The Promise of the Land to Abraham and his Seed Genesis 13:14–15

[TrevorL]

The Promise of the Land to Abraham and his Seed Genesis 13:14–15

The following gives a summary of the Gospel that Philip and Paul preached:

Acts 8:5–12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 28:23-24,30–31 (KJV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

In both of the above, the gospel that they preached contained two major areas, the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ.

Part of this teaching includes the promise of the Land to Abraham and his seed:

Genesis 13:14–15 (KJV): And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: ¹⁵ For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Paul alludes to this promise of the land and other promises to Abraham in the following:

Galatians 3:8,16,26–29 (KJV): 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Thus he taught us that Christ and the believers would inherit the land that Abraham was called upon to view.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

The dimensions of the New Jerusalem, COVER the land area promised to Abraham's seed.   

So - essentially - the New Jerusalem is promised to Abraham's seed.   

[TrevorL]

Greetings 8thdaypriest,

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The dimensions of the New Jerusalem, COVER the land area promised to Abraham's seed.   

So - essentially - the New Jerusalem is promised to Abraham's seed.   

I assume that you are referring to the symbolic New Jerusalem in the Book of Revelation. The literal Jerusalem in Ezekiel 40-48 has been estimated by some as one mile square. This is the city restored and Temple that will be set up after the events of Ezekiel 38-39. This will be when Jesus returns soon to set up his Kingdom for 1000 years upon this earth. No earth burning and desolation and heaven going during this 1000 years, but Abraham and the faithful inheriting the promised land Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:26-29. This is an important aspect of the Apostolic Gospel.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:33 AM, TrevorL said:

The Promise of the Land to Abraham and his Seed Genesis 13:14–15

 

 

The following gives a summary of the Gospel that Philip and Paul preached:

 

 

Acts 8:5–12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

 

 

Acts 28:23-24,30–31 (KJV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

 

 

In both of the above, the gospel that they preached contained two major areas, the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ.

 

 

Part of this teaching includes the promise of the Land to Abraham and his seed:

 

 

Genesis 13:14–15 (KJV): And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: ¹⁵ For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

 

 

Paul alludes to this promise of the land and other promises to Abraham in the following:

 

 

Galatians 3:8,16,26–29 (KJV): 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

 

Thus he taught us that Christ and the believers would inherit the land that Abraham was called upon to view.

 

 

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

Abraham seed broke their promise to THE MOST HIGH and that is why you will not find Hebrew DNA today. Jews are NOT Abraham seed, Paul wrote to the Hebrews not to Jews. Have you read the curse, please read Deut 28:15-68. Then they themselves brought even a more outstanding curse: Let HIS BLOOD be on us and our children! They sealed their fate after the Temple was destroyed. Rome started their dispersement and the Ottoman Empire finished it. 

Before the Temple was destroyed, the Pharisees had already grew since the Babylonian captivity. They disputed YAHSHUA in every way until their false religion took over. The Rabbinic Judaic Religion is false, YAHWEH'S true faith was call Israel. It was removed and then in the middle ages the J symbol was created. The Ashkenazi themselves do not call themselves Israels or Hebrews. They come from Japheth and fulfill the prophecy found in Gen 9:27 that Noah prophesied that Japheth would dwell in the tents of Shem. It prove before Abraham that his seed would fail to be obedient to YAHWEH! They did not learn from the Canaanites who was give the truth first and fail. Then YAHWEH move to the Gentiles who are Japheth Children only not Shem or Ham's! They to have fail and from all nations will a remnant of 144,000 be call to finish the work and bring in the great multitude.

I do agree with Rachel because YAHWEH stated that Abraham will have others who will be from his seed by faith. The sons of Jacob names each will be on the gates except Dan. All saved will go through one of the gates from the sin they overcame like them.

We need to stop with this concept that one nation or people are greater then all others. That's why Peter was given his dream. Prejudice must be stop and all nations, tongue and people are all related from Adam! That's the true seed!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings stinsonmarri,

41 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Abraham seed broke their promise to THE MOST HIGH and that is why you will not find Hebrew DNA today.

