The Promise of the Land to Abraham and his Seed Genesis 13:14–15

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I suggest that those with this view may be in danger of actually opposing Jesus Christ when he returns.

And I would suggest that those holding your view, may be in danger of actually worshiping Satan.

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/24/2018 at 9:24 PM, TrevorL said:

there is a partial return of the Jews to the land of Israel, the Holy Land in preparation for the events of Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 14, which will culminate in the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth for 1000 years, with Jesus reigning as King / Priest upon the throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

One is NOT part of "Israel" because he is "Jewish".   Only those who serve Jesus as Lord, are Israel.   Only those attached to "the Tree" of Romans 11, are Israel.   Most were "broken off" because of unbelief.  Yes - I know - they can be "grafted in again".  But I don't believe the Lord will accept a sudden massive conversion when Jesus returns gloriously, not after they had the testimony about Jesus available to them for almost 2000 years.  

Messianic Judaism was recently acknowledged as a branch of Judaism in the present nation called Israel, but it is a very small group.   Only a small percent of citizens of (geopolitical) Israel even believe that "God" exists.  Only a tiny fraction of those believe in Jesus as Messiah.  

[8thdaypriest]

I am familiar with Joel Richardson and others teaching similar prophetic interpretation.  So I think I understand where you're coming from.  You can correct my errors.

Where you and I agree, (I think) is that Christ will reign on the earth for 1000 years.   Israel - as a kingdom of kings and priests - will govern the world, under Christ as High King and High Priest.  

You believe this will take place during the 7th millennium.   I believe this will take place during the 8th millennium.  

We both believe there will be 7 last plagues - the vial/bowl plagues.   I believe those plagues will be universal.  You most likely believe they will affect only "the land" area promised to Abraham.  

You most likely believe that Christ and Israel will rule over those people who survive the last plagues.  

I believe that no one - left on the earth after the SC - will survive the last plagues.   All the heavens will be rolled up like a worn out tent (Hebrews 1:10-12).  The heavens "will perish".   Everything necessary for human life will be gone - clean water, vegetation,  oxygen (made by plants and sea algae).  

I believe Christ and redeemed Israel will govern those people who are raised as "the rest of the dead" 1000 AFTER the SC.  There is no reason for "priests of God and of Christ",  if there will be no one to govern, or teach, or mediate for. 

I believe "the rest of the dead" will be those who lived and died in ignorance, because of immaturity, or disability, or circumstance (unreached pagans).  

I believe the wicked (those who resisted the Spirit,  and fought against the Lord and His people) will be resurrected at the SC, to be judged and then executed.   They will be raised "to shame and everlasting condemnation (Daniel 12:2-3).   Once executed, they will never again be raised to conscious life.   What God has retained of them (soul, spirit, mind - choose your term)  will be destroyed forever in the Lake of Fire following the final judgment event, which will follow the Gog/Magog Battle.  

Studies on all of this can be found on my website, prophecyviewpoint.com, under the link to "The 8th Day" studies.  

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 8thdaypriest,

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

And I would suggest that those holding your view, may be in danger of actually worshiping Satan.

I accept your comment but both of us will need to wait for these events to unfold if we do not properly consider the prophetic evidence.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

One is NOT part of "Israel" because he is "Jewish".   Only those who serve Jesus as Lord, are Israel.   Only those attached to "the Tree" of Romans 11, are Israel.   Most were "broken off" because of unbelief.  Yes - I know - they can be "grafted in again".  But I don't believe the Lord will accept a sudden massive conversion when Jesus returns gloriously, not after they had the testimony about Jesus available to them for almost 2000 years. 

I believe that Jesus will convert a significant remnant of natural Israel on his return as a result of the events of Armageddon. He will also subdue and convert all the nations after this as depicted in Isaiah 2:1-4. The Gentiles have had Christ revealed for 2000 years, but few have accepted the true Gospel of Christ in that time.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I am familiar with Joel Richardson and others teaching similar prophetic interpretation.  So I think I understand where you're coming from.

I am unfamiliar with Joel Richardson, but I am willing to compare my understanding with your assessments.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Where you and I agree, (I think) is that Christ will reign on the earth for 1000 years.   Israel - as a kingdom of kings and priests - will govern the world, under Christ as High King and High Priest.

I believe that spiritual Israel will rule with Christ, and these will be the resurrected faithful drawn from 6000 years. They will be immortal. Converted natural Israel will be the first dominion, and the other nations will be other dominions. All of these will be mortal during the 1000 years.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You believe this will take place during the 7th millennium.   I believe this will take place during the 8th millennium.  

