned.”

Isaiah 13:13  “Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will move out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts and in the day of His fierce anger.”

Here's the NIV:   Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

Hard to see how planting, harvesting, and the usual day/night rotation will continue after this event.  

The LORD promised Noah that He would not again destroy the earth - by water.   OK.  The next destruction will be by fire (and 7 last plagues). 
 

[8thdaypriest]

When God said to Noah, "I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake", He was quoting His own statement to Adam after the first sin.  

Genesis 3:17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,'"Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life."   (NIV) 

The LORD also said the earth would bring forth "thorns and thistles" (Gen 3:18).   Those are still a problem today.   And the "curse" on the ground (earth) did not apply just to the area promised to Abraham. 

Hebrews 6:7-8  “For the earth . . . if it bears thorn and briers, it is rejected  . . . whose end is to be burned.”   Which means the earth IS STILL "cursed". 

The word "cursed" - in the Hebrew - means "devoted to destruction".  I did a whole study for the PVP website on that word.  If God pronounced something "cursed", then Israelites were not to bring any "cursed" thing "into the camp".   They would bring "the curse" with it.  The story of Achen is a prime example.  And the story of King Saul. 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/17b-CURSED.htm

God "cursed" the earth (the ground) after Adam sinned.   He was telling Noah, that He would not curse it again.  Once was enough to bring ultimate destruction, if man continued in rebellion.   How do I know the earth is STILL "cursed"?  Because it still brings forth "thorns and thistles" and man has to earn his bread by labor. 

[8thdaypriest]

You said that Jesus comes only to heal and bless.  

Jesus also comes to judge and to execute judgment.   In fact, everything that God does - He does through His Son.   Name one thing that God has not done, or will not do, through His Son. 

God created all things - through His Son.  He communicates with mankind - through His Son.  He mediates through His Son.  He reconciles us to Himself - through His Son.  He judges through His Son.  He will execute judgment - through His Son.  And He will heal and restore - through His Son.   His Son also has prepared the Holy City New Jerusalem, for His bride.  

The healing "Lamb" is also "the Lion".  He is "the horn" of the LORD, and His "right arm". 

Yes - there's a study on that too - "Through His Son". 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/46a-Through His Son.htm

[8thdaypriest]

And Kind Regards to you too TrevorL

Rachel

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/4/2017 at 10:24 PM, TrevorL said:

Yes, I agree that the detail is evidence that the Temple will be built as well as the sequence Ezekiel 38-39 then Ezekiel 40-48. I was interested in your other comments concerning the Temple in the rest of your Post. Possibly different to your view, I consider it will be the Temple of the 1000 years. The faithful believers will be king / priests in this Temple, and there will be mortal subjects. At the end of the 1000 years the last enemy, death will be destroyed, so your role as an 8th day priest will not be required. I suggest that you alter your forum name to 7th day priest. I have a 1887 book on the Temple of Ezekiel’s prophecy written by an architect, who spent quite some years on the subject. His conclusions were that the Temple will be a square edifice, and an inner separate circular edifice which surrounds an elevated Mount Zion. He suggests that Mount Zion is elevated, and the surrounding areas reduced as a result of the earthquake of Zechariah 14.

As I see it - The main DIFFERENCE between your interpretation of the prophecies, and my interpretation is the placement of those prophecies which describe people from "the nations" living on the earth, coming up to The House of the LORD at Jerusalem, with Israel ruling over the nations - under Christ.  

You place these things during the 7th millennium.  I place them during the 8th millennium.    But we agree - they will happen.   The House of the LORD at Jerusalem will be rebuilt.

Concerning the Gog/Magog Battle:

In your view - (please clarify if I have this wrong)  - you place this battle BEFORE the return of Christ in glory?  Is this right?  Once Christ destroys the Gog/Magog Army, then peace will reign on the earth.  Is this right?   What about Satan's release at the end of the 1000 years?   In Revelation, it is Satan's release and subsequent deception of the nations, which brings about the Gog/Magog Battle.   

