There Is No Free Lunch

[Fran]

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Cheap Labor

Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?

Business don't want to pay a decent wage,

Consumers do not want expensive produce,

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs

but the bottom line is cheap labor.

"The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie.

There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal Mexican who sneaks in here with his wife and five children.

He takes a job for five or six dollars an hour.

At that wage with six dependents he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year if he files income tax he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.

He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent,

He qualifies for food stamps.

He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.

His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.

He requires bilingual teachers and books.

He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.

If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled they qualify for SSI.

Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for medicare. (Medicaid)

All of this is at taxpayers expense.

He doesn't have to worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.

Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.

He cannot be fired, harassed, or sued.

He and his family receive the equivalent of $20 to $30 an hour in benefits.

Working Americans are lucky to have $5 or $6 an hour left after paying their bills and his.

They also pay for increased crime, graffiti, and trash cleanup.

Cheap labor?

YEAH RIGHT!"

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I worked for the Department of Defense: Immigration. When and illegal comes to America and has aids, they get free medical care, nursing home care, all medications for free. Immigration can not deport illegal immigrants with aids. At least that was the case when I was there. DOJ footed the bills monthly.

DOJ has buses to deport illegal immigrants every day of the week in Texas alone. We pay for all of the paperwork and the legal fees only to deport them again next week; over and over again. The people are on first name basis with INS employees!

Think of all of the employees DOJ has to hire to oversee the Budget and financial affairs of illegal immigrants.

Then add to that all of the field agents all across the United States. What is the $ tab for that.

We have had little effect on illegal immigrants even after we declare Amnesty back when.

Is it time we tried something entirely different? Maybe we need to overtake Mexico? (TIC) Why is it our government thinks that writing a check solves everything?

We need advice from Dr Phil, again!

What we need is some truly free labor. When the illegal immigrants are caught, they work off the cost of everything, and then go home when they earn enough for the bus ride! They receive no cash; no more free rides folks. There is no such thing as a FREE lunch/ride for anyone. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/soapbox.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mf_surrender.gif" alt="" />

[Neil D]

I gotta ask this question, Fran....

Why are we down on the illegal immagrant? We have laws in place that go after employers who hire the illegals. The trouble is that there is no teeth in the laws.

And yes, going after the business will cause those same business to MAYBE increase thier labor costs and these labor costs will be passed on to the consumer who will become cost conscience again...

Which cost do you want to have? Income tax increases or cost of living expenses increase? It's your choice...

[Fran]

Oh, I believe the businesses should be fined too! Let us have justice for all!

The employer should pay the Government the amount of dollars they paid the illegal immigrant and that amount should be put in the unemployment fund for unemployed Americans!

They should also pay beck Social Security on wages paid to illegal immigrants. They should also be responsible for any gain the employee gained by filing a tax return and getting cash back.

It the employer gets fed up with big bills they will find it is not worth the hastle! This is the only way to see real change!

Oh yes, the employer should also be fined a huge, very large, gigantic fine to help solve this problem.

If the folks could not get a job to get MONEY, they will stay home and try to change their Government to help themselves. Follow the money! Dry that up for the employer and illegal employee and the problem WILL decrease.

Before you judge me on what I am saying, remember that 5/7 of my children are resident aliens.

What I am saying is that we caused the problem by not punishing the employer – EVERY TIME!

The illegal immigrants will stay home when it is no longer profitable to come here and stay here! Forget that border patrol! The illegal immigrants sneak across after the patrol passes by, like, DUH!

The Government in Mexico should also be fined and punished for pushing their people out of their own country. Let us stop trade with Mexico or any other country that is a big problem. Cuba is small. We could take them out in a heartbeat if they caused problems. The citizens would probably love that.

Dry up that gusher of cash leaving our country and there will be no reason for them to come here. Therefore, at that time, most illegal immigrants should be highly suspected as being a terrorist.

Our country is broke! When we, the citizens, are broke and in a hole, it behooves us to STOP DIGGING! The United States would do well to stop digging and start shoveling in cash! Fill that hole that is seeping us dry.

