Job

[Dr. Shane]

The key to understand Job as a person is found in chapter 34, verse 35. "Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom."

Through his suffering God was speaking to Job but Job did not understand it. "For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not." 33:14. "He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain: So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out. Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers." 19-22. Elihu is filling Job in with the knowledge Job didn't have.

Now if we put ourselves in Job's shoes I think we will understand. Job was an righteous man. He believed in the Redeemer (19:25) so obviously he was not living a works-based religion. He follows all the truth that has been revealed to him. Then all these bad things happen and he doesn't know what is going on. He lacks wisdom and knowledge. So he starts charging that God is not just. Then comes along Elihu to straighten him out.

God was not punishing Job. The devil was afflicting Job. However through his affliction, God was trying to speak to Job and in the end did exactly that.

[Dr. Shane]

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Then the Jews, who refused Christ through persistent self-righteousness, were not to blame when they were destroyed in 70AD.

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The jews were destroyed for lack of knowledge. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children." Hosea 4:6

If the Jews had reacted to knowledge in the same way Job reacted to the knowledge imparted by Elihu they would not have been destroyed.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

...God pointed to Job who was perfect and upright....

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The story begins as follows:

1] Satan appears before God

2] God [not Satan] brings up Job and says, "Have you considered my servant Job...a blameless and upright man.

3] Satan says, "Does Job fear God for nothing? You have put a hedge around him...."

It is clear that Job did "fear God", but why would God give into Satan's request?

The usual answer is to test Job, but I see it different. To understand "why" God backed off you have to read the book of Job. It tells the story.

When you do you'll realize that God couldn't vindicate Job because Job was too busy vindicating himself. Hence, when God said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job...a blameless and upright man", He was speaking of how Job viewed himself. God couldn't vindicate Job...so legally speaking He had to back off because of Job's attitude. When He did Satan took to finishing off Job's belief in God.

But Job perseveres....He ends up repenting of his self-righteousness. Once that occurred, God restored His protection and blessings.

[Dr. Shane]

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It is clear that Job did "fear God", but why would God give into Satan's request?

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Because God is on trial. Without the understanding the great controvesry one is almost in the same position as Job was (without wisdome and knowledge).

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Job was too busy vindicating himself.

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Job did not have the wisdom and knowledge of what was going on. That is why God sent him Elihu. Once Job understood what was happening he repented of the charges he made against God.

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God couldn't vindicate Job...so legally speaking He had to back off because of Job's attitude.

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Job didn't have an attitude until he was afflicted and even then his attitude was a result of his lack of knowledge.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

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Then the Jews, who refused Christ through persistent self-righteousness, were not to blame when they were destroyed in 70AD.

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The jews were destroyed for lack of knowledge.

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Let me give you Paul's version:

Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works [i.e., they were legalists] . They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him [Jesus] will never be put to shame.”

Matt 23:27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity [self-love].

7 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! 38 Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.

Clearly the problem was self-righteousness.

Rob

[Robert]

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Shane said:

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It is clear that Job did "fear God", but why would God give into Satan's request?

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Because God is on trial.

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So God let Satan beat up on poor Job....Sounds like Job is on trial!

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Job didn't have an attitude until he was afflicted and even then his attitude was a result of his lack of knowledge.

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Then God was unjust in backing off....Job had a problem. That's why God, in His opening statement, addresses it before Satan and the sons of God.

[Dr. Shane]

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Then God was unjust in backing off...

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Sounds like something Job would have said before Elihu enlightened him.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

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Then God was unjust in backing off...

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Sounds like something Job would have said before Elihu enlightened him.

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Let me remind you of what Elihu stated [you missed out on this one]:

Do you [Job] say, ‘My righteousness is more than God’ s‘?

[Planey]

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Shane said:

Sounds like something Job would have said before Elihu enlightened him.

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There is a difference.

Job was willing to listen.

Graeme

[Gerr]

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melvin mccarty said:

You know what really upsets me about the book of Job? We are supposed to believe that something was proved by these discussions but no one ever has any compassion for all of those widows and orphans that were left by the slaughter of all Job's hired help and the families of his children. Why were they mistreated so badly?

The story does not represent the actions of a loving God at all. I can only reconcile by viewing the book as a teaching tool and not a factual account. Is this the kind of a God you could love?

mel

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[:"blue"]That's one of the tragedies about sin - the innocent bystander victim. I have no good explanation for this except to trust in a loving Father.[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Robert said:

By the way, because of my legalism and self-righteousness (years ago) my family suffered, even though they didn't buy into my mistaken theology. Why? They were under my jurisdiction.

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[:"blue"]At least you acknowledge you've been wrong before. What makes you think you are in the right now? [/]

Gerry

[olger]

Self-righteousness would have manifested itself in sin when the roof caved in for Job. Yet. "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

I can accept the fact that Job had things to learn in this experience. Suffering produces beauty as sand produces a pearl.

Identifying Job with Israel fails to explain his existence long before Jacob.

all the best,

olger

[Robert]

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olger said:

"In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly."

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NIV: "In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing."

Right...because God wasn't doing these things to Job!

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

I believe we will find in Job’s story similarities to

your own situation as Laodicea.

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Bold mine LHC

Is this a treatis in answer to someone else's post, Robert?

If yes or no, I'm beginning to see more of why you find it necessary to raise your font a few decibals above the normal. It seems it's found in your quote above made bold.

[:"red"] "And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant;... and I, even I only, am left" [/]

1 Kings 19:10 KJV

Sounds very similar to some remarks made by Job, of which his detracters made light if not nefarious slurs against.

