There Is No Free Lunch

May 29, 2006

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Since you mention justice, the Bible apparently cosidered this justice for those who sought protection by deception--by breaking trust. When a person breaks a law, justice involves penalties.

Interesting....penalties for justice....Hmmmmmmmm....

My idea of justice also involves mercy....Afterall, we were strangers and aliens and we have all sorts of trespasses against God, and yet, He deals with us with the concept of mercy...and forgiveness....

These concepts are strangers in a legalistic mind frame...

May 29, 2006

Justice does demand punishment. That is evedent in light of the cross. If justice didn't demand punishment Jesus would not have had to die.

May 29, 2006

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Justice does demand punishment. That is evedent in light of the cross. If justice didn't demand punishment Jesus would not have had to die.

You are correct, Shane...Justice does demand punishment....However, Mercy "abounds even more".... Whether we will wield mercy depends upon our understanding of justice...And many times, mercy IS justice...However, we don't weild it too often, because we like to punish. We like to hurt, because we think we percieve that we ourselves have been hurt....

Too often, the deviousness of the human mind becomes apparent as application of "justice" and the few other noble ideals are applied or withheld. Justice becomes another form of oppression, and subverting other classes of people. Immagration is not immune to injustice....

Well, when it comes to immigration, I have NOT been hurt. In fact, I have benefited in paying lower prices at the supermarket for items that I deemed necessary for me and my family's life.

Where have you been personally and directly hurt?

May 29, 2006

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However, Mercy "abounds even more".... Whether we will wield mercy depends upon our understanding of justice...And many times, mercy IS justice...However, we don't weild it too often, because we like to punish. We like to hurt, because we think we percieve that we ourselves have been hurt....

This is even more confused than it appears, which is an accomplishment, of sorts.

1) But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. Rom 5:20

Mercy and grace are related but far from identical.

2) Mercy is not "wielded," it is granted.

3) Mercy is not justice, not even sometimes. Justice has to do with receiving what one has earned or deserved. Mercy is being spared what one deserves.

4) Justice and Mercy are in tension, or, if you prefer, in balance. Both are necessary. As C.S. Lewis pointed out, "Mercy, separated from justice, grows unmerciful."

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Justice becomes another form of oppression, and subverting other classes of people.

Sheer Marxist cant, with a dash of newspeak.

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Where have you been personally and directly hurt?

Self-defeating solipcism and narcissism. You cannot argue compassion for the immigrants on the basis that "No man is an island . . . any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind;" (John Donne, Devotion XVII-- It's a good read, by the way), and then argue that the violation of a law, trespassing upon another's property, falsification of public records, doesn't affect me personally. It's self-contradictory.

The same argument was made during WWII by isolationists, and was immortalized by Martin Niemoller. "First they came for the communists, but since I wasn't a communist, I said nothing. . . ." It boils down to: If it doesn't affect you "personally and directly," it's none of your business.

It was wrong then, and--after such a drastic object lesson-- it's vacuous now.

When the law is violated, respect for all law declines, and makes every one of us less safe. That's the lesson of history.

That's both a good reason not to pass bad laws, and a good reason to enforce good ones.

May 29, 2006

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2) Mercy is not "wielded," it is granted.

definition of "Mercy"

[:"blue"] Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.

A disposition to be kind and forgiving: a heart full of mercy.

Something for which to be thankful; a blessing: It was a mercy that no one was hurt.

Alleviation of distress; relief: Taking in the refugees was an act of mercy [/]

Maybe I should have used "clemency" instead of mercy, but the idea is the same. And it occurs to me again, that mercy is wielded, ie chosen to be used, even if it is granted.

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3) Mercy is not justice, not even sometimes. Justice has to do with receiving what one has earned or deserved. Mercy is being spared what one deserves.

What you are describing for justice is actually "merit". Concider the following definition of Justice-

[:"blue"] The quality of being just; fairness.

The principle of moral rightness; equity.

Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.

The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law.

Law. The administration and procedure of law.

Conformity to truth, fact, or sound reason: The overcharged customer was angry, and with justice [/]

And for Merit-

[:"blue"]Superior quality or worth; excellence: a proposal of some merit; an ill-advised plan without merit.

A quality deserving praise or approval; virtue: a store having the merit of being open late.

Demonstrated ability or achievement: promotions based on merit alone.

An aspect of character or behavior deserving approval or disapproval. Often used in the plural: judging people according to their merits.

Christianity. Spiritual credit granted for good works.

merits

Law. A party's strict legal rights, excluding jurisdictional, personal, or technical aspects.

The factual content of a matter, apart from emotional, contextual, or formal considerations. [/]

Definiately, you are using justice for merit and it doesn't seem to fit with the pentameter of your logic. [edited by Bravus]

May 29, 2006

Moderator hat on.

OK, let's be careful on tone, gentlemen. I've edited Neil slightly. Please characterise the argument, not the arguer. Try to use language precisely and carefully, and err on the side of gentleness and non-confrontation. I'd hate to have to lock the thread...