In my view -   there will be TWO battles - both called Gog/Magog.   The first will take place BEFORE the return of Christ in glory.   One third of earth's population (mostly in the Middle East) will die as a result of that battle.  The "miraculous" deliverance of the nation Israel (by the Evil Ones), will pave the way for Satan's appearance, claiming to be Messiah come.  

The second battle - also called - Gog/Magog (named after the first battle, because it is an attack by the nations upon Jerusalem) will take place DURING the 8th millennium.   It will be a rebellion of the nations, against Christ and the rule of His priests.    After this battle, peace really will reign forever, because Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the time of this battle. 

I AGREE with Adventist interpretation in several things:  1. Christ will return to rescue those who are His, and to judge the wicked.  2. Those who belong to Christ will go with Him to the place He has prepared in the Father's House.  3. The earth will be decimated by the 7 last plagues and will remain desolate during the 7th millennium.   4. The "rest of the dead" will be resurrected 1000 years after the Second Coming, at the end of the 7th millennium.  5.  The (final) Gog/Magog Battle will take place during the 8th millennium.  6.  Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the time of the (final) Gog/Magog Battle. 

I DISAGREE with Adventist interpretation on several points:  1.  I do not believe "the rest of the dead" will be all of the wicked from the 6000 years.  I believe they will be nations of those who lived and died in ignorance.  2.  I believe the House of the LORD, will be restored at Jerusalem - for "the nations" to come and learn about Yahweh.  3.  I believe that many from these resurrected nations will come to know and serve Yahweh and His Son.   4.  I believe those rescued at the return of Jesus, will become "priests" to govern and teach "the rest" who are resurrected after the 1000 years. 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8^thdaypriest”,

I appreciate the invitation, but will only comment on part of your Post.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In your view - (please clarify if I have this wrong)  - you place this battle BEFORE the return of Christ in glory?

Yes, but Christ actually intervenes in this battle and is victorious Zechariah 14.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Once Christ destroys the Gog/Magog Army, then peace will reign on the earth.  Is this right?

No, the Gog Battle Ezekiel 38, aka Armageddon Revelation 16:13-16 will only be the start. Revelation 17 follows Revelation 16. Armageddon aka Ezekiel 38 will be one Battle, and after this there will be some nations that submit to Christ, and other nations that oppose Christ. Especially mainly Europe will oppose Christ, headed up by the Anti-Christ the Papacy. This could be a period of 30-40 years.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What about Satan's release at the end of the 1000 years?   In Revelation, it is Satan's release and subsequent deception of the nations, which brings about the Gog/Magog Battle.   

In my view -   there will be TWO battles - both called Gog/Magog.   The first will take place BEFORE the return of Christ in glory.

Yes, there are two battles, one at the beginning of the 1000 years, and the other at the end of the 1000 years.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

One third of earth's population (mostly in the Middle East) will die as a result of that battle.

I do not know what you base this upon. The invading armies will be destroyed, or a large proportion of them. There will be judgements on the nations at that time and in the period of transition.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "miraculous" deliverance of the nation Israel (by the Evil Ones), will pave the way for Satan's appearance, claiming to be Messiah come.

I suggest that this is a wrong view, and those that believe this may actually oppose Christ. Armageddon and Christ's victory is the miraculous deliverance of the nation Israel. The Bible teaching concerning the Anti-Christ has been corrupted by your suggested view. This was introduced by a Catholic to counteract the Protestant view that the Papacy was the Anti-Christ, and this view is now popular with Pentecostals and Evangelicals, some of whom may back the Papacy when he opposes Christ.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

Thank you for clarifying Trevor. 

I've been reading over Genesis 7-9 again.  I noticed in Genesis 3:17 that the ground (0127) was cursed.  Adam was made from that ground, and so were all the animals. 

