Under Law

[JoeMo]

12 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

 I was thinking, in relation to being "under the law" is HOW do any of the Temples in OT & NT actually connect us to said "law?"

It's called a "rabbit trail".  As you know, it happens all the time here. I personally have no problem with it unless people use it to hijack the thread. Since this is Gregory's thread, he can determine whether or not to thread needs to be redirected to the subject.

Also, the Temple was the focus point of much of the Law (e.g., celebration of Feast Days and all of the required sacrifices).  It's not so much that the Temples connect us to the Law; but the Law connects us to a Temple.

[BlessedMan]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

It's called a "rabbit trail".  As you know, it happens all the time here. I personally have no problem with it unless people use it to hijack the thread. Since this is Gregory's thread, he can determine whether or not to thread needs to be redirected to the subject.

Also, the Temple was the focus point of much of the Law (e.g., celebration of Feast Days and all of the required sacrifices).  It's not so much that the Temples connect us to the Law; but the Law connects us to a Temple.

True; and I dont want to hijack the thread, so Ill start another topic. It is interesting to note that Mat 24:34 does say, or seems to say that the Jewish people, as a race, will still exist up until the time Jesus does return. Many of the "laws" being discussed, from my POV here are simply of the kind that could be compared to 'the law of gravity," as in not really relevant for "salvation" was my main point for that comment.

Quote

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I totally respect your reasoning for coming to this conclusion.  Your reasoning is sound.  I also believe my reasoning is sound.  I'm not so stuck on my opinion that I completely reject yours.  I believe there is scriptural support for both positions.  It's fun to study about it and discuss it, as long as people remember that this is a discussion forum; not a body of theologians who are setting firm doctrines.  If we didn't have different opinions, we wouldn't have much to talk about, would we?

lol  - yes agree. 

I look at the bowl judgments.  They are so very devastating.  If they are indeed literal, and if they involve the entire planet, then I don't see how anyone could be left alive.  This is what makes me believe the earth will be void of life - the "uninhabited place", during the 7th millennium.   This is what makes me apply the prophecies to the 8th millennium.  

I look at the prophecies of "the nations" going up to the Feast of Tabernacles (Zechariah 14) and going up to the Mountain of the LORD, to learn His ways.  Where do those nations come from? 

I know there will be a resurrection at the 8th millennium.  The Second Coming is the starting point for the 7th millennium.  "The rest of the dead" are not alive during the 7th millennium. 

I have also looked at what happens at the Second Coming.  The multitudes judged to be wicked and unrepentant, are "raised to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2-3).  They will face judgment at the Second Coming.  What would be the point of resurrecting them again, to face judgment again?  Isn't once enough?

My own view of the final Lake of Fire destruction does not involve conscious suffering for human beings.  I believe it will be the LORD's destruction of His memory of them - their spirits if you will - the memory/mind that He retained at the point of their physical death.   After that is destroyed, they can never be resurrected again.   

I do not believe "the rest of the dead" are all of the wicked from 6000 years (as SDAs believe).  I believe they will be folks who died in ignorance, immaturity or disability such that they could not choose God the Father and His Son, or knowingly reject them.  God cannot just translate them into His kingdom.  They did not ask to be there.   That would be manipulation.   And they have not been tested.  Everyone who is ultimately given eternal life in the Kingdom of God, will have been tested. 

[8thdaypriest]

Are people today still born "under the law" ?  

I believe we are.   You sin - you die, is still "the law".  Right?  

Yes.  For those of us who have believed, Christ has "set us free from the law of sin and death".  But that still leaves a lot of people still "enslaved".

When the text says that Christ was "born under the law" - was it not "the law of sin and death" that Christ was "born under".  The verse makes a point to say that he was "born of a woman".  What does being "born of a woman" have to do with being "born under the law"?

I think Paul makes the point that Jesus was born human, and therefore was subject to "the law of sin and death". 

1.  It means that IF He had sinned, He would have died eternally.     He had no savior but His Father.  His Father was bound by His own law (you sin - you die eternally). 

 

2.  It means He was born "mortal", and therefore subject to the effects of "sin and resulting death" upon this whole creation. 