Yes, correct assessment of my position. You are the only person that I have encountered with the 8th Millennium view.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

We both believe there will be 7 last plagues - the vial/bowl plagues.   I believe those plagues will be universal.  You most likely believe they will affect only "the land" area promised to Abraham.  

I believe that the seven last plagues or vials or bowls of Revelation 16 relate to the areas of Europe and the Middle East, and that we are presently in the midst of the 6th Bowl, the drying of the Euphrates and the anticipated return of Jesus. One last aspect of the drying of the Euphrates is that I believe, that Russia, the king of the North will invade Turkey. The events in Syria, and even the Idlib Province could be preparing or a precursor for this event.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You most likely believe that Christ and Israel will rule over those people who survive the last plagues. 

There are further judgements after the 6th Bowl and some of this involves the judgement mentioned in Revelation 17, where the Antichrist, the Papacy and 10 Kings will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe that no one - left on the earth after the SC - will survive the last plagues.   All the heavens will be rolled up like a worn out tent (Hebrews 1:10-12).  The heavens "will perish".   Everything necessary for human life will be gone - clean water, vegetation,  oxygen (made by plants and sea algae). 

I disagree. Some of this is figurative language.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe Christ and redeemed Israel will govern those people who are raised as "the rest of the dead" 1000 AFTER the SC.  There is no reason for "priests of God and of Christ",  if there will be no one to govern, or teach, or mediate for. 

I agree that the normal SDA view is lacking here as the faithful will be kings and priests during the 1000 years, but I cannot accept the 1000 years of desolation, when all the prophecies indicate a process of transformation from the Kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God. I cannot understand how you can understand all this detail Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Joel 3:1-2, Daniel 2:35,44, Daniel 11:40-45, 12:1-3, Zechariah 14 and many other prophecies.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe "the rest of the dead" will be those who lived and died in ignorance, because of immaturity, or disability, or circumstance (unreached pagans). 

I believe now is the day of salvation and that the rest of the dead speaks of those who die during the 1000 years.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe the wicked (those who resisted the Spirit,  and fought against the Lord and His people) will be resurrected at the SC, to be judged and then executed.   They will be raised "to shame and everlasting condemnation (Daniel 12:2-3).   Once executed, they will never again be raised to conscious life.   What God has retained of them (soul, spirit, mind - choose your term)  will be destroyed forever in the Lake of Fire following the final judgment event, which will follow the Gog/Magog Battle. 

I agree that some not all of the wicked will be resurrected at the return of Christ Daniel 12:2-3. Once judged and rejected they will in a relatively short time suffer death and return to the dust. Ezekiel 38 is before the 1000 years, while Revelation 20 Gog/Magog is at the end of the 1000 years, two different battles.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

10 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Ezekiel 38 is before the 1000 years, while Revelation 20 Gog/Magog is at the end of the 1000 years, two different battles.

I agree, there will be TWO different battles.  The first (before the 7th millennium) will be a counterfeit (for the second), orchestrated by Satan to deceive "the elect" (Christians) into believing that he is Christ returned.  He will appear to "deliver" Israel.  

The second/final Battle of Gog and Magog will take place just before the end of the 8th millennium.   At that time Christ will be reigning from Jerusalem.   Satan will deceive many from "the nations" into that rebellion against the reign of Christ.  

"The nations" will be those raised second - 1000 years AFTER the SC. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest),

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I agree, there will be TWO different battles.  The first (before the 7th millennium) will be a counterfeit (for the second), orchestrated by Satan to deceive "the elect" (Christians) into believing that he is Christ returned.  He will appear to "deliver" Israel.

I suggest that you read Ezekiel chapters 38-40 again.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 9/1/2018 at 12:56 AM, The Wanderer said:

I wasnt making a theological statement with the DNA comment. Your post presumes to know what my beliefs are regarding "important for salvation," I certainly gave no indication that this is how I think of it. Nice speech tho.

I cannot read your thoughts only what you wrote. I was the one that brought DNA to this forum and I did not presume on your beliefs because I never mention your name or anyone else. To be honest you presume on me because of what I brought up! I wrote from my perspective and not yours or anyone. I do not accept theology as most do. Theology comes from from Greek theologia  meaning an account of the gods of Olympia. I do not relate it to the Bible that was written by Holy men who were inspired by THE HOLY SPIRIT. I will say again I do not say what others believe, I present that is it. All of us have to make our own choices we have free will. That's how we were created, so I or no one else has a right to infringe on what you believe. However, since I was the one who brought in the DNA and you stated "technically we all have Abraham's DNA", I disagree with your statement and that had nothing to do with what you believe. If you felt that way I am sorry.

