Under Law

[BlessedMan]

34 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Blessed Man: First, there is a difference in the European word Jew.

that was quite a dissertation! But it has nothing to do with my post, and it does not show why Rev 12:17 is supposedly "the same thing" as 1 Cor 9???  I think you are way out in whats called "left field," in this one.

[BlessedMan]

17 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Blessed Man: Look if you want to choose that Rachel is correct, that is your choice. The Bible says to both of us:

LOL, well Im sorry but it has nothing to do with "choosing Rachel," at all! Where on earth did you cook that one up from?

You can provide all of the "obey verses" you want to; and none of them "prove" a thing about obedience, except that most of the time we have no idea what we are actually talking about that subject.

The point I made was my own point, and had nothing to do with her; except for the way her one comment which I was agreeing with, in principle.  If "the law" was just a simple matter of "obey or die,"  none of us would be here today. Jesus said it pretty clear that there is no way to "obey" on our own, and that the ONLY way, anywhere in Scripture, that could be seen as "obeying" would be IF we love Jesus. (see John 14:15). Its impossible to "obey" unless we love our Lord. Its impossible to love someone we do not know. And its impossible to say that the commandments are not also enablings for the simple reason that every one of them tell us something of the character of God.  Further; we are told that by God's promises, (such as the 10 commandments) we WILL "partake of the divine nature." (see 2 Pet 1:4).

Seeing how God enacts one of His "commandments" or promises in our daily life, is clearly the best way to know Jesus. (see John 17:3), for it is eternal life to know Him. We can know Him by His commandments. We can know Him better when "if you love me you will be able to keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

[stinsonmarri]

11 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

that was quite a dissertation! But it has nothing to do with my post, and it does not show why Rev 12:17 is supposedly "the same thing" as 1 Cor 9???  I think you are way out in whats called "left field," in this one.

Blessed Man: Let me explain: To them that are without law, as without law, here Paul is explaining to the Greek Gentiles, who, were not without secular or civil laws that the majority of nations of that time are governed by. However, they did not know or understand the written law of Moses. The apostle Paul was explaining that YAHSHUA came and died and they were no longer like him, been Judaeans, a tribe of IsraEL, at one time was continually under the law of sacrifices.

However, Paul showed the Greek their circumcision was now through the heart. They still was required because their bodies were now their Temple, this is where THE MOST HIGH dwell, they still need to eat the right kind of food not being without the Law of YAHWEH. This Law was also THE MOST HIGH Moral Law.

Paul continue to explained that though THE MESSIAH had delivered them from the curse and condemnation of sin,  sacrifices of animals or works could never take away sin, only THE MESSIAH'S BLOOD by faith through grace. Yet obedience was still required to the Law of YAHWEH! Under the Law to THE MESSIAH is now love, which humble them and brings them back to THE FATHER those who were not under the law of Moses could also gain life and salvation. They now love to keep the Law of THE MOST HIGH knowing they are by faith in the hands of THE MESSIAH. They know through HIS  Testimony with humble gratitude to HIM, received by HIM the blessings of grace through faith, will return to THE MOST HIGH and hear and obey HIS Word which is keeping HIS Commandments. That is what I was referring to all the saints and I should have given Rev. 14:12 instead of Rev 12:17. It was my mistake and I am sorry!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

11 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

LOL, well Im sorry but it has nothing to do with "choosing Rachel," at all! Where on earth did you cook that one up from?

You can provide all of the "obey verses" you want to; and none of them "prove" a thing about obedience, except that most of the time we have no idea what we are actually talking about that subject.

The point I made was my own point, and had nothing to do with her; except for the way her one comment which I was agreeing with, in principle.  If "the law" was just a simple matter of "obey or die,"  none of us would be here today. Jesus said it pretty clear that there is no way to "obey" on our own, and that the ONLY way, anywhere in Scripture, that could be seen as "obeying" would be IF we love Jesus. (see John 14:15). Its impossible to "obey" unless we love our Lord. Its impossible to love someone we do not know. And its impossible to say that the commandments are not also enablings for the simple reason that every one of them tell us something of the character of God.  Further; we are told that by God's promises, (such as the 10 commandments) we WILL "partake of the divine nature." (see 2 Pet 1:4).