Abraham's seed mentioned in Genesis 13:14-15 is interpreted by Paul in Galatians 3:16 to be our Lord Jesus Christ. I find the rest of your Post obscure and without answering the individual items of what you say, I find many of the suggestions a bit unusual. They seem to be spoken with authority, but most are marginal. Even the above about Hebrew DNA, I find preposterous. The Bible clearly speaks of the return of the Jews to the Holy Land in the latter days, Ezekiel 38 for example.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

20 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings stinsonmarri,

Abraham's seed mentioned in Genesis 13:14-15 is interpreted by Paul in Galatians 3:16 to be our Lord Jesus Christ. I find the rest of your Post obscure and without answering the individual items of what you say, I find many of the suggestions a bit unusual. They seem to be spoken with authority, but most are marginal. Even the above about Hebrew DNA, I find preposterous. The Bible clearly speaks of the return of the Jews to the Holy Land in the latter days, Ezekiel 38 for example.

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor: Gal 3:16 was fulfil when THE MESSIAH came through Abraham's seed.

For, doubtless, HE does not take hold of messengers, but HE does take hold of the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:16 TS2009

If you continue to read that YAHWEH kept HIS Promise to Abraham. Then you provided Eze. Chapter 38 but you must have forgotten YAHSHUA final prediction on Jerusalem:

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mat 23:37, 38 

Ezekiel was during the time of Babylon captivity and YAHWEH again was giving Israel a chance to repent and receive the blessing that would be given them. He had a vision of a Temple being build that would out rank Herod's Temple. However Israel did not remain faithful. Ever since the Babylonian captivity many did not return back to Israel. After Babylon, Persia, Greece then Rome and the Israelites were already spread all over the then known world. Act 2:7-11

Those in Jerusalem had YAHSHUA and this was proof but sadly the majority turned. Some return during the apostles; but after AD 70 and the rise of Rabbinic Judaism things changed.

The Bible does not lie and here is proof:

ELOHIYM shall enlarge, (? Please check the true meaning of the word enlarge.) Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. Gen 9:27 

The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.  And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. Gen 10:2, 3 

These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:  And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.  And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:   And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.  And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:  And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. Gen 11:10-14, 31 

Japheth had Gomer who had Ashkenaz, he was not Shem's son. The Jews admit that they are not the descendants of the Ancient Israelites in their writings. 

"Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew." (1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3).

Ashkenazi Jews are categorized as being from either “Central Europe” or the “Russian Empire.” To demonstrate how convoluted the relationships are, Jews from the Russian Empire are divided into three subgroups that inhabit the same geographic area: Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine, and Poland. This was the area ceded to the Russian Empire during the partitions of Poland in the late eighteenth century, referred to as “the Pale of Settlement.” To confuse things even further, the Central European Jewish communities overlap, to some degree, with those of the Russian Empire in Poland and Ukraine.  

Starting in the 12th century, Jews all over Europe endured waves of expulsion lasting into the 20th century. Distinct communities were forced out of the areas in which they had settled and intermixed with each other, according to Josh Perlman, a specialist in Jewish research who works on Janette’s team. A large number ended up in what was the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth; because that was one of the only places they were allowed to settle. The Ottoman Empire was the other major destination that accepted Jewish refugees. Ancestry.Com Blog

More recent studies of the distribution of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) which, like Judaism is passed along the maternal line indicate that Ashkenazi mtDNA is highly distinctive, with four major and numerous minor founders. All four founders, ~40% of Ashkenazi mtDNA variation, have ancestry in prehistoric Europe, rather than the Near East or Caucasus. Furthermore, most of the remaining minor founders, share a similar deep European ancestry. Thus, the great majority of Ashkenazi maternal lineages are assimilated within Europe. These results point to a significant role for horizontal phylogeneses due to the conversion of women in the formation of Ashkenazi communities in prehistoric Europe (Costa et al., 2013).

In the genealogies of the Hebrew Bible, Ashkenaz (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַז 'Aškănaz) was a descendant of Noah. He was the first son of Gomer and brother of Riphath and Togarmah (Genesis 10:3, 1 Chronicles 1:6), with Gomer being the grandson of Noah through Japheth. Ashkenaz – Wikipedia

 The latest such study, published today in the American Journal of Human Genetics, shows a genetic connection among all Jews, despite widespread migrations and intermarriage with non-Jews. It also apparently refutes repeated claims that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Central Europeans who converted to Judaism 1000 years ago.