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 9/1/2018 at 8:06 AM, TrevorL said:

Both records speak about numerous eyes independent of the faces, but in different positions. What is the significance of having calves’ feet? The number of wings are different, four compared to six, while the Seraphim in Isaiah 6 had six wings. Seeing that you have strong opinions on some subjects, could you suggest the difference between the Cherubim and the Seraphim? Have you worked out the meaning of these two titles? Could you also explain why with the six wings in Isaiah 6, two cover the face, two cover the feet and two are used to fly?

I disagree that 2 Peter 1:19-21 is speaking of “private interpretation”. I believe that this is speaking about origination, that what the prophets spoke was from the Holy Spirit, not their own thoughts.

 I believe that Jesus was a descendant of David through Mary his mother. He partook of our flesh and blood so that he could overcome sin in all its aspects.

Could you please quote a Scripture that tells us that Melchizedek was a descendant of Ham?

Where do you get another species Trevor, they are angels. You mention cherubim and seraphim and I agree. However cherubim have four wings.

Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.  And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.  And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. Eze 1:5-8 

These angels are creatures which simply means they are created beings. However, they are spiritual beings we are not, we are flesh!

For unto which of the angels said HE at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?  And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, HE saith, and let all the angels of ELOHIYM worship HIM.   And of the angels HE saith, who maketh HIS angels spirits, and HIS ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:5-7 WOY

The different between the two type of angels are their rank! Let see have you figure how you have a brain that makes you think, or a bumble bee that haves a huge body with wings that can fly? Can you figure how an ant can lift more then his weight or a frog changes gender? Now you question me on the creative powers of ELOHIYM, that my friend I cannot answer. Have you read Job Chapter 38, if not you should. The Bible clearly states that YAHWEH creates for HIS PLEASURE not mine or yours! What I know that everything that has been created is wonderfully made and I do not question THE MOST HIGH, nor HIS SON, nor THE HOLY SPIRIT, I just obey and praise ELOHIYM for HIS GOODNESS and MERCY.  I do not speculate beyond what the Bible provides. I neither add nor subtract, I just accept!

Private in the Strong Greek Dictionary means: Pertaining to self, that is, one's own. So I agree and that means you need to understand what was written. If you and I come to a stop sign we should stop and not pause-simple. You nor I need to say what it means, it will provide its meaning itself. "Line upon line precept upon precept, here little there a little."  Subjects or thoughts in the Bible are in other books of the Bible and they will come together to explain what is meant. We do no come up with what it means, it explains without our help. The Bible says to seek knowledge and understanding!

I respect your believe, but in order for Mary to conceive a child, she had to have sex and she did not.

The virgin birth of Jesus is the belief that Jesus was conceived in the womb of his mother Mary through the Holy Spirit without the agency of a human father and born while Mary was still a virgin. Wikipedia

And the birth of YAHSHUA MESSIAH was this way (for HIS mother Mariam had been betrothed to Joseph) before the coming together of them, she was found having babe in womb by THE HOLY SPIRIT. Mat 1:18

The Scriptures you provided did not state anything about blood!

Trevor I cannot question your belief, but this is what the Bibles says and I accept what it says:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of YAHSHUA, and for THE WORD of ELOHIYM, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with THE MESSIAH a thousand years. Rev 20:4 

And he carried me away in THE SPIRIT to a great and high mountain, and showed me that Great City, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from Elohim, Rev 21:10 

Here is the proof that Melchizedek was a Jebusite from Canaan. So many want to dispute the truth of Malki-Tsedek which is a Canaanite name. Let the Bible show where Abraham came from and who was in the land that Joshua took:

Strong Hebrew Dictionary states: an old Canaanite name meaning king of right; Malki-Tsedek, an early king in Palestine:

And Canaan begat Sidon his firstborn, and Heth, And the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgasite,  Gen 10:15, 16 

And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there. Gen 11:31 

Now YAHWEH had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. Gen 12:5 

But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. In the same day YAHWEH made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,  And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,   And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. Gen 15:16, 18-21   HRB

According to the Hebrew Bible, the Jebusites (/ˈdʒɛbjəˌsaɪts/; Hebrew: יְבוּסִי, Modern Yevusi, Tiberian Yəḇûsî ISO 259-3 Ybusi) were a Canaanite tribe who inhabited Jerusalem prior to its conquest by Joshua (11:3 and 12:10) or King David (2 Samuel 5:6-10). Wikipedia