In Genesis 8:21, the LORD tells Noah that He "will never again curse the ground" (0127) "as I have done".   A thought occurred to me.  During the flood, only those animals and creatures on the dry land were destroyed.  The fish and sea creatures that could swim for an indefinite period, survived (the Ark floated for almost a year).   In Revelation 8:8-9, during the second trumpet, 1/3 of the living creatures in the SEA are destroyed.  Later - at the second bowl plague, "every living creature in the SEA died" (Rev. 16:2).   And I'm thinking the algae would also die, if the SEA becomes like the blood of a dead man.   The algae produces 75% of our oxygen on this planet.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

Do you place the trumpet events BEFORE the 7 last vials?   I do.  

The trumpet events destroy 1/3 of things.  The last vials are universal - "all".    The 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, may be a clue that Satan is behind the trumpets.   He led 1/3 of the angels of heaven in rebellion.  

The average man on the street has heard of the 7 last plagues, but hardly any average Joes know the 7 trumpet events are also plagues, and must come first.   This is where I get the 1/3 of mankind.  From Rev. 9:15.    The 6th trumpet sounds and four angels are released to kill a third of mankind.  These angels were bound at the great river Euphrates.  That's the Middle East.  It sounds to me like a Middle East war.   The number of the army was 200 million, and v. 19 says, "their tails are like serpents".  

Also 9:1 describes the one who opens the bottomless pit, to release the plague of evil on the earth.  He is called a "star fallen from heaven to the earth".   This also makes me think of Satan.  He was "fallen" and he was cast out of heaven to the earth.  9:11 says the angels released from the pit, have a "king over them, the anels of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon" (both of which mean destroyer).  Sure sounds like Satan - to me. 

It seems to me that Satan (the 1/3 general) will stir His armies to attack Jerusalem.   The destruction from that war will pollute parts of the ocean and rivers.  Men will wish for death, but they will not repent (9:20). 

I believe the 7 trumpet plagues will be mistaken for the last vial judgments.   Satan will make it appear that he has "saved" Jerusalem.   He will then appear in a rebuilt Temple on the Mount, to rule the world and bring in peace.  If Satan himself does not appear, he will channel a human he has chosen.   In any case, he will be called Messiah come.  Every religion is looking for a Messiah figure.  He will fill the bill.  For those of no particular religion, he will claim to be an alien from a far galaxy, who has returned to avert disaster to save the planet.  

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

I appreciate your responses. I was hoping that you would have commented on the last part of my post when I responded to your following statement.

On 12/12/2017 at 7:58 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The "miraculous" deliverance of the nation Israel (by the Evil Ones), will pave the way for Satan's appearance, claiming to be Messiah come.

What I cannot understand how on the one hand you believe that as a result of Armageddon there will be peace, and yet you have another outcome that seems to indicate that the miraculous deliverance of Israel will all be Satan’s doing. What Scripture do you use to support this, apart from your environment, such as Pentecostal / Evangelical Anti-Christ teaching?

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In Revelation 8:8-9, during the second trumpet, 1/3 of the living creatures in the SEA are destroyed.  Later - at the second bowl plague, "every living creature in the SEA died" (Rev. 16:2).   And I'm thinking the algae would also die, if the SEA becomes like the blood of a dead man.   The algae produces 75% of our oxygen on this planet.

I believe that the language of Revelation, especially the Seals, Trumpets and Vilas, is symbolic. I believe that the Seals and Trumpets have already occurred, that is these prophecies are fulfilled, and this proves that the language is not literal as you suggest, but symbolic. I believe we are now in the Sixth Vial period with Christ ready to come suddenly on those not ready. The sequence is the Seals, then the Trumpets and then the Vials.

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe the 7 trumpet plagues will be mistaken for the last vial judgments.   Satan will make it appear that he has "saved" Jerusalem.   He will then appear in a rebuilt Temple on the Mount, to rule the world and bring in peace.  If Satan himself does not appear, he will channel a human he has chosen.   In any case, he will be called Messiah come.  Every religion is looking for a Messiah figure.  He will fill the bill.  For those of no particular religion, he will claim to be an alien from a far galaxy, who has returned to avert disaster to save the planet.