. . . And historian Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University in Israel argues in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, translated into English last year, that most modern Jews do not descend from the ancient Land of Israel but from groups that took on Jewish identities long afterward. Tracing the Roots of Jewishness; 2018 American Association for the Advancement of Science

The Hebrew people were more intimately associated with the Hamitic races than with the descendants of Japheth. Cush, or Kush, is ancient Ethiopia, which was in classical times called Nubia. The SDA Bible Commentary Vol. 1, p. 273

As I have stated they cannot trace Hebrew or Israel, even the name is change to Jew or Israeli. They can only trace some of their DNA back to the Near East. The Medes and the Persian moved into the Near East and they both come from the Aryan people as did the Ashkenazi. They all came from Gomer and Iran and the Ashkenazi are related. Japheth children since the Medes and the Persian have dwell in the tents of Shem. So all the area even Egypt have Japheth bloodline, however they can prove that Afrikan blood can be trace as well. Greece took over Egypt and Persian and Rome change the people and the people of the  Near East by large dispersion.

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

 

21 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Gal 3:16 was fulfil when THE MESSIAH came through Abraham's seed.

Yes, Galatians 3:16 clearly states that Jesus is the true seed (singular) of Abraham.

22 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

If you continue to read that YAHWEH kept HIS Promise to Abraham.

Abraham and the faithful will receive the promise of the land when he is resurrected at the return of Jesus.

24 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

As I have stated they cannot trace Hebrew or Israel, even the name is change to Jew or Israeli.

I will leave the discussion of DNA and other speculation to others, but there is a partial return of the Jews to the land of Israel, the Holy Land in preparation for the events of Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14, which will culminate in the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for 1000 years, with Jesus reigning as King / Priest upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

Just now, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

 

Yes, Galatians 3:16 clearly states that Jesus is the true seed (singular) of Abraham.

Abraham and the faithful will receive the promise of the land when he is resurrected at the return of Jesus.

I will leave the discussion of DNA and other speculation to others, but there is a partial return of the Jews to the land of Israel, the Holy Land in preparation for the events of Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14, which will culminate in the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for 1000 years, with Jesus reigning as King / Priest upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Revelation 7 you will not find the 12 tribes of Israel. Dan is missing, Israel means to overcome. I am grafted into the branch. YAHWEH never called them Jews, HE said Israel. I am a part of Israel because I overcame just like Jacob and Eleven of his sons and one of his grandsons. 

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

[stinsonmarri]

22 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

 

Yes, Galatians 3:16 clearly states that Jesus is the true seed (singular) of Abraham.

Abraham and the faithful will receive the promise of the land when he is resurrected at the return of Jesus.

I will leave the discussion of DNA and other speculation to others, but there is a partial return of the Jews to the land of Israel, the Holy Land in preparation for the events of Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14, which will culminate in the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for 1000 years, with Jesus reigning as King / Priest upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Trevor; we can forget about the DNA, but  we cannot forget Gen 9:27. The Jews is not from Abraham seed. Nor is what they call today Rabbinic Judaism is what YAHWEH'S gave to Abraham seed, their faith was in the name IsraEL not Israeli. Ashkenazi came from Gomer, the son of Japheth. Ebner came from Shem. No matter how you twist it, cut it, swallow it, hold on to it. It is the facts, I lived in Israel they themselves said they are not Hebrews from Ebner and they are right. Find a Hebrew today! Paul wrote a book called Hebrew and not Jew. Paul did not used the word Jew because the J was not invented until the middle Ages. The disciples and apostles call themselves THE WAY! History proves that, however people want to believe what they want regardless of the facts. So if you choose not to believe the facts that your right!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

On 8/25/2018 at 12:29 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Revelation 7 you will not find the 12 tribes of Israel. Dan is missing, Israel means to overcome.

I believe that the sealing of the 12 tribes in Revelation 7 is symbolic language like much of the Book of Revelation. Abraham is still promised the land and he will receive it when he is raised from the dead at the return of Jesus.

On 8/26/2018 at 10:39 AM, stinsonmarri said:

Trevor; we can forget about the DNA, but  we cannot forget Gen 9:27.

I cannot support your theory.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

15 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

I believe that the sealing of the 12 tribes in Revelation 7 is symbolic language like much of the Book of Revelation. Abraham is still promised the land and he will receive it when he is raised from the dead at the return of Jesus.

 

 

I cannot support your theory.