Here is where prejudice shows up. The Canaanites were the children of Canaan and they came from Ham. But because they are Black it makes it difficult to believe that YAHWEH came to them first.  Have you read Gen Chapter 20?  The reason why is because of Gen 9:26 where YAHWEH said blessed be Shem. Boy was it taken so wrong! Shem was bless, why? Because through his descendants THE SON of THE MOST HIGH would come. All of Shem children did not serve YAHWEH, there was the Elamites,  Abraham folks the Chaldeans, ( even more), the Assyrian was extremely cruel and they are the ones who took the Kingdom of Israel and mix them up with other people. Remember I told you about the curse on the Hebrews. It started with the Kingdom of Israel. Those of the 10 tribes after the call of Hezekiah came back to Jerusalem. They were the faithful ones, that is why even during the time of YAHSHUA, they were call Israel. But prejudice it hard to expel thinking that Ham was a homosexual, which was not true. Canaan, his son was in that tent and Ham should have cover his father, instead he call his brothers. They were outside of the tent and they respectfully cover their father. Noah curse Canaan and not Ham; but YAHWEH came to the cursed one first. I do not question YAHWEH.

The next prejudice concept, so not to accept that Melchizedek was a Jebusite from Canaan, was to say that he was YAHSHUA! Another lie, he was a man. Heb 7:3 states that he actually had no record of his parents or birth. There is no record how he became king in other word his linage to inherit the throne. Why? It was destroyed that's why when Joshua took the city. However Paul call him a man which is human. So it easy to make things out to be a lie even trying to say he was Shem. Boy that a real one, really????

To end, YAHWEH said HIS House was for all people and that Trevor is good enough for me!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

You mention cherubim and seraphim and I agree.

I suggest that the fact that the Cherubim in Ezekiel 1 have four faces indicates that they are symbolic creatures and not literal, or angelic creatures.

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

The different between the two type of angels are their rank!

What rank do the respective Cherubim and Seraphim hold? Are the Cherubim a higher or lower rank than the Seraphim and can you produce evidence for this from the Scriptures?

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

Private in the Strong Greek Dictionary means: Pertaining to self, that is, one's own. So I agree and that means you need to understand what was written. If you and I come to a stop sign we should stop and not pause-simple. You nor I need to say what it means, it will provide its meaning itself. "Line upon line precept upon precept, here little there a little."  Subjects or thoughts in the Bible are in other books of the Bible and they will come together to explain what is meant. We do no come up with what it means, it explains without our help. The Bible says to seek knowledge and understanding!

I disagree that this is the meaning of “private interpretation” in 2 Peter 1:20-21.

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

I respect your believe, but in order for Mary to conceive a child, she had to have sex and she did not.

Mary conceived as a result of the power of the Highest, by the Holy Spirit, and as a result the child born was the Son of God, His Father and the physical son of Mary his mother. She was not a surrogate. She conceived.

Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

Here is the proof that Melchizedek was a Jebusite from Canaan.

There is no Biblical mention of Melchizedek’s ancestry.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

12 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

I suggest that the fact that the Cherubim in Ezekiel 1 have four faces indicates that they are symbolic creatures and not literal, or angelic creatures.

What rank do the respective Cherubim and Seraphim hold? Are the Cherubim a higher or lower rank than the Seraphim and can you produce evidence for this from the Scriptures?

I disagree that this is the meaning of “private interpretation” in 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Mary conceived as a result of the power of the Highest, by the Holy Spirit, and as a result the child born was the Son of God, His Father and the physical son of Mary his mother. She was not a surrogate. She conceived.

Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

There is no Biblical mention of Melchizedek’s ancestry.

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

I gave you my answers and the evidence. One thing THE HOLY SPIRIT put the SEED of YAHSHUA in Mary. YAHSHUA did not have the blood of Mary or Joseph and the Bible confirms that. I cannot make you believe anything that's your choice. I made mine and you have made yours. I do not continue to go over what I have already presented. Every body knew YAHWEH but they turn from HIM believing what they wanted. The Canaanites were chosen first, I showed you and that's all I can do. I cannot make you believe, that's my friend is THE HOLY SPIRIT and I do not interfere with HIS Work! I also do not judge, I pray as I hope you pray for me. My work is done and that means I stop. Be at peace Trevor!

Blessings!

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I suggest that the fact that the Cherubim in Ezekiel 1 have four faces indicates that they are symbolic creatures and not literal, or angelic creatures.