Perhaps this in part answer my initial question. What I cannot understand is that you seem to ignore much of the literal detail of the OT prophecies, and then deduct many things from the Book of Revelation. Also I cannot understand your view of all the detail of the OT prophecies and the sequence. It is like a very detailed picture with many interconnected details, but then you seem to suggest that none of this is important as Christ returns and burns up the earth for the 1000 years. It is like taking this previous detailed overall picture, and then painting over every detail in red, fire, and then painting over all the red in black or charcoal, with the whole turned to ashes.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I believe that the language of Revelation, especially the Seals, Trumpets and Vilas, is symbolic. I believe that the Seals and Trumpets have already occurred, that is these prophecies are fulfilled, and this proves that the language is not literal as you suggest, but symbolic. I believe we are now in the Sixth Vial period with Christ ready to come suddenly on those not ready. The sequence is the Seals, then the Trumpets and then the Vials.

Wow!  We are really far apart here.   Not sure what to say.   While I agree that symbols are used to represent things, I believe those things - events or kingdoms or characters - are real. 

Jesus is represented by a lamb, and a priest.  Churches or types of believers,  by lamps in the Temple Menorah.   Satan by a dragon.  Kingdoms by beasts.  Armies by strange insects. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, TrevorL said:

What I cannot understand how on the one hand you believe that as a result of Armageddon there will be peace, and yet you have another outcome that seems to indicate that the miraculous deliverance of Israel will all be Satan’s doing. What Scripture do you use to support this, apart from your environment, such as Pentecostal / Evangelical Anti-Christ teaching?

Did not know my "environment" was Evangelical or Pentecostal.  I don't identify with either.  I am closer to Church of God 7th Day, or Church of God - International, than to any other denomination, but there are some things I believe which do not fit with their teachings.  I call myself independent.  

 It all depends on how you DEFINE "Israel".   There are several definitions. 

1.  The man Jacob, whose name was changed.

2.  The 12 tribes

3.  The 10 Northern tribes, which split away under Jereboam

4.  The returning Judea, from Babylonian captivity - called themselves "Israel".  Paul did also.

5.  Those who belong to Christ (and thus are Abraham's seed).   The unbelievers are "cut off" from the true "Israel". 

 

If "Israel" is the redeemed (whatever their DNA history) then Jesus will deliver His redeemed "Israel" at the Second Coming.   Following this rescue, the redeemed will go with Christ to "the Father's House" (Heaven), where "He has prepared a place" for them (The Holy City New Jerusalem).  

On earth, the 7 Vial plagues are poured out.   There are several possible causes for these plagues.  They are poured out AFTER the redeemed are rescued from earth, beginning on "the DAY" the redeemed are resurrected and rescued. 

 

IF "Israel" is defined as the current nation of that name,  this is the "Israel" which will be used by Satan, to bring the whole world to worship him as "Christ come".  This is the "Israel" which will be "delivered" by the Evil One (in my opinion). 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

In your view, if I DO NOT worship the one who delivers "Israel" (defined as the current nation located in the ME) then I will be fighting against Jesus. 

In my view, IF you DO worship the one who delivers "Israel" (defined as the current nation located in the ME) then you will be worshiping Satan. 

Couldn't get more opposite.  But it does highlight the importance. 

It is terribly scary.   It will require that we stay close to the LORD, and pray continually for wisdom and insight.   In the final days, one can easily end up on the "wrong side".   To assume we already know how things will happen, and already know exactly what to do at that time - seems  arrogant and simplified.   Satan will attempt to deceive "the very elect" - not just the average Joe on the street (who can't even remember who Abraham is). 

I doubt it will go exactly like any of us imagined.    The reason we study prophecy is NOT so we can predict the future.  We study to become familiar with the prophecies, so that WHEN they do come to pass, we will recognize the fulfillment, and recognize the players.  We will still need to pray for the LORD to lead. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

IF "Israel" is defined as the current nation of that name,  this is the "Israel" which will be used by Satan, to bring the whole world to worship him as "Christ come".  This is the "Israel" which will be "delivered" by the Evil One (in my opinion). 