The Second Law of Thermodynamics, can only be overcome/balanced by an input of energy from God Himself.  Without that, this creation will slow down, run down, wear out  and die.  That's the LAW and we are all subject to it. 

In our world, babies die.  Babies have not sinned.  They die because they live in a world that is dying, and they are subject to the effects of "the curse" on this whole creation, under Satan's dominion.  

Jesus was not born with Adam's height, or stamina, or longevity.  He was born with Mary's deteriorating DNA.  If Christ had not died by crucifixion,  he would have grown physically "old" just like every one else in human mortal flesh.  Not because He had sinned.  Just because He lived in this world, and had a human/mortal nature.  He could have lived without sinning for a hundred or two hundred years, and then died.   Yes - that life would have fulfilled the terms of the Covenant, and would have won our salvation.   Yes.  His Father could have resurrected Him, because He perfectly obeyed and never sinned.  But such a life and death would not have made the public statement that His crucifixion made.   The crucifixion was God's "love letter" to say "This is how much I love you!" 

 

Hebrews 2:9 says  "He was made a little lower than the angels FOR the suffering of death"  (Heb 2:9). 

The verse could have said, "He was born human so that He could die.  It was the plan for Him to suffer physical death.  He had to be "obedient unto death" - in order to fulfill the terms of the Covenant and rescue the willing.  

My point here - about "the law", is that "under the Law" does not have to mean just "under the Law given from Sinai" (though that was life or death).   Evangelicals believe that's all it means, so they can dismiss all of the Law of Sinai for themselves.   
 

[BlessedMan]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus was not born with Adam's height, or stamina, or longevity.  He was born with Mary's deteriorating DNA.  If Christ had not died by crucifixion,  he would have grown physically "old" just like every one else in human mortal flesh.

You made some good points. My take on this part is that the Bible says Jesus was made "in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh,"  NOT as in  a replica of sinful flesh. To me, it is essential to steer away from trying to determine, from a text or two, the actual physical Substance of Jesus.

> I believe that such texts are talking more about what Jesus did, than what He was made of. And that, in my mind, is really essential to understand, for our own, individual experience with Him. 

I am not saying anything about what you believe, just what this comment made me think about. I think that what I said has the most significance when we are trying to determine what is being "under the law" look like, in our life, and in the life of Christ, Incarnate.

Edited October 18, 2019 by BlessedMan
grammar, spelling

[8thdaypriest]

Look at how the Complete Jewish Bible distorts Galatians 4:4-5. 

Galatians 4:4 "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (NAS)

Galatians 4:4-5 “but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, so that he might redeem those in subjection to this legalism and thus enable us to be made God's sons.” (CJB)

I that's a big stretch, to make it just about the Oral Torah, and not about every human being living "under" God's law of life and death. 

Romans 3:19 applies "the Law" to "the whole world".

Romans 3:19 “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.” (NET)

Why would it speak or have application only to Jews, if the "whole world", and every every human being will be "accountable" to God on the basis of what His Law "says" ?

[8thdaypriest]

Romans 2:12 "For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; (NAS)

If all humanity is "under the Law" of God, then how is it possible to sin without the Law? 

My understanding of Paul here, is that human beings who do not know (have never heard) the Law, will not be held to the same standard.  Their sin is one of complete blind ignorance, and their sin will not be judged as rebellious sin. 

Jesus said, "If you were blind you would have no sin."

Paul says that "God winked" at the "times of ignorance". 

The morning/evening sacrifice was to cover "sins committed in ignorance". 

This is a big reason why I believe that folks who lived and died "in ignorance" must be resurrected to learn about God, His Son and His Law.  Only then can they be judged "according to the Law".  The only other option is to leave them dead - as if they were animals.  I don't believe God will do that.

There seem to be three divisions or types of people - in relation to "the law". 

1.  Those "without the Law" - living in ignorance.

2.  Those "under the Law" - (informed) - they know God is, and that He has a Law, but they have rejected His rescue plan.

[I think there is also a subgroup who are informed about the law, but are ignorant of Christ.]

3.  Those "not under the Law" - (informed) - believers who by faith will not come under judgment. 

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (NAS)

There are also several levels of sin.  