May 29, 2006

I have said this before and I think it is worth repeating. Mexico is not some hell hole that no one would want to live in. Sometimes I watch the Mexican version of Family Feud. One of the questions was, "What do you love most about your country?" and one of the top answers was "freedom".

Most of the illegal immirgrants that come here do so because it seems to be the easiest way, not because they don't have other options. Many that come here go back on their own because America isn't what they had believed it to be.

May 29, 2006

just tagging on here again, not a specific response to anyone...

If anyone was offended by my reference to Nazis, I apologize. I was not just throwing around rhetoric to try to make a point - it was real events that involved my actual family members.

I think I might have turned the temperature in here up a bit too high and I will take a break for a while... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/sorry.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/banplease.gif" alt="" />

aldona

May 30, 2006

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By the way when Jesus fed the 5,000 it was a free lunch!

Free for the 5000. Not free for Jesus. Nothing comes without cost. The when, how, why, and who, when answered reveal who is or has been paying.

I go with the statement, "There is no free lunch." However,

until Americans stop spending some 12 to 30 billion dollars

annually, watching people throw, hit, kick, punch, stick, or

stab various items, just for the pleasure of watching others

throw, hit, kick, punch, stick, or stab various items, I personally won't have too many empathetic emotions for the complainers of support for people who are just trying to find ways to put three square meals before their families on a regular basis.

[:"red"] "Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return." [/] Luke 6:38 NASB

May 30, 2006

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you can't ask for texts concerning issues that were not known in Bible times.

[:"red"] "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever." [/] Isaiah 59:21 KJV

The same issues were at stake in that era, as from the beginning of time.

[:"red"] "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." [/]

1 John 2:16 KJV

When those issues disappear from the human condition, there will be no difficulty meeting the problems with the answers necessary to satisfy everyone who welcomes our Father's plan of salvation.

[:"red"] "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." [/]

1 Corinthians 2:12 KJV

[:"red"] "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." [/] Matthew 10:8 KJV

Keep the faith!!

May 30, 2006

My definition of justice: receiving what one has earned or deserved

Your definition: due reward in accordance with honor

So no, I'm not using merit. Justice is "due reward" "what one has earned." Justice has to do with receiving what one deserves, has earned, what is due.

And I think you need to look up pentameter. I haven't been writing Shakespearean verse.

May 30, 2006

Fine, LHC, show us the verses about smoking, fiscal policy, quantum physics, tariffs, monetary policy, term limits, computers, ipods, and the internet.

May 30, 2006

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Quite often, that which is virtuous when personal and voluntary, becomes progressively more corrupt when it is, shall we say, "outsourced."

For those concerned about the union of church and state, it always puzzles me why government coercing one Christian duty (charity) is good, while coercing another (Sabbath-keeping) is bad.

I believe both are wrong.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" /><img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/icon_salut.gif" alt="" /> [:"red"] "If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth..." [/] 1 Peter 1:17 NASB

May 30, 2006

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My definition of justice: receiving what one has earned or deserved

Your definition: due reward in accordance with honor

So no, I'm not using merit. Justice is "due reward" "what one has earned." Justice has to do with receiving what one deserves, has earned, what is due.

My definition came from dictionary.com. It isn't my definition. Check it out...

May 30, 2006

The point is, although they aren't identical, verbatim, they are the same.

May 30, 2006

We seem to have got far afield from the thread topic. Ed, would you be willing to outline what you see as a solution for the illegal immigrant problem, starting from the current situation? I agree that these people have broken the law, and that the law should have been enforced much better so that the situation didn't arise, but given where the US is right now, what is the solution?

May 30, 2006

In order to keep the labor demands filled the US needs to keep most of the illegals that are here. I like the ideas being considered by Congress now.

Allow illegals to become legal by paying a fine and jumping through some hoops.
Increase Border Patrol and barriers on the border.
Stop the policy of "catch and release"
Make it more difficult for employers to hre illegals

May 30, 2006

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Ed, would you be willing to outline what you see as a solution for the illegal immigrant problem, starting from the current situation?

My first reaction was, "No." But, here goes:

1. Barrier at the U.S.-Mexico border. Whether this takes the form of a fence, a wall, motion-detection sensors, I wouldn't want to specify. Let experts work it out.

2. Monitor all transfers of funds from U.S. to Mexico via computers (that's where the big problem is, could be expanded to other countries later). Track back account numbers and verify citizen/green card status. Confiscate all funds transferred from illegals in U.S. to Mexico. This eliminates one major incentive, both for individuals and for the Mexican government, and helps identify illegals.

3. Allow 90 day period for illegals to self-identify and receive free ticket home, afterwards face forced deportation.

4. Give employers same 90 day period to verify workers are not illegal, or face significant fines.

5. Give local law enforcement jurisdiction to ask about illegal status.

6. I'm O.K. with some sort of regulated "guest worker" status, as long as its enforced.

7. Amend the Constitution so that children born to persons illegaly in the country are not automatically U.S. citizens.

That should be a good start.

Having said this, let me at least attempt to fend off the cries of xenophobia. As a matter of fact, I favor immigration. I think it makes this country great. As long as people want to come here and beome Americans-- this includes learning English and cherishing American values-- I say, "Welcome."

