Under Law

[Ron Amnsn]

On 10/13/2019 at 3:04 PM, BlessedMan said:

Do you, yourself even do half of aall those "sacrifices" from the OT Temple? If not, why tell others they should? Its not making sense at all, to me.

Maybe you're mistaking me for someone else, or not reading carefully.  I've never told others they should offer sacrifices.

[8thdaypriest]

8 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

You seem to be using a different measuring stick for the people that lived before Jesus than you use for the people who lived after Jesus.  The Israelites are scattered across a vast area.  Would the righteousness of an Israelite who lived in Spain suddenly become unrighteousness because Jesus died in faraway Jerusalem?

I think I explained there was a transition period.  Those faithful to Yahweh, and led of His Spirit, who had not yet heard of Jesus will be saved and "inherit" because of their faith (not their DNA).   If they were led of His Spirit, we can assume they would gladly have embraced Jesus had they HEARD about Him.   

Rahab the former harlot will "inherit" because of her faith in Yahweh (without the DNA). 

Individuals who HEARD the message of Christ and REJECTED that message, were/are "broken off" from "the Tree" (for unbelief).  One must HEAR before one can BELIEVE.  Paul said that too. 

[8thdaypriest]

14 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

That's not true. You might be stuck in traffic about to give birth in your car or a taxi! 

Good one.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 10/12/2019 at 5:26 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Israel's sacrifice IS "perpetual".   Israel's Sacrifice is Christ.   We also present ourselves as "sacrifices".  We also offer praise and thanksgiving and works of service as "sacrifices".  When we are baptized, we are presenting ourselves wholly to God, as an Israelite would have presented a "whole burnt offering". 

I suggest you actually go and read what God instructed the Israelites regarding animal sacrifices and the time-span which God instructed them to continue doing so.  The things you mention here have no bearing on what God instructed the Israelites to do regarding animal sacrifices.

 

[8thdaypriest]

I'm still thinking about OT passages that point to Messiah as priest, as well as king. 

The prophecy of Zechariah Cpt 4 is one.  The anointing of priest, and the anointing of king are combined in the one golden bowl, which is then the conduit for the Spirit to the churches.   I believe this prophecy is about Christ and what He would be. 

If the prophecies were so easily "seen", the majority of Israelites would not have "missed" half of them.  Sooooo very often, it is only when the prophecy is fulfilled, that we can "see" the prophecy clearly.  Even Paul had to isolate himself, to study back through the OT, to confirm what He had experienced on the Damascus Road - that Jesus was indeed the long awaited Messiah, and had fulfilled the prophecies.  He needed that study to strengthen his arguments with devout Israelites (who knew their OT).    

[JoeMo]

8 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Those faithful to Yahweh, and led of His Spirit, who had not yet heard of Jesus will be saved and "inherit" because of their faith (not their DNA).

I think this statement was proven true in scripture:

"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people." (Matt. 27:51-53)

I have to believe these holy people ascended to heaven with Jesus rather than experience the first death a second time.  I don't think these holy people had a full concept of who Jesus was or what He would do.  They just followed His Law and Spirit to the best of their understanding; and had an intimate relationship with the Being who became Jesus.  They likely loved and believed Him to the point that they would readily and gladly receive "doctrinal correction" from the Lord Himself

[8thdaypriest]

12 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I suggest you actually go and read what God instructed the Israelites regarding animal sacrifices and the time-span which God instructed them to continue doing so.  The things you mention here have no bearing on what God instructed the Israelites to do regarding animal sacrifices.

 

Are you saying I have not read those passages - many many times?   Come on Ron. 

[Ron Amnsn]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Are you saying I have not read those passages - many many times?   Come on Ron. 

Your responses show that you are reacting to something different than what God instructed.  If you're going to be a priest some day, I would hope you have more respect for that office than you do for the priests that came before you.

[BlessedMan]

36 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Your responses show that you are reacting to something different than what God instructed.  If you're going to be a priest some day, I would hope you have more respect for that office than you do for the priests that came before you.

ATTENTION FELLOW BIBLE STUDENTS!!

Everyone here is always "wrong" except RON

[8thdaypriest]

I am drawn back to the prophecies which point to Messiah being a King descended from Judah, and also being "a priest forever".   But that wasn't "the Law" - unless there was actually "a change of the Law", and that "change" involved "the priesthood". 

I know the LORD "changed" the priesthood at Mount Sinai.  He took "the Levites instead of the firstborn", who had inherited the priesthood since the gate of Eden.   

Here's the original.

Exodus 13:2 "Sanctify to Me every first-born, the first offspring of every womb among the sons of Israel, both of man and beast; it belongs to Me."

Here's the change.

 Numbers 3:41 "And you shall take the Levites for Me, I am the LORD, instead of all the first-born among the sons of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the first-born among the cattle of the sons of Israel." (Num 3:41 NAS)

Numbers 8:15-16 "The Levites will then begin their ministry in the Tent of Meeting. 'You will purify them and offer them with the gesture of offering because, of the Israelites, they have been dedicated to me in place of all those who first emerge from the womb, instead of the first-born; of all the Israelites, I have taken them for my own." (NJB)

 

If the LORD "changed" the priesthood at Sinai, then He could also change the priesthood BACK to "the firstborn" (His original intention) after Christ paid for the sin of golden calf rebellion of Sinai. 