 

 

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

Greeting to you Trevor. Revelation 7 was not symbolic because they are alive standing around the Throne of ELOHIYM:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of ELOHIYM, and have the Testimony of YAHSHUA. Rev 12:17 

And I looked, and, lo, A LAMB stood on the Mount Zion, and with HIM an hundred forty and four thousand, having HIS NAME and HIS FATHER NAME written in their foreheads. And I heard a VOICE from Heaven, as THE VOICE of Many Waters, and as THE VOICE of a Great Thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow THE LAMB whither soever HE goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the Firstfruits unto ELOHIYM and to THE LAMB.  And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault. Rev 14:1-5 

 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, ELOHIYM shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, ELOHIYM shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev 22:18, 19 

Please I do not want you to believe in anything that I have provided. I provided it for you to search and examine it. Check out the sources that is why I provide them. However, it must be with prayer and an open mind and a sincere mind as well. That means you must allow THE HOLY SPIRIT to lead you into all truth. Definitely not me! I am a sinner saved by grace and I am not THE HOLY SPIRIT, or THE MOST HIGH. Everyone must make up in their own mind. If you choose it to be a theory that's fine with me. I am not your judge, we both have to stand before THE JUDGE for ourselves. It is THE MOST HIGH that will provide if it is a theory or not!

Blessings!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Revelation 7 was not symbolic because they are alive standing around the Throne of ELOHIYM

The 144,000 in Revelation 14:1 is a symbolic number for ALL the redeemed, not a literal number as claimed by the JWs who subdivide the redeemed (or partially redeemed) into two classes. The four living creatures are also symbolic of all the redeemed and are the new cherubim, replacing the angelic or symbolic cherubim depicted at various times in the OT. May God the Father and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ help to guide you to a better understanding of these things. My impression is that you have many concepts that seem valid and that you may attribute to Holy Spirit guidance, but they are not accurate. There is no mention of ELOHIYM in Revelation 12:17 as this is a Hebrew word. What translation are you using?

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

19 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

 

 

The 144,000 in Revelation 14:1 is a symbolic number for ALL the redeemed, not a literal number as claimed by the JWs who subdivide the redeemed (or partially redeemed) into two classes. The four living creatures are also symbolic of all the redeemed and are the new cherubim, replacing the angelic or symbolic cherubim depicted at various times in the OT. May God the Father and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ help to guide you to a better understanding of these things. My impression is that you have many concepts that seem valid and that you may attribute to Holy Spirit guidance, but they are not accurate. There is no mention of ELOHIYM in Revelation 12:17 as this is a Hebrew word. What translation are you using?

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

As I said the Bible does not say that. You are, prove it! Show where the Bible says it. I show that they were people. Now you prove that it says they were symbolic!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

As I said the Bible does not say that. You are, prove it! Show where the Bible says it. I show that they were people. Now you prove that it says they were symbolic!

Revelation 14:1–5 (KJV): 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I am a bit reticent to get involved in a full discussion on the many aspects of the Book of Revelation as I suggest we both would have different perspectives on many items. Looking at the above, the 144,000 are depicted as being the disciples of Jesus, the Lamb and worshipers of God His Father. Unless you believe that there are 144,000 and then another large group of redeemed separate from this group, then they represent all the redeemed.

Even in this vision there appears to be other elements that are symbolic. Jesus is called “a Lamb” and it also speaks of “the four beasts and the elders” and I suggested that these four beasts are symbolic creatures. You did not respond to this element, but consider where they were introduced:

Revelation 4:6–9 (KJV): 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

These four beasts here in Revelation 4 have elements of the cherubim and seraphim revealed in the OT, but there are some differences. Unless you believe that there are creatures with different heads, and Ezekiel 1 gives cherubim with four heads each, then I suggest that these are symbolic creatures.

Another aspect of understanding the 144,000 is based on how you understand the 7 Seals and then the 7 Trumpets and what seems to be a brief period of time between these Seals and Trumpets when the 144,000 are sealed. I have a tentative view on this, but I am fairly sure that you would have a different perspective. I suggest that the 144,000 (and this is not a literal number) are sealed in this specific period, but they are then used as typical of all the redeemed in Revelation 14. When we agree on the 7 Seals and the 7 Trumpets, then we may make some progress on the 144,000.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings The Wanderer,

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I have never heard of "The Apostolic gospel." I have only heard of The Gospel Of Jesus Christ."

You are correct, it is the gospel of Jesus Christ. I was using the expression Apostolic gospel (possibly a wrong term) to indicate the gospel that the Apostles preached. For example it speaks of Philip the Evangelist preaching to the Samaritans and Paul the Apostle preaching when in Rome:

Acts 8:5-6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 28: 23-24,30-31 (KJV): 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24  And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, 31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

 

I also believe that there is one gospel, and it was first preached in Eden as Genesis 3:15 is a summary of the gospel. Additional details of the gospel were given in the promises to Abraham and David. The full details of the gospel are revealed as a result of the death and resurrection of Jesus and the salvation available through him.