I am not a Democrat or Republican. I vote as I see it. I claim no “Side.” Right now, I would say, I am not for G. W. Bush. I have voted Republican, Democrat, and Independent; I vote for the one I think will be the best for our country period.

Now, for them there Canadians…..

[lazarus]

Sorry that this question sounds trite but

what do u think Jesus would do? Fran

[Neil D]

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Sorry that this question sounds trite but

what do u think Jesus would do? Fran

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[Looking this way and that and then pushing down "the rediculous lever" on this computer]

Answer: Grab 'em all, stand 'em against a brick wall, and then

Kill them all, illegal immigrant, employer and let God sort out whose right and who is not!

[standing back and feeling alittle frightened at what was just said. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/sad25.gif" alt="" /> ]

[Fran]

I believe the laws of the land need enforcement. Jesus thought we should abide by the laws of the land. Our Lawmakers have a problem with this.

If the current laws were finally applied, we would not be having this discussion.

Laws, policies, and procedures are like a pendulum. It flows far right and to the far left! Soon the pendulum slows down, they become closer, and closer until the pendulum almost comes to a stop.

Action and reaction usually follows the same principle. The pendulum has almost stopped, until someone realizes we are in deep financial trouble. What are we going to do about it?

The proposed solutions says in essence, "We can't apply the law we have ignored for so long, so let's reward those law breakers. We will not lose any votes this way. In fact, we will gain votes."

That is why corporations being taken over will lose the culture of that corporation. In fact, the current culture, in many cases, is destroyed. They need free thinkers, not the ones that allowed the Corp to go to pot in the first place. The parent company will "Shock" the employees into "change" or "leave."

What do we want? Do we want a band-aid or a fix?

Jesus tells me to obey the laws of the land as far as they do not conflict with God's law.

We can care for the hungry, orphans, and widows while they are living in their own country. Our church does this everyday of the year!

There are exceptions to every rule, but this is not an exception. It is the new rule!

Neil;

I would NEVER line them up and shoot them! That is against God’s law! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" />

[lazarus]

I hear you Fran...

but that would Jesus do about it?

[Dr. Shane]

Understand that most illegals do not file income tax because they are using a stolen social security number. If they file income tax that means two people with the same social security number will be filing income tax. The IRS and Social Security Administration would quickly look into the matter. So all the federal, state and social security witholdings stay in the treasury and there is no earned income tax credit given back. Estimates are that if all the illegals are made legal it will cost the tax payer MORE to have them here legally than it does to have them here illegally.

Americans do not want the jobs illegals do for the awages the illegals are paid. If the emplyers had to pay more they would not hire as many workers and would ship more of the jobs overseas. In a capitalistic society the consumer drives the wages. These low paying jobs exist because the consumer doesn't want to pay high prices. Businesses can only stay in business by giving the comsumers what they demand.

[Guest]

are all illegal immigrants treated the same, or do some get a free pass while others don't? If the large corporations continue to hire illegal immigrants and are not punished then the problem will not go away.... since republican administrations favor big business, I don't see the problem being resolved anytime soon....

[Dr. Shane]

I think we might be on the verge of a solution. Not a 100% solution but such a one doesn't exist. When one comes accross the border there is a sign with the number of illegals stopped and the number of pounds of drugs confiscated that year to date. We shall see how much this new legislation impacts that.

[Naomi]

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I hear you Fran...

but that would Jesus do about it?

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As Fran said, we have been told to obey the laws of the land.

Is it not kinder to stop the easy access of the illegals than to allow it to continue to increase? WWJD

All too often the "honest" people who attempt to enter illegally are transported in extremely unsafe methods. Often they are blackmailed by being charged unjust amounts of money to people who "arranged" for their coming to this country.

Why can't we set up a facility simular to Ellis Island and they can be allowed to enter under approprate situations?

Just thinking ......

Naomi

[Dr. Shane]

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Why can't we set up a facility simular to Ellis Island and they can be allowed to enter under approprate situations?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

We now use our embassies and consulates in other countries. People that want to immirgrate go to our embassy in their country, fill out an application and get put on a waiting list. The more illegals that violate the law to come in, the longer those going through the process legally have to wait.