Sins committed in ignorance  vs  stupid mistakes  vs  sins of rebellion (against God)

All sins will end in death - without Christ, but they are not dealt with in the same way.  God's response differs, based upon the attitude of the sinner.  Which demonstrates His understanding of us individually, at any point along our lives.

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Romans 2:12 "For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; (NAS)

If all humanity is "under the Law" of God, then how is it possible to sin without the Law? 

My understanding of Paul here, is that human beings who do not know (have never heard) the Law, will not be held to the same standard.  Their sin is one of complete blind ignorance, and their sin will not be judged as rebellious sin. 

Jesus said, "If you were blind you would have no sin."

Paul says that "God winked" at the "times of ignorance". 

The morning/evening sacrifice was to cover "sins committed in ignorance". 

This is a big reason why I believe that folks who lived and died "in ignorance" must be resurrected to learn about God, His Son and His Law.  Only then can they be judged "according to the Law".  The only other option is to leave them dead - as if they were animals.  I don't believe God will do that.

There seem to be three divisions or types of people - in relation to "the law". 

1.  Those "without the Law" - living in ignorance.

2.  Those "under the Law" - (informed) - they know God is, and that He has a Law, but they have rejected His rescue plan.

[I think there is also a subgroup who are informed about the law, but are ignorant of Christ.]

3.  Those "not under the Law" - (informed) - believers who by faith will not come under judgment. 

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (NAS)

There are also several levels of sin.  

Sins committed in ignorance  vs  stupid mistakes  vs  sins of rebellion (against God)

All sins will end in death - without Christ, but they are not dealt with in the same way.  God's response differs, based upon the attitude of the sinner.  Which demonstrates His understanding of us individually, at any point along our lives.

 

 

I am sorry, but honestly this does not make sense to me. Why do we tried to make something from both the Hebrew  and the Greek language to mean what we want it to mean? Doesn't it seem more reasonable to find out the meaning of the words?

We also have to remember that the English scribes and the Bible scholars today tried to base things on their preconceived beliefs; instead of showing the actual understanding  that the Hebrew and Greek were saying and what they actual meant.

 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom 2:12  

Now, believe it or not, I understand exactly what Paul was saying. But this notion that: "There seem to be three divisions or types of people - in relation to "the law". " How is that possible, either you obey the law or you don't! There are only two classes of people those who stop sinning who realize that they must keep YAHWEH'S Commandments and have the Testimony of YAHSHUA! Now, the other class who do not recognize there is a Law or they are lawless will perish! Why? Because they are guilty and will be judge under the Law they will come under because they refuse to accept and obey! The Greek word, "anomōs," is the English word, "without." It is a Greek adverb and it means lawless! Many today are lawless they do not want to obey YAHWEH'S Law at all. 

Then the Greek word, "ἐν," is the English word, ''in."  The Greek word is a primary preposition denoting fixed position in place, time or state. That fixed position of time had run out and by not keeping the Law, they will be judged and their sentence is death!

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears MY WORD, and believes HIM who sent ME, has Eternal LIFE, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into LIFE."John 5:24 (NAS)

This is true because they kept the Commandments and understood the Testimony of YAHSHUA which is THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY that THE SON has past down throughout the ages. Their names were called and their sins were blotted out! They remained in THE LAMB'S BOOK of LIFE!

Finally, those who YAHWEH wink over their ignorance is what they lived up to according to HIS Law. Read that verse carefully:

 And the times of this ignorance ELOHIYM winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent: Act 17:30

Now, it is Commanded to all flesh everywhere to repent. You can't unless you know HIS Commandments and will because the Gospel will be preached to all and then the end will come!

Blessings and Happy Sabbath!