 

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

There would not even be enough room in an area of just "one square mile" for everyone to fit.

You are confusing the city of Jerusalem with the Holy Land which will be greater than the State of Israel is today. Abraham was invited to look north, south, east and west, as he would inherit all the land he could see.

 

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

The Jewish covenant, the sign of which was circumcision (as revealed in Galatians), is annulled

The promises to Abraham form the basis of the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was given through Moses.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

16 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

Revelation 14:1–5 (KJV): 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I am a bit reticent to get involved in a full discussion on the many aspects of the Book of Revelation as I suggest we both would have different perspectives on many items. Looking at the above, the 144,000 are depicted as being the disciples of Jesus, the Lamb and worshipers of God His Father. Unless you believe that there are 144,000 and then another large group of redeemed separate from this group, then they represent all the redeemed.

Even in this vision there appears to be other elements that are symbolic. Jesus is called “a Lamb” and it also speaks of “the four beasts and the elders” and I suggested that these four beasts are symbolic creatures. You did not respond to this element, but consider where they were introduced:

Revelation 4:6–9 (KJV): 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

These four beasts here in Revelation 4 have elements of the cherubim and seraphim revealed in the OT, but there are some differences. Unless you believe that there are creatures with different heads, and Ezekiel 1 gives cherubim with four heads each, then I suggest that these are symbolic creatures.

Another aspect of understanding the 144,000 is based on how you understand the 7 Seals and then the 7 Trumpets and what seems to be a brief period of time between these Seals and Trumpets when the 144,000 are sealed. I have a tentative view on this, but I am fairly sure that you would have a different perspective. I suggest that the 144,000 (and this is not a literal number) are sealed in this specific period, but they are then used as typical of all the redeemed in Revelation 14. When we agree on the 7 Seals and the 7 Trumpets, then we may make some progress on the 144,000.

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

My dear Trevor: We were talking about the 144,000, however I see that you are not familiar with translation and transliteration. THE LAMB is symbolic and I was not referring to it specifically but that's fine. 

The sacrificing of a lamb was always a symbol of YAHSHUA who would become the ULTIMATE Sacrifice! So John explains very clear who THE LAMB he was talking about!

The next day John seeth YAHSHUA coming unto him, and saith, Behold THE LAMB of ELOHIYM, which taketh away the sin of the world. And looking upon YAHSHUA as HE Walked, he saith, Behold THE LAMB of ELOHIYM John 1:29, 36 

The four beast is in error in the KJV and few of the other versions. Most of the versions provides the correct word creatures. So they are not symbolic and as you stated the scene in Ezekiel Chapter One was a total different Throne it had wheels and the creatures were cherubim. Cherubim have four wings they had four faces to ELOHIYM and humans who have one face. The Throne that John saw was in the Temple in the MOST HOLY PLACE. It appear to be a Throne mainly for this place and it had angels around it as well, they were seraphim angels who have six wings but they are made up the same way as the cherubim with four faces. One face side was an ox, the other face side was an eagle, the other face side was a lion and final the other the face side like a man. As I stated these were not symbolic they were angels of two different ranks! 

I am surprise you mention the elders because these are human beings, they return to Heaven with YAHSHUA!

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,  And came out of the graves after HIS Resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Mat 27:52 53 

Like Enoch, Moses and Elijah other saints were resurrected and taken to Heaven to show proof that YAHSHUA is THE LIFE and HE brings LIFE back to HIS faithful ones. Again this is not symbolic!

You stated, "You did not respond to this element, but consider where they were introduced:"

No I did not respond because we weren't discussing these things. Your topic was on Israel; actually on the Jews being Israel! Where does it say that the 144,000 was not literal? If this was so the Bible would have indicated this.

John stated to us these words:

The Revelation of YAHSHUA THE MESSIAH, which ELOHIYM gave unto HIM, to show unto HIS servants things which must shortly come to pass; and HE sent and signified it by HIS angel unto HIS servant John: Rev 1:1

Were there some symbolic things presented in Revelation yes, but it also provides the clues in detail who and what these symbols represent. YAHWEH is not going to leave us ignorant on any part of the Bible. Men who beliefs differ from truth will. That is why the warning was giving not add or to subtract from YAHWEH'S Word. Men has, the Bible has been tamper with and changed that why we have so many denominations and non denominations. That's why you believe in a Jew thinking he is a Hebrew due to lies and mishaps. But truth will always conquer lies. We use animals ourselves for symbols like the eagle and the buffalo. Every country, empire, kingdom has done since one begin. But we know what they mean!