I lean toward this interpretation also - symbolic rather than literal/actual creatures - each with 4 faces.   

From out of the cloud, seen by Ezekiel, came the LIKENESS OF four living creatures.  

The man, lion, ox (or calf) and eagle, were standards for the tribes occupying the central position relative to the Tabernacle, on the N, S, E, W .  All found in Numbers Cpt 2.  

I think it possible these represented the angel guardians of Israel - standing before the throne of God.  Ezekiel would have been familiar with these standards and what they stood for. 

Judah - standard was a LION - on the East

Reuben - standard was a MAN - on the South 

Dan - standard was an EAGLE - on the North 

Ephriam - standard was a CALF - on the West 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

One thing THE HOLY SPIRIT put the SEED of YAHSHUA in Mary. YAHSHUA did not have the blood of Mary or Joseph and the Bible confirms that.

I am not sure what you are stating here. I believe that Jesus was the son of Mary and therefore he partook of Mary as any other child partakes of their mother. He was also the Son of God, His Father, and this was achieved by God the Father’s power, the Holy Spirit. I believe that on this side of his paternity he was, as it were, a new creation. Psalm 8:5 states that he was made a little lower than the Angels. I do not believe that Jesus in the womb was a shrinking of the second person of the Trinity. The RCC teaches some form of immaculate conception to avoid what they call original sin. I believe that Jesus partook of fallen human nature in order to overcome sin and all the effects of sin within himself, and then we then share in this victory if we put our trust in him.

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Canaanites were chosen first, I showed you and that's all I can do.

Genesis 10 gives the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth. There does not seem to be priority given to the descendants of Ham, and if anything the record is preparing the way to reveal Abraham, a descendant of Shem in Genesis 11 and 12.

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I cannot make you believe, that's my friend is THE HOLY SPIRIT and I do not interfere with HIS Work!

I am a bit reticent to agree that your pronouncements are fully inspired as you seem to make many wrong statements. We absorb the Holy Spirit teaching as we read and understand God's written word. We often mix these ideas with our own limited reasoning. God says, Isaiah 55:8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts".

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer and Rachel (8thdaypriest),

12 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Trevor is already "at peace." One of the most peaceful young men on the forum.

Your comment caught me at a time when I am somewhat unsettled as a result of something personal, and what occurred is my fault. But I have a calm disposition as far as my present beliefs. I hope my different perspective does not upset people too much. Discussing here and elsewhere helps me to reconsider and consolidate many aspects of my beliefs, but I am more comfortable listening to and digesting a series of Bible Talks by proficient expositors, and also private study on a subject of interest, sometimes in The Psalms and Isaiah. I may be a bit older than what you suggest.

11 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The man, lion, ox (or calf) and eagle, were standards for the tribes occupying the central position relative to the Tabernacle, on the N, S, E, W .  All found in Numbers Cpt 2.

I like your suggestion of the four Cherubim faces being the standards of the four encampments, but apart from Judah I do not know how to prove this except for the relative positions of the other three. My favourite exposition of the meaning of these faces is the symbol of the ox, and a passage that links this is:

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The way I understand this is the oxen with a double yoke, where the younger is linked with the older to train it to learn to plough a steady path. The older helping the younger when it is slow, burdened and unsteady. Jesus depicts himself as the older, the instructor and guide. Jesus’ call to come unto Him needs to be experienced, and we become very satisfied if we take these steps, both towards Him and with Him.

I also like the lion, but in the following context, although announced as a Lion, it appears to be missing.

Revelation 5:5–6 (KJV): 5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Instead of seeing a Lion, a King in regal splendour, when John looked he saw a Lamb, as if it had been slain. Jesus is enabled to rule because he experienced and shared the suffering when he was crucified.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 9/3/2018 at 1:54 PM, The Wanderer said:

Trevor is already "at peace." One of the most peaceful young men on the forum.

Again Wanderer you presume on me saying be at peace. It was base on kindness and was truly unnecessary for you to say otherwise. Wanderer I truly do not know what is your problem because lately you have commented things that shows that you have a problem with me. I am sorry that you do and if I have in any way upset you, it was not intentional. Let me say this I have said this phrase to others and no one has made the statement you've made. If you feel that I have done something to you please let me know. Let's not become petty please! 