[BlessedMan]

57 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

That fixed position of time had run out and by not keeping the Law, they will be judged and their sentence is death!

quite true, and a good example of this "fixed in position of time"  idea would be Rev 22:11

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Let those who do wrong keep on doing wrong. Let those who are evil continue to be evil. Let those who do what is right keep on doing what is right. And let those who are holy continue to be holy."  (NiRV)

"under the law" has eternal results:

"Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will have the right to come to the tree of life. They will be allowed to go through the gates into the city. (Rev 22:14)

[stinsonmarri]

9 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will have the right to come to the tree of life. They will be allowed to go through the gates into the city. (Rev 22:14)

You are so right and it truly make sense! They will not perish or they have been judge and found to be obedient to the Law. By beholding we will change and stop sinning or breaking the Law. If you stop breaking it, you do not come under the penalty of it, which is death. We have washed our lives in THE BLOOD of THE LAMB and now we like the Adams are perfect as it was in the beginning! HALLELUYAH PRAISE BE TO THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT who have redeem those back to THEM!

Blessings to you Blessed Man! You Got It!

Edited October 19, 2019 by stinsonmarri
correction

[BlessedMan]

20 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

They will not perish or they have been judge and found to be obedient to the Law. By beholding we will change and stop sinning or breaking the Law.

It is a serious thing to be "under the law."

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"Outside the city are the dogs and those who practice witchcraft. Outside are also those who commit sexual sins and murder. Those who worship statues of gods, and everyone who loves and does what is false, are outside too. (Rev 22:15)

I have often wondered why so many people make light of Adventists or other Christians who just want to do whats right, do what God says, and try to help others avoid the rather final looking penalties of rejecting His law. Of course some would rather confuse the issue by bickering over "what is the law" kinds of codswallop*, but I don't see anywhere that God just says: "Oh, you are a nice person 'Blessed Man' so dont worry about that stupid ol'  law!"

______

* "codswallop" is a very interesting word. I think it originated somehow in Britain; but the basic meaning of it, according to the Word Web Dictionary is "(informal) statements or beliefs that are untrue or make no sense"

Edited October 19, 2019 by BlessedMan

[8thdaypriest]

I will exit this thread now.

[BlessedMan]

On 10/16/2019 at 10:07 AM, JoeMo said:

It's called a "rabbit trail".  As you know, it happens all the time here

I think this might have happened again...I sincerely have no idea why tho. I thought the discussion was going well.

(made with Adobe Spark)

Edited October 19, 2019 by BlessedMan
added credit for meme

[BlessedMan]

On 10/16/2019 at 7:32 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I have also looked at what happens at the Second Coming.  The multitudes judged to be wicked and unrepentant, are "raised to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2-3).  They will face judgment at the Second Coming.  What would be the point of resurrecting them again, to face judgment again?  Isn't once enough?

I dont think scripture actually says these two resurrections happen at the same time? Therefore, it would not be a "second time" at all. I guess it depends on where one is coming from on that point.

[BlessedMan]

On 10/15/2019 at 9:19 PM, BlessedMan said:

A primer, for example: the law of gravity. We all have to "obey" that, so is that also "the law of God?"  Apart from the sacrifices and sacraments of the OT Temple; how does it tie into "being under the law?"  Are we trying to say that "the law" is "prophecy?" Or, is it more like the "law" of gravity?"

I think I had some good reasons for mentioning this, in this way.  IMHO "under the law" would not be limited to just "the ten commandments:

God was once addressing Jeremiah, in a rather curt way, I thought, and He put it like this:

Quote

"I say, 'What if I had not made my covenant with day and night? What if I had not established the laws of heaven and earth? (Jer 33:25)

So these "laws of heaven and earth" would have to be a part of us all being "under the law."

God answered His own question to Jeremiah, (kind of like some of us here do) and said that IF He were to claw back/negate His laws (regarding day and night) that:

Quote

Only then would I turn my back on the children of Jacob (see vs 26)

What I was thinking about being "under the law" is that the "laws of heaven, and earth"  (which include the ten commandments) are non-negotiable; they cannot be cancelled, or we would be cancelled. But the "laws" that the Levite Priests had to adhere to cannot be classed as "laws of BOTH heaven and earth," they would just be limited to the earthly Temple service, before Christs crucifixtion. After that; God has since been striving to get us all in line with the "laws of heaven and earth;" but not with the old covenant Levite sacraments.

The former Levite laws were simply not needed. God has turned His back on those, since Christ was/is the "better Sacrifice."