Christ is "the firstborn over all creation" Eph 1:15.   He is "the firstborn" of God.  This is why He can legally be both High Priest and King on this earth forever. 

Another Messianic prophecy combines priest and king.

Zechariah 6:13 "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."' (NAS)

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Your responses show that you are reacting to something different than what God instructed.  If you're going to be a priest some day, I would hope you have more respect for that office than you do for the priests that came before you.

How have I shown such disrespect? 

[8thdaypriest]

The firstborn inherit a double portion.

Deuteronomy 21:17 "But he shall acknowledge the first-born, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the first-born." (NAS)

In the prophecy of Isaiah we find priests who have the "double portion".  This means they are "firstborn". 

Isaiah 61:5 "And strangers will stand and pasture your flocks, And foreigners will be your farmers and your vinedressers. 6 But you will be called the priests of the LORD; You will be spoken of as ministers of our God. You will eat the wealth of nations, And in their riches you will boast. 7 Instead of your shame you will have a double portion, And instead of humiliation they will shout for joy over their portion. Therefore they will possess a double portion in their land, Everlasting joy will be theirs. 8 For I, the LORD, love justice, I hate robbery in the burnt offering; And I will faithfully give them their recompense, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them. 9 Then their offspring will be known among the nations, And their descendants in the midst of the peoples. All who see them will recognize them Because they are the offspring whom the LORD has blessed." (NAS)

The Levites were to have "no inheritance" in the land.

Numbers 18:23 "Only the Levites shall perform the service of the tent of meeting, and they shall bear their iniquity; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, and among the sons of Israel they shall have no inheritance." (NAS)

Deuteronomy 10:9 "Therefore, Levi does not have a portion or inheritance with his brothers; the LORD is his inheritance, just as the LORD your God spoke to him." (NAS)

This prophecy shows the "change" of "the priesthood" from Levi (no portion) to "the firstborn" (double portion). 

[8thdaypriest]

From the Apostolic Writings:

Revelation 20:6  “Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.  Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”  

I don't see how these could all be Levite priests.  That would mean only Levites would be resurrected first.  

    I Peter 2:5, 9, 10 [Speaking to believers after the resurrection.]  “. . . you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ . . .  you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation [Israel], His own special people...”

Revelation 2:17  “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.  ‘To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat.’”

        The twelve loaves of the shewbread were originally made from manna and were “hidden” from view, set on a golden table inside the first apartment of the Sanctuary tent.  Only the priests ate of this bread (Lev. 24:9).

Revelation 1:6, Revelation 5:9-10  The twenty four elders proclaim that Christ “has made us kings and priests to His God and Father.”

    1.  kings and priests (Rev. 20:6, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:9-10).
    2.  reign/rule with Him - over the nations (Rev. 2:26).
    3.  reign on the earth (Rev. 5:9-10).

        NOTE: These “priests” are redeemed from “every tribe, tongue, people and nation.”   
    They are NOT all Hebrews, much less all Levites. (Rev. 5:9-10)

 

BIG QUESTION:  If it's over at the Second Coming, and no other human beings will be "saved", then what need could there be for priests, who reign as kings on the earth for 1000 years? 

 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

ATTENTION FELLOW BIBLE STUDENTS!!

Everyone here is always "wrong" except RON

Stop it !  You two are ruining this discussion.  This pattern of attacking each other is why I left this forum for almost a year. 

[BlessedMan]

I apologize for the upset, but sometimes a person just needs to be told how what they are doing affects people, and makes them feel. Its not likely to happen again, so please enjoy the forum. Ill stay out of the way. You have also told us how you feel, and Ill respect that.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

BIG QUESTION:  If it's over at the Second Coming, and no other human beings will be "saved", then what need could there be for priests, who reign as kings on the earth for 1000 years? 

IMHO, it's because the 7th Millennium is spent here on earth governing the remnant of nations that survive the wrath of God.  I know we don't agree on that; and that's okay.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

IMHO, it's because the 7th Millennium is spent here on earth governing the remnant of nations that survive the wrath of God.  I know we don't agree on that; and that's okay.

Yes I know.  I do not believe there will be ANY "survivors" of the 7 last plagues (except of course those translated off this earth). 

[BlessedMan]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

IMHO, it's because the 7th Millennium is spent here on earth governing the remnant of nations that survive the wrath of God.  I know we don't agree on that; and that's okay.

OK, so here is a question. There has been some discussion above re "The Temple," and how it will possibly be rebuilt AGAIN.  This is what Jesus had to say about it:

Quote

Mat 24:1  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

So, what I dont get is why people would be looking for it to be rebuilt again, because of this? What possible purpose would there be in that? Just something I thought Id try to offer for discussion.