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 9/3/2018 at 6:31 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

I am not sure what you are stating here. I believe that Jesus was the son of Mary and therefore he partook of Mary as any other child partakes of their mother. He was also the Son of God, His Father, and this was achieved by God the Father’s power, the Holy Spirit. I believe that on this side of his paternity he was, as it were, a new creation. Psalm 8:5 states that he was made a little lower than the Angels. I do not believe that Jesus in the womb was a shrinking of the second person of the Trinity. The RCC teaches some form of immaculate conception to avoid what they call original sin. I believe that Jesus partook of fallen human nature in order to overcome sin and all the effects of sin within himself, and then we then share in this victory if we put our trust in him.

Genesis 10 gives the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth. There does not seem to be priority given to the descendants of Ham, and if anything the record is preparing the way to reveal Abraham, a descendant of Shem in Genesis 11 and 12.

I am a bit reticent to agree that your pronouncements are fully inspired as you seem to make many wrong statements. We absorb the Holy Spirit teaching as we read and understand God's written word. We often mix these ideas with our own limited reasoning. God says, Isaiah 55:8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts".

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Trevor: YAHSHUA was place in her womb, HE did not come from her egg, that's what I mean. Too me that simple. Gen 1:28 states it takes an egg from the woman a sperm from the man to make a baby. That was not the case with YAHSHUA!

Wherefore when HE cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering THOU wouldest not, but A BODY hast THOU prepared ME:  Heb 10:5  KJV

Therefore, coming into the world, HE Says, “Slaughtering and meal offering YOU did not desire, but A BODY YOU have prepared for ME. Heb 10:5  TS2009

To me that's plain! I do not use the word immaculate I accept that YAHSHUA was THE SECOND ADAM. The first Adam was perfect without sin and so was THE SECOND ADAM. Both were tempted, the first fail, but THE SECOND ADAM did not fail, that's where I stand.

You Said; "There does not seem to be priority given to the descendants of Ham, and if anything the record is preparing the way to reveal Abraham, a descendant of Shem in Genesis 11 and 12."

I have no clue of what you mean because I never say anything about priority. I also do not understand anything different about Abraham in Gen 11 and 12 not coming from Shem? Can you please quote what I said.

You stated "I am a bit reticent to agree that your pronouncements are fully inspired as you seem to make many wrong statements. We absorb the Holy Spirit teaching as we read and understand God's written word. We often mix these ideas with our own limited reasoning. God says, Isaiah 55:8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts."

Please do not be reticent and agree with anything if you feel reluctant. I totally agree with you concerning Isa 55:8 What I have presented comes from the Bible and I do not absorb THE HOLY SPIRIT and I did not ask you to do that either. What I said is that it is THE HOLY SPIRIT Job and not mine, to lead all of us into truth. I never ask anyone to believe what I've said but to check out the sources that I give and then make your own choice. I never said to you that you have made any wrong statements, because I do not question what you choose to believe. However you have not given me the same courtesy so that's fine.

So again, I say be at peace and be bless!

[stinsonmarri]

40 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I have no idea what you are talking about

If you have no idea then, I will leave it at that.

You be at peace and be bless!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

YAHSHUA was place in her womb, HE did not come from her egg, that's what I mean. Too me that simple. Gen 1:28 states it takes an egg from the woman a sperm from the man to make a baby. That was not the case with YAHSHUA!

Jesus was not placed in Mary’s womb, she conceived. There was no man involved as the conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe that Jesus was the seed of Eve, Abraham and David, an expression that necessitates that Jesus is a direct descendant, not adopted only by Joseph, and not a surrogate through Mary. This necessitates that part of Jesus’ conception and birth process was the egg of Mary. She conceived when the Holy Spirit came upon her, the power of the Highest, that is, God the Father was the father and as a result Jesus was the Son of God, His Father and son of Mary his mother. Jesus or Yahshua (if you prefer) is the Name given to the child born. We could discuss Hebrews 10:5 but I do not endorse your conclusion. First step would be to compare Psalm 40:6-8 and resolve why the translation of this is different almost altogether to the quotation in the Book of Hebrews. When you have a reasonable suggestion, we could discuss if your application of "body" is relevant to the conception and birth of Jesus. I appreciate the rest of your comments. Shalom to you too!

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/3/2018 at 1:51 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I lean toward this interpretation also - symbolic rather than literal/actual creatures - each with 4 faces.   

From out of the cloud, seen by Ezekiel, came the LIKENESS OF four living creatures.  

The man, lion, ox (or calf) and eagle, were standards for the tribes occupying the central position relative to the Tabernacle, on the N, S, E, W .  All found in Numbers Cpt 2.  

I think it possible these represented the angel guardians of Israel - standing before the throne of God.  Ezekiel would have been familiar with these standards and what they stood for. 