[BlessedMan]

2 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

The former Levite laws were simply not needed. God has turned His back on those, since Christ was/is the "better Sacrifice."

I would add to that Ron is right in one respect. We should not just disregard all of the Levite Priest's Temple practices, for the simple reason they do illustrate in type, or symbolically, that "better Sacrifice" of Jesus. We can learn a lot about His Sacrifice on Calvary, through those OT Temple proceedings, and they should not be tossed out as unimportant.

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I will exit this thread now.

Me too.  I think we've pretty much beat this topic to death.  I might start a new topic called "Under Grace".  If I truly am in Jesus Christ, I am under grace, not Law.  Truth is not a set of doctrinal statements and Law; Truth is a Person - Jesus Christ - who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

[stinsonmarri]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I will exit this thread now.

I wonder why you have to exit??????

[stinsonmarri]

14 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Me too.  I think we've pretty much beat this topic to death.  I might start a new topic called "Under Grace".  If I truly am in Jesus Christ, I am under grace, not Law.  Truth is not a set of doctrinal statements and Law; Truth is a Person - Jesus Christ - who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

I wish that Jo and 8thdaypriest would have stayed. We are not under grace. Grace is a merit that is given to us only if we be faithful and obey YAHWEH'S Law. YAHWEH Said if you love ME, then keep MY Commandments and Grace through MY SON'S death allow you to be redeem back in MY FAVOR. If you keep the Commandments you will not come under YAHWEH'S Law! I don't understand why they left. Was it because of me, I hope not!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

We are not under grace. Grace is a merit that is given to us only if we be faithful and obey YAHWEH'S Law.

We are under grace, according to the scriptures.

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." (Rom. 6:14)

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:4)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God  not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8)

"I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power."   (Eph.3:7)

A gift is something giving to you that you did not earn.  It is unmerited favor.  Rewards are things that people earn.  I think you are confusing gifts with rewards.

Thinking that grace is the result of obedience and good deeds is backwards thinking.  Obedience and good deeds are the result of grace.

 

[stinsonmarri]

12 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

We are under grace, according to the scriptures.

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." (Rom. 6:14)

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:4)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God  not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8)

"I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power."   (Eph.3:7)

A gift is something giving to you that you did not earn.  It is unmerited favor.  Rewards are things that people earn.  I think you are confusing gifts with rewards.

Thinking that grace is the result of obedience and good deeds is backwards thinking.  Obedience and good deeds are the result of grace.

 

Joe: I thought you would know that the Greek word "nomos," would be understood!

From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law. Strong Greek Dictionary

We are not under Moses Law because now the whole world can have grace, but many choose not too!THE TRUE LAMB has done what all the sacrifices could never do take away sin. They were a temporary covering until YAHSHUA died! We need to separate the sacrificial laws from YAHWEH'S Commandments. There is a song that saids: "What can wash away my sin, nothing but THE BLOOD of YAHSHUA!" That Law shows you that you have sin and THE BLOOD give you grace. This grace is given as each one of our names come up before THE JUDGE, THE FATHER and THE LAMB stands before HIM and states MY BLOOD is sufficient for this individual. Why! Because that person has died to sin and have allow THE HOLY SPIRIT to assist them in cleaning up their mind and their life. HE SEALS them and now YAHSHUA RIGHTEOUS  is given. THE FATHER, THE JUDGE then gives out justice of grace and their names remain in the Book of LIFE! We believe and accept this by faith but it is done when our name is call and then the fulfilment is completed.

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." (Rom. 6:14)

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from THE MESSIAH; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:4)

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of ELOHIYM  not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are ELOHIYM handiwork, created in THE MESSIAH YAHSHUA to do good works, which ELOHIYM prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph. 2:8)

"I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of ELOHIYM grace given me through the working of HIS POWER."   (Eph.3:7) WOY Version

Look who gives out the grace, THE FATHER, when- in Heaven when our name comes up. Each of us right now are in Investigated Judgment and our names will come up for grace or damnation. When this has been completed then the beast will arrive. There is no intercession at that short period of time. Those who have grace will hear THE FATHER give the time of HIS SON'S coming. That is the blessed stated clearly in Daniel Chapter 12. Once in Heaven, we will see why others were lost. We all return with YAHSHUA for HIS Executive Judgment. He that is just still will be just and he that is filthy will be filthy! Those with grace reward is the earth made new and the wicked reward is death forever no longer to exist!