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

So, what I dont get is why people would be looking for it to be rebuilt again,

Read Ezekiel chapters 40 - 47.  It describes in great detail a Temple which has never existed.  Will this Temple be rebuilt in the end times of this age? Probably not.  Will it be built in the 7th Millennium? IMHO yes.  Will it be built in the 8th Millennium?  I'm not sure, but I think Rachel may believe it will be built in the 8th Millennium (I hope I'm not misrepresenting you, Rachel).

If the antichrist will sit in the Temple and declare himself to be God, as stated in 2 Thessalonians 2, where this this temple?

[JoeMo]

Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus was talking about the second temple, not all temples forever.

[BlessedMan]

8 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus was talking about the second temple, not all temples forever.

thanks for the replies. I guess if one ascribes to belief in all these "milleniums" it would or could work like that, and its not my intention to knock anyone's beliefs in particular.  But to me, that line of thinking presents quite a few questions. 

I'll have to go through those chapters you pointed out in Ezekiel to comment intelligently on that...advancing age seems to thin out the memory banks a little. I have been thinking of starting a separate topic on mat 24, which I will do; but one think I was thinking, in relation to being "under the law" is HOW do any of the Temples in OT & NT actually connect us to said "law?"

A primer, for example: the law of gravity. We all have to "obey" that, so is that also "the law of God?"  Apart from the sacrifices and sacraments of the OT Temple; how does it tie into "being under the law?"  Are we trying to say that "the law" is "prophecy?" Or, is it more like the "law" of gravity?"

I may just have made it more confusing now, I am not sure. But Im sure someone will let me know. :)

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Read Ezekiel chapters 40 - 47.  It describes in great detail a Temple which has never existed.  Will this Temple be rebuilt in the end times of this age? Probably not.  Will it be built in the 7th Millennium? IMHO yes.  Will it be built in the 8th Millennium?  I'm not sure, but I think Rachel may believe it will be built in the 8th Millennium (I hope I'm not misrepresenting you, Rachel).

If the antichrist will sit in the Temple and declare himself to be God, as stated in 2 Thessalonians 2, where this this temple?

Yes.  Rachel believes it will be built in the 8th millennium, specifically for "the rest of the dead" - it will be the place of interface for them, the place where they will come to worship the LORD, and to learn His ways (Isa Cpt 2, Mic Cpt 4).  Those delivered at the "first resurrection" (second coming), who become "priests of God and of Christ", will govern and teach those who "live again" at the 8th millennium.  

During the 7th, there can be no "sowing" and no "harvesting".   The land will rest.  It will be "without form and void" according to Jeremiah.  It will be the "uninhabited place" where the scapegoat is banished. 

I do not believe anyone will survive the 7 last plagues (except the redeemed who are translated off this earth). 

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/14/2019 at 6:25 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I'm still thinking about OT passages that point to Messiah as priest, as well as king. 

The prophecy of Zechariah Cpt 4 is one.  The anointing of priest, and the anointing of king are combined in the one golden bowl, which is then the conduit for the Spirit to the churches.   I believe this prophecy is about Christ and what He would be. 

If the prophecies were so easily "seen", the majority of Israelites would not have "missed" half of them.  Sooooo very often, it is only when the prophecy is fulfilled, that we can "see" the prophecy clearly.  Even Paul had to isolate himself, to study back through the OT, to confirm what He had experienced on the Damascus Road - that Jesus was indeed the long awaited Messiah, and had fulfilled the prophecies.  He needed that study to strengthen his arguments with devout Israelites (who knew their OT).    

 I would also add:  If the prophecies indicating a future "change" of the priesthood, had been easily seen,  powerful kings or other individuals might have tried to bring about that "change" before "the time" - God's time. 

At least one king did enter the Temple (2Chron Cpt26).  He was struck with leprosy.  I wonder where Uzziah got the idea that he could?  Did he think he was the prophesied priest/king? 

 

[8thdaypriest]

For devout Jews worldwide, the Temple of Jerusalem is bound up with their identity, not just their history.   The OT prophecies say that Messiah will "come to His Temple".   Messiah cannot come until that Temple is restored. 

I believe a war will destroy the structure currently occupying the Temple Mount.  This will allow for rebuilding the Temple on its original spot.  (There is some argument about that, about where exactly is the original spot.  Some say the Temple can be rebuilt without removing the structures currently occupying the Mount.) 

If you visit templeinstitute.org, you will see they have many things ready to go, should access to that spot on the Mount become available. They can go in to consecrate that spot very quickly, to re institute the system of sacrifices.  

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes.  Rachel believes it will be built in the 8th millennium, specifically for "the rest of the dead"

I totally respect your reasoning for coming to this conclusion.  Your reasoning is sound.  I also believe my reasoning is sound.  I'm not so stuck on my opinion that I completely reject yours.  I believe there is scriptural support for both positions.  It's fun to study about it and discuss it, as long as people remember that this is a discussion forum; not a body of theologians who are setting firm doctrines.  If we didn't have different opinions, we wouldn't have much to talk about, would we?