Judah - standard was a LION - on the East

Reuben - standard was a MAN - on the South 

Dan - standard was an EAGLE - on the North 

Ephriam - standard was a CALF - on the West 

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/4/2018 at 1:49 AM, TrevorL said:

but apart from Judah I do not know how to prove this except for the relative positions of the other three.

I found the above graphic on a website.  The same arrangement is depicted in several books I have.  Leslie Hardinge's book "With Jesus in His Sanctuary" ,  has a good representation.  Also "The Tabernacle, Its Priests and It's Services" by William Brown.  

The standards - tribal symbols, for each of the tribes are well known.  Also the arrangement of the tribes for encampment around the Tabernacle.  

Numbers 1:52 "The Israelites are to set up their tents by divisions, each of them in their own camp under their standard." (NIV)

Numbers 2:2 "Every one of the Israelites must camp under his standard with the emblems of his family; they must camp at some distance around the tent of meeting. "

On the East, the "camp of Judah" (Lion Gen 49:9) included Issachar (Ass- Gen 49:14) and Zebulon (Ship - Gen 49:13). 

Numbers 2:3-9  "On the east, toward the sunrise, the divisions of the camp of Judah are to encamp under their standard. The leader of the people of Judah is Nahshon son of Amminadab. 4 His division numbers 74,600. 5 The tribe of Issachar will camp next to them. The leader of the people of Issachar is Nethanel son of Zuar. 6 His division numbers 54,400. 7 The tribe of Zebulun will be next. The leader of the people of Zebulun is Eliab son of Helon. 8 His division numbers 57,400. 9 All the men assigned to the camp of Judah, according to their divisions, number 186,400. They will set out first. (NIV)

If you add up the number of fighting men from each of the THREE tribes, you get the total assigned to "the camp of Judah".   Three were counted as one "camp". 

On the South, "the camp of Ruben"  included Gad and Simeon.   (Num 2:10-16).  

On the West, "the camp of Ephraim"  included Manasseh and Benjamin.  (Num 2:18-24)

On the North "the camp of Dan"  included Asher and Naphtali .  (Num 2:25-31)

EAST

Judah - Lion - Genesis 49:9,   flanked by  Issachar -  Ass - Genesis 49:14,   Zebulon - Ship - Genesis 49:13

SOUTH

Ruben - Man - Deut 33:6,  flanked by   Simeon - A City (buildings grouped together) - Gen 49:5,  Gad - A Troop of people - Gen 49:5

WEST

Ephraim - Ox - Deut 33:16-17,   flanked by   Manasseh - Unicorn (or wild buffalo) - Deut 33:17,  Benjamin -  Wolf - Genesis 49:27

NORTH

Dan - Eagle killing a serpent - Gen 49:16,  flanked by  Asher - Fruitful Tree (representing abundance of food) Gen 49:20 ,  and  Naphtali - A Doe let loose  - Genesis 49:21

 

[8thdaypriest]

NAU  Revelation 21:16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements." 

I do not see the City as a big cube.  I see it as a Ziggurat - like a stepped pyramid going up through the clouds.   I believe the base will sit on the earth (the New Earth), and the steps will go up to Heaven.  Think of Jacob's ladder.   I believe it will be a portal between earth and heaven.  As the glory of God shines out, the different precious stones of each "foundation" will result in a beautiful rainbow.  

Wonder where Nimrod got his idea for a tower that reached to Heaven?   The evil angels may have seen it, or one similar on another planet in another dimension/creation.  

1500 miles on a side.   That's a whopping lot of territory.   And remember,  the topography may not be the same after the great earthquake at the end, levels every mountain and island.

[stinsonmarri]

17 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

Jesus was not placed in Mary’s womb, she conceived. There was no man involved as the conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe that Jesus was the seed of Eve, Abraham and David, an expression that necessitates that Jesus is a direct descendant, not adopted only by Joseph, and not a surrogate through Mary. This necessitates that part of Jesus’ conception and birth process was the egg of Mary. She conceived when the Holy Spirit came upon her, the power of the Highest, that is, God the Father was the father and as a result Jesus was the Son of God, His Father and son of Mary his mother. Jesus or Yahshua (if you prefer) is the Name given to the child born. We could discuss Hebrews 10:5 but I do not endorse your conclusion. First step would be to compare Psalm 40:6-8 and resolve why the translation of this is different almost altogether to the quotation in the Book of Hebrews. When you have a reasonable suggestion, we could discuss if your application of "body" is relevant to the conception and birth of Jesus. I appreciate the rest of your comments. Shalom to you too!