What Scripture do you use to support this view? How do you fit Ezekiel 38-39, 40-48, Zechariah 14, which speak of a miraculous deliverance, but specifically a Divine deliverance, with your view?

Kind regards Trevor

[JoeMo]

Look at Jeremiah 30.  It talks about God gathering Israel from the nations; and then bringing great distress upon them before redeeming them.  Could this be God gathering secular Israel back to their homeland; and then bringing the nations against them to turn their secular humanist hearts to Him and His Son? It looks that way to me.

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again “8thdaypriest”,

What Scripture do you use to support this view? How do you fit Ezekiel 38-39, 40-48, Zechariah 14, which speak of a miraculous deliverance, but specifically a Divine deliverance, with your view?

There is a study on my website, on this topic - Who are Israel? 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/18b-Israel-Part II - Who are Israel.htm

Essentially - I believe that "Israel" is made up of those who serve Jesus the Messiah/King of Israel.    This "Israel" began as mostly Jews, to which were added Gentile believers.  Those who did not believe and serve Him, were "broken off" [from Israel] long ago.  They can be "grafted in again" if they come to believe in and serve Him.   I think this is what you and Joe are talking about - DNA descendants of Jacob, coming to believe in Jesus as Messiah, when He rescues them from an attack by radical Muslim nations.  

But what will He do with all the Hebrews who have lived and died since Jesus resurrection, WITHOUT believing in Him.  Wouldn't He have to resurrect them, in order to change their minds? 

The Jews of today have access to information, more so than peoples of other less well developed nations.  They have had available to them the Gospel of Christ, the NT, and the drawing of the Spirit for nearly 2000 years.   I realize there is great pressure against acceptance of Jesus as the Christ, but the same is true for Muslims, and for those of other devout religious communities.   Why the special miracle - just for the Jews?  

Only a small portion of the current Jewish population of Israel (the nation) even believe in God, much less Yeshua.   Is the miraculous deliverance going to convince all of the population, or just those who already believe that Yahweh exists. 

 "But he said to him,`If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" (Luke 16:31 NKJ) 

It is not difficult to "believe" when faced with a miraculous deliverance.  This happened to OT Israel many times in the wilderness.   But their repentance didn't last very long.   Big miraculous deliverance, does not change the character.  

I just cannot believe the LORD is going to make a special exception for the Hebrew people - a special miraculous deliverance to finally convince them once and for all.  And IF He did, their relationship with Christ would need some serious time - to develop - before they would be ready to "rule the nations". 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again “8thday priest”,

56 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I just cannot believe the LORD is going to make a special exception for the Hebrew people - a special miraculous deliverance to finally convince them once and for all.  And IF He did, their relationship with Christ would need some serious time - to develop - before they would be ready to "rule the nations". 

I do not want to get involved with all your reasoning on this subject, except to state that I do not believe that converted Israel will rule the nations. The faithful from the last 6000 years will be the King / Priests of the 1000 years. Israel will be subjects of the Kingdom, they will be the first dominion of the Kingdom of God Micah 4:1-8. All the other nations will be the other dominions. There is no resurrection to give Israel or individuals a second chance. 

 

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Look at Jeremiah 30.  It talks about God gathering Israel from the nations; and then bringing great distress upon them before redeeming them.  Could this be God gathering secular Israel back to their homeland; and then bringing the nations against them to turn their secular humanist hearts to Him and His Son? It looks that way to me.

I will look at it again Joe.  I will read it very carefully, and pray about it. 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again “8thday priest”,

I do not want to get involved with all your reasoning on this subject, except to state that I do not believe that converted Israel will rule the nations. The faithful from the last 6000 years will be the King / Priests of the 1000 years. Israel will be subjects of the Kingdom, they will be the first dominion of the Kingdom of God Micah 4:1-8. All the other nations will be the other dominions. There is no resurrection to give Israel or individuals a second chance. 

 

Kind regards Trevor

Good to know.   Well - thanks for the dialog.  Blessings