Prejudice is awful and Peter had to learn this, because he did not feel that the Greeks were equal to Israel. Why like you, they felt they were the only chosen people. This was not true! Today sadly many not all of the White people have the same problem with other skin colors. Prejudice is to think that YAHWEH chose one tribe of people over everyone else in this world. HE DID NOT! HE SAID that HIS House would be for all people. HE told Peter not call what HE created unclean and uncommon like unclean animals. That HE did call unclean! HE is no respect of persons. So now all of a sudden the 144,000 who are not Jews or Hebrew are not literal! Wrong! They are people of all nations, kindred, and tongues that will finish the exact Gospel. They are seal first to do what HE YAHWEH wanted from the Adams to Noah, from Nimrod to the Canaanites from Abraham to Moses, from the prophets to YAHSHUA, from the apostles to us today. Through out the ages, HE call all men and most of them rejected HIM. HE sent HIS SON, and the Hebrew or Israel rejected HIM and put HIM to death. Matter of fact we all have! Truth will triumph, victory will win and all human beings will know who YAHWEH is and not a Jew!

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Through out the ages, HE call all men and most of them rejected HIM. HE sent HIS SON, and the Hebrew or Israel rejected HIM and put HIM to death. Matter of fact we all have! Truth will triumph, victory will win and all human beings will know who YAHWEH is and not a Jew!

]

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Colossians 3:11

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

14 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

they were seraphim angels who have six wings but they are made up the same way as the cherubim with four faces. One face side was an ox, the other face side was an eagle, the other face side was a lion and final the other the face side like a man. As I stated these were not symbolic they were angels of two different ranks! 

I do not believe that God has created beings with four different heads each. They are symbolic of the character needed to be developed in each of us, and what has been fully revealed in Jesus as King (lion), Servant (ox), Priest (man) and Son of God (eagle).

My OP is teaching that Abraham and the believers will be resurrected to inherit the Land. I also believe that Israel will be the first mortal dominion of the Kingdom Micah 4:8 and other mortal nations will be other dominions subject to Jesus and the resurrected faithful immortals during the 1000 years.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/24/2018 at 12:15 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings stinsonmarri,

Abraham's seed mentioned in Genesis 13:14-15 is interpreted by Paul in Galatians 3:16 to be our Lord Jesus Christ. I find the rest of your Post obscure and without answering the individual items of what you say, I find many of the suggestions a bit unusual. They seem to be spoken with authority, but most are marginal. Even the above about Hebrew DNA, I find preposterous. The Bible clearly speaks of the return of the Jews to the Holy Land in the latter days, Ezekiel 38 for example.

Kind regards Trevor

It would take too long to explain my position on this in a post.  In short - I believe that Satan will orchestrate his masterpiece of deception,  to make the world believe that he is Christ returned.  The "return" of Jews to their ancestral homeland - which began back in the 1920's,  is part of his deception.   Jews from Russia who were Communist and without any belief in God,  "returned" - just to have a homeland where they would not be persecuted.  

I believe Ezekiel's Temple will be the Temple of the 8th millennium (not the 7th).   The "rest of the dead" will be resurrected, then taught and governed by "priests of God and of Christ" (people who are saved and made immortal at the SC).    This being the case, it does not preclude Satan pulling off his own scenario (plagues, Israel saved, restored Temple and all)  to bring the people of earth to bow down to him (thinking he is Jesus returned).  

The OT term "latter days" is also applied to things that will happen AFTER the SC.  

[8thdaypriest]

The following are links to a few studies on this topic :

TEMPLES of YAHWEH     -     https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/28-ISRAEL.htm

Who are Israel?    -    https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/18b-Israel-Part II - Who are Israel.htm

Another Temple   -   https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/18c-Israel-Part III - Another Temple.htm

Masterpiece of Deception   -   https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/18d-Israel-Part IV - Masterpiece of Deception.htm

[8thdaypriest]

Salvation is about FAITH - not DNA.   

No one will be saved, or govern the world, because they have a bit of Abraham's DNA.   

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest),

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe that Satan will orchestrate his masterpiece of deception,  to make the world believe that he is Christ returned.