Kind regards Trevor

 

 

I figure you would say that with the Ps. 40:6-8. However, I also gave the Peshitta version and I do not deal with the Septuagint version at all. Those who do want to accept what Paul said on this point quickly make your statement. Paul was a rabbi before accepting the truth, this book was for the Hebrew and not any of the Greek books he wrote. He knew exactly what he was saying. There has been many disputes over the New Testament as a whole was written in Hebrew, except Luke and Acts. Then because Paul did not place his name on Hebrew that became an argument. However evidence is available:

The spoken languages among the Jews of that period were Hebrew, Aramaic, and to an extent Greek. Until recently, it was believed by numerous scholars that the language spoken by Jesus’ disciples was Aramaic.…But during that period Hebrew was both the daily language and the language of study.…This question of the spoken language is especially important for understanding the doctrines of Jesus. There are sayings of Jesus which can be rendered both into Hebrew and Aramaic; but there are some which can only be rendered into Hebrew, and none of them can be rendered only into Aramaic. One can thus demonstrate the Hebrew origins of the Gospels by retranslating them into Hebrew. David Flusser

Clement of Alexandria says that the Epistle to the Hebrews is the work of Paul, and that it was written to the Hebrews in the Hebrew language.

Again, that is why I gave you the Peshitta Bible so it would be proven that is was NOT in error.

Finally, the Scripture always proves itself:

Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by HIM in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our MASTER as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction  2 Peter 3.14-16

The Bible proves that YAHSHUA BODY was prepare by THE FATHER and HE was place in the womb of Mary. The Bible never said conceive, it said she was found pregnant by THE HOLY SPIRIT. Trevor, I respect you and I notice you did not provide an Scripture. As I remain firm that Paul present along with with the Gospel writers that the HOLY SPIRIT place A BODY in the womb of Mary and he did not make an error. 

Thanks Trevor for you kind words in Hebrew that means peace and also your understanding of what I was saying to you.

Be bless and Shalom meaning be at peace my brother!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Stinsonmarri,

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I figure you would say that with the Ps. 40:6-8. However, I also gave the Peshitta version and I do not deal with the Septuagint version at all. Those who do want to accept what Paul said on this point quickly make your statement. Paul was a rabbi before accepting the truth, this book was for the Hebrew and not any of the Greek books he wrote. He knew exactly what he was saying.

I was asking you to compare the corresponding phrase in Hebrews 10:5 with that in Psalm 40:6:

Psalm 40:6 (KJV): Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Hebrews 10:5 (KJV): Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

I was not disagreeing with what Paul states in Hebrews 10:5. I was disagreeing with your interpretation of what Paul says. I suggest that we need to understand Psalm 40:6 first, then this gives the basis to understand what Paul is saying in Hebrews 10:5. Your view in inconsistent with Psalm 40:6 and hence your view of Hebrews 10:5 is incorrect.

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible proves that YAHSHUA BODY was prepare by THE FATHER and HE was place in the womb of Mary. The Bible never said conceive, it said she was found pregnant by THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Matthew 1:20 (KJV): But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg: Gr. begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest),

20 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I found the above graphic on a website.

The standards - tribal symbols, for each of the tribes are well known.

I appreciate the information on the standards and the suggested depiction of the Cherubim in Ezekiel 1. I searched the web for possible sketches and there was a wide variety, but not a match to what I have considered. The impression I had was a view of one cherubim with two outstretched wings at the front, and the other three forming a square, each touching the wings of the adjacent Cherubim. If you looked from the north, south, east or west the view would be much the same, but a different face would be seen. The Cherubim would move in one direction or another, according to the type of activity required as per the function of the various faces. I believe that the Cherubim point forward to Jesus and his complete manifestation of all of these Divine characteristics. I believe that the Seraphim is connected to the brass serpent in Numbers 21 and Jesus’ comments in John 3:14-17.

18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

1500 miles on a side.   That's a whopping lot of territory.

My understanding of the future land of Israel is smaller than you depict, as the nations of Egypt and Assyria will have their own territory.

Kind regards Trevor

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible never said conceive,

Luke 2:21 "And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb."

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

My understanding of the future land of Israel is smaller than you depict, as the nations of Egypt and Assyria will have their own territory.

The last plague events - especially the last great earthquake which will flatten every mountain and Island, will dramatically revise the topography of the earth.   The future territory assigned to the Egyptians or the Assyrians, may be different from what it is today.  Yes - they will each have a territory, but the boundaries may not be the same.