Blessings!

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace." (Rom. 6:14)

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from THE MESSIAH; you have fallen away from grace." (Gal. 5:4)

You know; I had never thought about this "under the law" thing so much in the past, because all of my focus has usually been about the grace. Which I certainly don't deserve. But these two texts have got me thinking!  Could it be that when we are "under the law" that we would be those  Sadventists who "justify themselves" BY the law; and could it be that those who are truly "under grace," are JUSTIFIED by Jesus Himself? Being "under grace" seems like the total opposite from "under the law!" As Christians, we choose to be either "under His Law, or under His grace, mercy, and peace. Thats the official recipe for a Gladventist!

[8thdaypriest]

Grief!  Jesus said, "I know my sheep."  "My sheep hear me."    He certainly doesn't need 175 years plus (since 1844) to determine which of us hear Him.  Neither does God the Father.

The judgment of Daniel 8:7:9-14, 22, 26-27 is ABOUT Christ.  It's not about us, except in a secondary way.  Christ is the one being judged.  When He is judged worthy of dominion, and Satan is judged guilty, then dominion will be taken from Satan and given to Christ.  THEN as the One with dominion, Christ will rescue those who "heard" Him - those He knew and knows.  THEN He will judge those who persecuted His people.  THEN He will sadly leave behind those who rejected Him.

John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son."

To me, the question being asked by the unfallen beings of "the court"  is: 

"Can Christ rehabilitate humans infected with sin, to the point where they will not mess things up again.  He wants to give eternal life to sin infected humans.   Has He proved that He can 100% heal/restore them without violating/manipulating their free will? 

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

"Can Christ rehabilitate humans infected with sin, to the point where they will not mess things up again.  He wants to give eternal life to sin infected humans.   Has He proved that He can 100% heal/restore them without violating/manipulating their free will? 

I think the "threat" here is being misinterpreted. Could it be that JoeMo was right above when he called this topic a "rabbit hole?" Or was it "rabbit trail?" Either, or. I am wondering where this "question" is that your post referred to near the end? Is that actually asked somewhere in scripture? Or, is it a human question? :)

[stinsonmarri]

6 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

You know; I had never thought about this "under the law" thing so much in the past, because all of my focus has usually been about the grace. Which I certainly don't deserve. But these two texts have got me thinking!  Could it be that when we are "under the law" that we would be those  Sadventists who "justify themselves" BY the law; and could it be that those who are truly "under grace," are JUSTIFIED by Jesus Himself? Being "under grace" seems like the total opposite from "under the law!" As Christians, we choose to be either "under His Law, or under His grace, mercy, and peace. Thats the official recipe for a Gladventist!

Blessed Man did you read everything I presented. We today were not in the time of Paul. Paul was not speaking of the Commandments but the law of Moses which was also discuss in Acts 15:5-12  by Peter. You know, I am truly honest that I cannot believe that this is not understood? You also know that the Bible states you cannot enter Heaven without keeping THE FATHER'S Commandments:

 Blessed are they that do HIS Commandments, that they may have right to the Tree of LIFE, and may enter in through the Gates into the City. Rev 22:14

So do you think the Bible is contradicting itself? Of course not, we today like them should know that the laws of sacrifice could never save anyone. The Bible said Noah find grace in THE EYES of YAHWEH, so grace has always been here even for the Adams. But to receive it in its fullness, YAHSHUA had to die and we have to stand before THE JUDGE, THE FATHER! When our name comes up will we be covered by THE BLOOD of THE LAMB to receive grace by THE JUDGE or will we be found wanting! We must know and understand the truth. YAHWEH said MY people are lost due to their lack of knowledge and understand of HIS Law that deals with sin versus the sacrificial laws that was a temporary covering! You choose, I have already and SDA cannot save THE LAMB'S did, we need to take hold of faith and believe!

Blessings!