[Pockey]

My friend's family has been waiting over 10 years to come to the U.S. They applied in the 1990's. Finally some of them are coming over.

I can't help but think how unfair it is that other people who happen to border our country are able to come in more easily, whereas some people wait over 10+ years. And those that border cross are starting to mess things up for the people that are trying to do it the way required by law.

[Fran]

Sid;

EXACTLY!

Punish those who do right by making then wait years and years to come here legally;

on the other hand, reward those that dishonor our land and laws by taking our rights, money and our country. In fact, they are illegal by their understanding and ours!

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

ALL OF THIS DONE TO APPEASE THE VOTERS SO THE PROBLEM WILL GO AWAY BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION. THEN THE PROBLEMS WILL BE MULTIPLIED AND FALL ON THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION.

WE ARE TEACHING THEM THAT CRIME PAYS!

IF YOU WANT IT TAKE IT; THEY WILL ROLL OUT THE RED CARPET AND BLESS YOU WITH BENEFITS BEYOND BELIEF!

THEN YOU WILL HAVE TO WAIT TO GET YOUR PAPERS, BUT YOU ARE PROMISED THAT YOU WILL GET THEM!

ALL THEY WANT IN RETURN IS YOUR VOTE! THERE ARE OVER 20,000,000 (oops votes) CRIMINALS TO BECOME CITIZENS OF OUR COUNTRY!

T-H-I-N-K ABOUT WHAT WE ARE ABOUT TO DO!

This is supposed to find all those terrorists, right.

Now WHO in their right minds would register when their very existence depends on not being legal?

I AM CONFUSED! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/seenoevil.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/AAdoh.gif" alt="" />

[gina i]

Well let's see here. Didn't the mexicans OWN California, Nevada, New Mexico & parts of Arizona & Texas?

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh those darn immigrants eh?

Sheesh.

[gina i]

Also, the illegal immigrants do the work that most LAZY AMERICANS don't want to do. Like work in fast food, clean hotel rooms, etc. So really, they're doing US a favor by coming to the states to do the work no american wants to do because it's 'not on their level'.

Know what I'm saying?

[Stan]

The unemployment rate of americans is low, far below most other nations.

If the 12 million workers went back south, who would pick the crops and other manual labour?

In parts of Canada a couple of years ago, over 20% of the fruit and other crops (not grains) rotted in the fields as there was no one to hire to take them off.

[gina i]

That's right Stan.

[Neil D]

[:"blue"]Do Illegal Immigrants Really Take Jobs From Poor American Workers?

by Earl Ofari Hutchinson

The young Black man hesitated as he stood outside the small furniture manufacturing shop in South Los Angeles. He was dressed neatly, and he was well groomed. He eyed the building warily. The sign on the narrow glass door in English and Spanish, read "help wanted" and trabajo aqui. The opening was for a shop helper, mostly to sweep up and do routine clean up and maintenance. It did not require any education or special skill. It paid minimum wage, as did the thousands of shops that dotted the area. The company had no employee health care plan, or other benefits.

After a moment he went in and politely asked for an application. The petite receptionist, a young Latina, handed him an application form, with an airy nonchalance. She curtly suggested that he fill it out and bring it back. When he asked if there would be an interview, she haltingly said only if there was a position open. The young man looked perplexed, glanced at the help wanted sign, politely thanked her and left. A couple of hours later two other young Latinos came in to apply. One was immediately hired. The other was told that another helper job might open up within the next few days. However, the workers in the shop, as they were in nearly all the other shops in the area were Latinos, a large percentage of who were illegal immigrants.

There were no other Blacks, whites, or even English speaking native-born Latino workers in the plant or at few of the other shops in the area. This is not a fictional story. I personally witnessed the scene at the company involving the Black job seeker. Anti-illegal immigration activists say that the experience of the young Black job seeker has played out thousands of times at restaurants, hotels, on farms, and at manufacturing plants nationally, and that this is a major reason so many young Black males are unemployed join gangs, deal drugs and pack America's jails.

Congress will hammer out a comprehensive immigration reform law. But it won't answer this question: Do the estimated 10 to 12 million illegal immigrants in the country take jobs from American citizens, especially the bottom rung American workers, the young, the poor and more often than not African-American workers?