And as in Job's case, though Job proved himself to be all too human, under circumstances many professed followers who believe themselves the "true" followers of God, would outright deny God's existence.

God's answer is enough.

[:"red"] "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. " [/]

1 Kings 19:18 KJV

I happened to agree with a number of conclusions you've reached re: Job. However I've seen you fitting more closely to Jobs's detracters when it comes to similarities between Laodicea (the last body of believers at the time of Christ's

return) than Elihu.

Job's Savior God is the answer He wishes us to be giving each other, to encourage to keep the faith, not making effort to join the cacophony of abusers more apt at dart throwing than sharing the Balm of Gilead.

[:"red"] "And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said ... My wrath is kindled against thee,... for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Therefore ...offer up for yourselves a(n)... offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

...the LORD also accepted Job.

And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before." [/] Job 42:7-10 KJV

[:"red"] " But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." [/] Hebrews 3:13 NASB

[:"red"] "For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself. " [/] Galatians 6:3 AMP brackets theirs LHC

Keep the faith!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Is this the kind of a God you could love?

mel

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[:"blue"]That's one of the tragedies about sin - the innocent bystander victim. I have no good explanation for this except to trust in a loving Father.[/]

Gerry

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It is when we don't understand God's actions, but still give Him our trust, that we exemplify the nature of Christ.

Just as Jesus hung on the cross giving His blood for our sins when we were yet His enemies. Can that be understood any better by fallen humans who are responsible for His death?

[:"red"] "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." [/] Romans 5:8 KJV

[:"red"] "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." [/] Zechariah 13:6 KJV

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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melvin mccarty said:

Robert those women and children (if the story is factual) were real people and you are willing to think of them as just pawns in a celestial chess game?

mel

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As I understand it, those "innocents" were partying down when the disasters took place. As to every possible reason why some didn't escape? Maybe some did.

But again, it seems necessary to remember, man is the only species that see themselves as good enough to escape disaster without serious mercy being afforded by a Savior that saves, despite flaws, not because of their absence.

[:"red"] "If ye then, being evil , know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" [/] Matthew 7:11 KJV Bold mine LHC

[:"red"] "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" [/]

Matthew 19:17 KJV

It is not unheard of that even the vilest offender can sometimes be found doing good deeds, albeit for their own selfish interests.

[:"red"] "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." [/] 2 Cor 11:13-15 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

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melvin mccarty said:

Like the parable of the rich man and Lazurus it is not to be taken as literal or a portrayal of what God is like.

mel

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That reasoning then would also indicate that the final disposition of God toward Job, ie: Job's fortunes restored double and Job's being requested to pray for his "friends", also being allegorical, makes hypothetical that there is a God who works for the good of His servants accounted worthy, despite their own shortcomings!

And the point of the allegory is...?

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

God doesn't kill...

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[:"red"] "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

" [/] Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

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Shane said:

God was not punishing Job. The devil was afflicting Job. However through his affliction, God was trying to speak to Job and in the end did exactly that.

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And a lesson that comes down the ages to those who refuse to consider that God would ever be unjust.

[:"red"] "Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." [/] Hebrews 5:NASB

If Jesus were able to learn from suffering , why should it be so hard for we sinners to believe there is a lesson to be learned from every painful experience, especially if we believe God to be sovereign. Our Father either is sovereign in difficulties experienced by His children, or He is incapable of protecting us from the enemy of souls.And if we experience painful circumstances, even as servants of Mighty God, it is not without its' merits.

[:"red"] "Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying,So a curse without cause does not alight." [/] Proverbs 26:2 NASB

[:"red"] "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;And the government will rest on His shoulders;And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. " [/] Isaiah 9:6 NASB

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Shane said:

The term good is a relative term - not an absolute term. When someone says bad things happen to good people they are not refering to sinnless people that have no faults or defects of charachter.

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While that may be what we mean when we speak, when Jesus is the one speaking, what would we expect relative to mean in the following instance?

[:"red"] "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" [/] Matthew 7:1 KJV

This was spoken to Jesus' disciples by Jesus. If we recognize good deeds as a result of God's control in the life, we are able to be consistent in seeing ourselves as falling short while glorifying God in good deeds. Such was Job's blamelessness.

[:"red"] "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." [/] Phil 2:13 KJV

Blessings!!

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

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Robert said:

God doesn't kill...

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[:"red"] "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

" [/] Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV

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Please tell me "who done it?"

So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

Or

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

[olger]

Saul had already received a mortal wound from the Philistines (1 Samuel 31:3-5). Falling upon his own sword was an attempt to avoid being captured alive by the Philistines.

gcw

[Robert]

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olger said:

Saul had already received a mortal wound from the Philistines (1 Samuel 31:3-5). Falling upon his own sword was an attempt to avoid being captured alive by the Philistines.

gcw

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The point is, however, God didn't kill him!

[olger]

Hi Robert. Isn't God often represented as causing that which He did not prevent? Did God guide the stone that felled Goliath? Might He not have guided the arrow that found Saul? Regrettably, yes. But Saul chose the actions that ultimately led to these consequences.

Saul's story is a tragic account of the path of rebellion leading to the occult. If one person will be saved from the same by knowing his story, perhaps his death will not be in vain.

olger

[Robert]

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olger said:

Isn't God often represented as causing that which He did not prevent?

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Yes...but in the Day of Atonement "the blame for sin" will be placed where it truly belongs - on Satan!

God cannot force His love and care on individuals who stubbornly, persistently reject Him...such as Saul.

Rob