I suggest that those with this view may be in danger of actually opposing Jesus Christ when he returns. A correct understanding starting with Daniel 7 will help to identify who will oppose Christ at his return, and dispel the danger of becoming associated with the Anti-Christ. The NT develops Daniel 7, but in contrast the suggestion that Anti-Christ will rule from Jerusalem was started by a Jesuit to repel the insistence during the Reformation that the Papacy system is the Anti-Christ. Today most Protestants endorse this Jesuit teaching.

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

believe Ezekiel's Temple will be the Temple of the 8th millennium (not the 7th).

Your view ignores the process of transition mentioned in Ezekiel 38-40, and from the kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God clearly revealed in many other prophecies, for example Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8 and Zechariah 14.

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Salvation is about FAITH - not DNA.   

No one will be saved, or govern the world, because they have a bit of Abraham's DNA.

Yes, it is about faith, but God will also deal with the nations when Jesus returns. The initial promise to Abraham not only mentions “a great nation”, but also “all the families of the earth”, that is the rest of the nations.

Genesis 12:1–3 (KJV): 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Part of the development of the promises to Abraham are the promises concerning the land:

Genesis 12:7 (KJV): 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 13:14–15 (KJV): 14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

All of these promises involve faith and we need to believe rather than ignore the detail.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/30/2018 at 7:36 AM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

I do not believe that God has created beings with four different heads each. They are symbolic of the character needed to be developed in each of us, and what has been fully revealed in Jesus as King (lion), Servant (ox), Priest (man) and Son of God (eagle).

 

 

My OP is teaching that Abraham and the believers will be resurrected to inherit the Land. I also believe that Israel will be the first mortal dominion of the Kingdom Micah 4:8 and other mortal nations will be other dominions subject to Jesus and the resurrected faithful immortals during the 1000 years.

 

 

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

Dear Trevor: I never said four heads, I said four faces one head! If you notice we have cheeks on each side of our face, they don't they have a face of an animal on each side and one in the back. You and I have never seen all four of their faces at one time. However the ancient people did and they saw an angel as a lion with wings and an eagle with wings. If you notice from ancient times up to now most pagan deities was always an ox and the Hindus thinks cows are sacred today. European in Europe and when they move to and form USA along with other nation also the Indians all believe in a demon that looks like an red huge long horned ox beast. Now where do you think they get this from? Why of course Satan who change even to an angel of light. However, he loves to appear as well like his other features (side of his faces) for fear. The good angels always show their man faces with radiance that men that saw them, bowed and try to worship them. Gabriel told them that he was a fellowman like them. They all have men faces and gender is male as well.

You know you give these example without Bible verses. Just like Watchman Nee and Witness Lee the writers of Life Study of Ezekiel. The first text Gen 49:9 was referring to Judah and yes the lion always symbolize kingship. But Rev 5:5 was not referring to YAHSHUA coming through Judah who the promise to David that HE would have the honor. Joseph was through the line of Judah and he married Mary and adopted YAHSHUA. YAHSHUA did not come through the blood of Judah or of man and my friend I think you should try to understand that. That is why HE is call THE SECOND ADAM!!!! HE could not have contaminated blood that had sin. HE had to be PERFECT just like the original Adam!

Rev 5:5 the elder stated to John the same promise to David that YAHSHUA symbolically came by Joseph through the line of Judah who is call the lion. YAHSHUA was not!! The next verses proves it!

And I saw, and behold, in the midst of the Throne, and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, was A LAMB Standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven SPIRITS of ELOHIYM, having been sent out into all the earth. Rev 5:6 

Now before you say that the other information giving were symbolic, yes it is and the Bible gives the actual meanings to the symbols. However, we are staying on the subject. However the book gives two other Scriptures; Mark 10:45 and Philippians 4:11-12 that does not say anything about an ox or an eagle. Man's interpretation, when the Bible clearly states not to add or subtract from the Bible. It also states that the Bible does not have any PRIVATE interpretation.

I never said that the land will not use by YAHSHUA. Matter of fact Zachariah clearly states that the Mount of Olive will be touch by HIS FEET when HE returns with the saints after the 1,000 years. Mount Olive will be plain because the old Jerusalem will be destroyed, the whore and her daughters will be there. That is why symbolically it is call Babylon. It will be destroy in the battle of Armageddon by the beast and the rest of the world. The false prophet will make fire which is symbolic of a Nuclear bomb that will wipe out  the unholy Jerusalem and an angel will finish by casting the city into the sea using a millstone! It will be remove to make way for the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to take her rightful place with the saints within. So I know that this land will be restored. It was originally Eden and rest of it is in the Mediterranean Sea!