What if the young Black job seeker, or any other American looking for work in a low end manufacturing plant or a restaurant in Los Angeles, were offered that job which probably pays minimum wage and doesn't offer any benefits or job security? Would he take it? Maybe yes, maybe no. It's certainly hard to imagine that a young Black from South Los Angeles, South Chicago, or Harlem, not to mention a native born young white or Latino going out to the fields to pick strawberries for 10 to 12 hours a day in the hot sun at minimum or even sub-minimum wages. Or, that they'd take a job at a car wash or bus dishes in a restaurant. But what if the farm contractors, car wash owners, and manufacturers paid a living wage and provided benefits. It might be a different story, at least for some young people in Los Angeles.

Then there's the regional factor. There is some evidence that young workers will work jobs in the South and the Midwest. Jobs that have long been designated as jobs that only illegal immigrants will work, that is if those jobs were offered to them. But when employers give the quick brush-off to young Blacks and other young American workers that are willing to take lower end jobs, they send the not-so-subtle message that they are not wanted or welcome. This is a powerful disincentive for them to pursue work in these taboo areas of the job market. The end result is that an entire category of jobs at the ground rung of American industry is clearly marked as "Latino only." The fight over jobs and illegal immigration came at the worst possible time for the urban poor. Shrinking federal and state budgets for job training and creation programs, industry downsizing, and escalating crime and violence in inner city neighborhoods made banks and corporations even more reluctant to invest in these communities, and that made the job situation even worse.

The young Black in Los Angeles and other cities that anti-illegal immigration opponents cite as proof that illegal immigration is ruinous for the economy and the urban poor may or may not have lost out in his job hunt to an illegal immigrant. But he also might have lost out in his job search because of discrimination, poor education, government budget slashes and the flight of manufacturers to other countries. That is no excuse not to ensure that American workers have the right to work in any and all industries. That would do much to calm the fury of many Americans who worry that illegal immigration sledgehammers at least some American workers. Congress and the Bush Administration must not ignore that worry.

Earl Ofari Hutchinson is an author and political analyst. He is the author of The Crisis in Black and Black (Middle Passage Press). [/]

And from another site-

[:"purple"]

Do you think illegal immigrants coming to this country today take jobs away from American citizens, or do they mostly take jobs Americans don’t want?

30% Mostly take jobs Americans don't want

70% Take jobs away from American citizens

[/]

Apparently, Americans have had experience where thier jobs were taken from them by illegals, and the perception is that illegals take jobs away from Americans...

[Dottie]

Hre's my 2 cents:

1. From what I understand, 79% of farm labor is Americans.

2. Enforcing the law may hal.

3. I hate to go to the store and feel as if I am in a foreign country (Is it this bad in Canada? At least I understand the majority of folks there).

4. Paul Harvey suggested that perhaps we could dig a moat all along the border and build levees in New Orleans. Then we could put all the excess alligators from Florida in the moat. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

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If the 12 million workers went back south, who would pick the crops and other manual labour?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

What would happen is that 12 million of those who are waiting to come to the US legally would be allowed to come in.

[Fran]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

4. Paul Harvey suggested that perhaps we could dig a moat all along the border and build levees in New Orleans. Then we could put all the excess alligators from Florida in the moat.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Now, there is a plan! A great plan of prevention. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mf_surrender.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

Not likely. We have a problem with some kind of weed growing in the river. The solution was to plant some kind of fish in the river that would eat the weed. We had to get Mexico's permisision before we could plant the fish in the water.

[Pockey]

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Hre's my 2 cents:

I hate to go to the store and feel as if I am in a foreign country (Is it this bad in Canada? At least I understand the majority of folks there).

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, a lot of people hate going to an all caucasian store. America is a melting pot, you better get used to it.

[lazarus]

I stil haven't had an answer to my question. What is the "Jesus" approach to all of this. What kind of plan do you think he would support.

Of course Jesus would say lets obey the law....but the law was not always his primary concern.......what should our primary concern be towards these immigrants.

By the way when Jesus fed the 5,000 it was a free lunch!