Unlike the Old World, America is about a set of ideas-- about truths we hold to be self-evident-- rather than about lineage or even ethnicity. Everyone who shares those values I'm happy to have come. They enrich this country greatly.

As it happens, this year both of my daughters are getting married. ONe to a fellow of German descent, whose ancestors have been here for several generations. The other to a young man of Hispanic descent, who is 2nd or 3rd generation American, with family still living in Mexico.

I'm extremely pleased with both young men. Just so you know.

May 31, 2006

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Fine, LHC, show us the verses about smoking, fiscal policy, quantum physics, tariffs, monetary policy, term limits, computers, ipods, and the internet.

[:"red"] " He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." [/] Luke 10:26-28 KJV

Since this was addressed to one person with one particular question, and not all would agree with the answer given by the lawyer, then it is my conclusion this added counsel will suffice in aid by the Holy Spirit to the person who strives to do God's will to the best of his/her ability.

[:"red"] "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ. " [/] Galatians 6:2 NASB

Keep looking up!!

May 31, 2006

Thanks, Ed, that makes sense as a consistent policy. I still think it's not workable practically without some very ugly violence as people are rounded up and shipped off, but I guess that's just a difference of assumptions.

May 31, 2006

There are some good suggestions there but I think it all falls down because of the sheer scale of the problem. Imagine deporting millions of people. Its not going to happen. The political/social fallout would be enormous.

The only pratical way of regulating immigration is to really come down on employers hard and be very very tight on ID verification. Its time to get those rfid's implanted I guess! Thats the only way I can eally see the US rolling back the tide!

I guess white folk need to have more babies too to maintain the majority status which I'm sure is driving alot of this(I don't mean on CA) debate.

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this includes learning English and cherishing American values-- I say, "Welcome."

Unlike the Old World, America is about a set of ideas-- about truths we hold to be self-evident-- rather than about lineage or even ethnicity.

Are there many 2nd/3rd generation immigrants that do not speak English. My feeling is that time takes care of that one. Many of the european immigrants that came decades ago now speak English albeit with a strong accent.

I wonder amount what these American values are as opposed to French, UK, South African etc...are they really that distinct....don't most developed countries have them?

May 31, 2006

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some very ugly violence as people are rounded up and shipped off

That's something a lot of felons have in common. They often resort to violence when confronted with enforcement of the law.

Does that mean we shouldn't enforce laws against murder, theft, extortion, etc., because the felons resort to violence?

However, having just recently read Representative Mike Pence's proposal, I like it better than my own. That's why I was reluctant, I'm aware some have given greater study to this than I have.

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Pence, like many fellow conservatives, calls for much tighter border security and a crackdown on employees who hire illegal immigrants.

But what's different about his plan is that it would create a legal and realistic means for guest workers to match up with U.S. employers. Under Pence's proposal, the federal government would license private firms to set up "Ellis Island Centers'' in the nations most likely to supply labor to the U.S. Employers would contract with the firms to find workers, who would be required to pass a background check and health screening before receiving a visa.

Admittedly, Pence's plan begins to break down with a second provision that would require the nation's 12 million existing illegal immigrants to return to their nations of origin to apply for visas. Attempting to accommodate a migration on that scale would be unwieldy in the extreme. Pence, however, argues that it's politically necessary to satisfy opponents of outright amnesty.

Indianapolis Star

<hr /></blockquote> read the rest here.

Actually, the newspaper is wrong about the problems of mass migration. After all, the 12 million made it here despite efforts to keep them out. If they want to work here, they'll find a way to get home and back.

The beauty of the plan, and why I much prefer it to my own, is that it involves the private sector, which is more likely to be efficient than government, and that it provides a positive motivation for current illegals to self-identify, as well as punishment.

Beyond that, this has a very practical virtue, of which I'm quite in admiration: it has a real chance of being passed.

May 31, 2006

I think it makes sense as a plan too, and I agree that its addition of a carrot to the stick is valuable.

I guess the only clarification is that I was talking about the violence on the part of the authorities that would be needed to deport the people, not violence on the part of the people themselves.

May 31, 2006

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I was talking about the violence on the part of the authorities that would be needed to deport the people, not violence on the part of the people themselves.

Then there need not be any violence.

It's interesting that you assume that law enforcement will be violent, while lawbreakers will be peaceful.

May 31, 2006

Guess what I heard on the radio yesterday.

GWBush does not even want to discourage illegal aliens from coming to the US to work and live, etc., without documentation. He is actually working to establish a North American Union, to dissolve the borders between US and Canada and US and Mexico, so every person can go back and forth without any problem. Also, to do away with the dollar, the peso, etc., and establish a single mode of currency, the Amero [something like the Euro].

This is all taking place under the radar, but there are documents which lead to this plan. It's supposed to become effective by 2011.

The person being interviewed on the radio sounded authentic. He was an investigative reporter, and his book [or report] is coming out in print soon. I was driving in the car and couldn't make notes when I heard this. But I'm going to look into it some more.

I think that would be tragic.

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