This has always been YAHWEH'S Land; Melchizedek; a Canaanite a descendant from Ham, was THE MOST HIGH King and Priest. He was whom Abraham paid tithe too! The Canaanites had their chance to witness, it then went to Abraham and Japheth also has been in the land as prophesied. So all three sons of Noah had the land and did not appreciate it. YAHWEH is no respect of person. THE SECOND ADAM will restore it to its rightful OWNERS and we will be ever with YAHWEH, THE FATHER, YAHSHUA THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT our COMFORTER who has lead the seal saints into all truth! Amen!

Happy Sabbath!

 

[stinsonmarri]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

IF one wanted to get technical, I guess we could say that everyone has a bit of DNA from Abraham.

We today do not have the DNA of Abraham. I came from Ham, you came from Japheth. The DNA is not important for salvation. I brought it up to prove the Bible does not lie. You cannot find Hebrew DNA today if so will any of you please provide the proof! All you will get is Near East that's it! I took my DNA and I am from several African countries, also Chinese and three Europeans countries. They cannot do it for the Near East concerning the Hebrews. The Jews are not Hebrews they are Ashkenazi's. The Hebrew begin to mix with many different nations starting with the Canaanites also Egypt (these are Ham's children), then the Babylonian captivity (the city had the original Blacks, Assyrians, Chaldeans and more cultures), then Persia (had the Elamites who were mix with Cushites and Elamites and Assyrians. Then Aryans both Medes and Perse who are related to the German Ashkenazi plus Israel or Hebrews ), Greece (called Gentiles or Greeks and then other nations plus the Hebrews), Roman's (the Latin's who mix with the colonize Greeks over the centuries and other nations plus the Hebrews). How many of you have taken a DNA test and actually know how it works? How many of you have studied the people of ancient history and their migration also cultures. Please read it! It in the Bible and outside sources, all of this will truly help you to understand things a lot better. Read Acts 2

Happy Sabbath and be Bless!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

7 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I never said four heads, I said four faces one head!

Yes, I made a mistake and you are correct. They did not have four heads each. But I suggest that each of the Cherubim in Ezekiel 1 had four faces, and most attempted sketches seem to indicate this. What surprises me is that despite this fact it appears that you still believe that these are literal creatures, some order of Angels. Each cherubim had four different faces, the faces of a lion, an ox, an eagle and a man. While in Revelation 4 there are again four Living Creatures, but this time they had only one face each, one with a lion face, others with an ox face, an eagle face and a man face. Are you suggesting that these are another species of Angels distinct from Ezekiel 1”? Both records speak about numerous eyes independent of the faces, but in different positions. What is the significance of having calves’ feet? The number of wings are different, four compared to six, while the Seraphim in Isaiah 6 had six wings. Seeing that you have strong opinions on some subjects, could you suggest the difference between the Cherubim and the Seraphim? Have you worked out the meaning of these two titles? Could you also explain why with the six wings in Isaiah 6, two cover the face, two cover the feet and two are used to fly?

7 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

YAHSHUA did not come through the blood of Judah or of man and my friend I think you should try to understand that. That is why HE is call THE SECOND ADAM!!!! HE could not have contaminated blood that had sin. HE had to be PERFECT just like the original Adam!

I believe that Jesus was a descendant of David through Mary his mother. He partook of our flesh and blood so that he could overcome sin in all its aspects.

Luke 1:30–33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Acts 2:29–32 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Romans 1:1–4 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

7 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Man's interpretation, when the Bible clearly states not to add or subtract from the Bible. It also states that the Bible does not have any PRIVATE interpretation.

I disagree that 2 Peter 1:19-21 is speaking of “private interpretation”. I believe that this is speaking about origination, that what the prophets spoke was from the Holy Spirit, not their own thoughts.

7 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I never said that the land will not use by YAHSHUA. Matter of fact Zachariah clearly states that the Mount of Olive will be touch by HIS FEET when HE returns with the saints after the 1,000 years

I believe that Jesus will return and stand on the Mount of Olives as the beginning of the 1000 years as Zechariah 14 and other prophecies such as Isaiah 2:1-4, Ezekiel 39-40 speak of the transition from the present kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God. 

7 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

This has always been YAHWEH'S Land; Melchizedek; a Canaanite a descendant from Ham, was THE MOST HIGH King and Priest

Could you please quote a Scripture that tells us that Melchizedek was a descendant of Ham?

Kind regards Trevor