Seeing how God enacts one of His "commandments" or promises in our daily life, is clearly the best way to know Jesus. (see John 17:3), for it is eternal life to know Him. We can know Him by His commandments. We can know Him better when "if you love me you will be able to keep my commandments." (John 14:15)

I did not cook anything up, I only went by what you said. You stated you felt that Rachel was correct. Now, for the record I will alway stand and speak about obedience. For as the promise I understand it was originally given to the Adams in the Garden.

Now, I agree with what you are saying can I say THE HOLY SPIRIT is THE ONE who assist us. We have to stop sinning ourselves but HE gives us strength as we continue to pray and choose to do right because like you said through love. Then by doing right we become changed daily until we completely stop sinning. Then THE HOLY SPIRIT seals us and YAHSHUA RIGHTEOUSNESS is given and we stand before THE FATHER and THE SON by THEIR grace our names remain in the Book of LIFE! That all I wanted to add if you don't mind?

Blessings!

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/25/2019 at 12:19 AM, stinsonmarri said:

If you will noticed, Paul wrote a book called Hebrews, not Jews or Judah.

Personally, I don't believe Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews.   He always identified himself as the author of his other epistles.  He always opened with greetings from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  This greeting is missing from the Letter to the Hebrews.  The style of writing is not like his other epistles (according to scholars who can recognize such things). 

The identity of the author has been debated for centuries. 

[BlessedMan]

34 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If you will noticed, Paul wrote a book called Hebrews, not Jews or Judah.

This is actually a point that simply does not prove anything about "under the law," and I would add that as long as it is the bible, for me, it doesnt matter who wrote it. "All scripture"  is profitable for what?

1/ doctrine,

2/ reproof,

3/  correction,

4/  instruction in righteousness,

In fact; it IS in this very sense/context that the Christian is still "under the law" today; but perhaps, or hopefully, with a slightly different perspective once we become "converted."

[JoeMo]

From the OT:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord. (Jer. 31:31 37)

On this day, we will no longer be under law.  We won't need a law, because we will instinctively do the Lord's will.  We won't need to teach people God's Law, because evryone will instinctively know and follow it.  No more need to make a supreme effort to submit and obet any more.  It will come just as naturally as breathing.

[BlessedMan]

10 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

submit and obet

LOL, I noticed you cannot even spell the word "obey." Is there a message somewhere in that for us/you?

[8thdaypriest]

When Paul wrote 2Timothy, the only "Scriptures" were the OT. 

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"   (NKJ)

The two words I highlighted, were added into the text.  What Paul actually wrote is that "all Scripture inspired of God is profitable". 

There were many writings claiming to be inspired, that were not.  The Greek word translated as "scripture" simply means

1) a writing, thing written 2) used to denote either the book itself, or its contents  (This according to Strong's.) 

Yes, the Christians collected the writings of those who had first person interaction with Christ.  We Christians today believe those writings were also inspired. 

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

LOL, I noticed you cannot even spell the word "obey." Is there a message somewhere in that for us/you?

You're getting rather dismissive BlessedMan.  And not in a nice way.

[BlessedMan]

1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You're getting rather dismissive BlessedMan.  And not in a nice way.

I guess you have your Judge's hat on here. It was totally in jest, and nothing else.

[8thdaypriest]

16 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

From the OT:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord. (Jer. 31:31 37)

On this day, we will no longer be under law.  We won't need a law, because we will instinctively do the Lord's will.  We won't need to teach people God's Law, because evryone will instinctively know and follow it.  No more need to make a supreme effort to submit and obet any more.  It will come just as naturally as breathing.

While I agree wholeheartedly that the Law will be instilled in our minds/hearts so that we will live it without effort, I still think we will regard ourselves as "under" God our Father.  He will still be far above us - in authority and position.  We will regard HIM as "head of all".  He is even "head of Christ". 

In that sense, we will be "under" HIM because HE will be our "Head".   And if we are "under" HIM, then will we not also be "under" His law?  Or maybe living within His law, would be a better way to describe it.

[8thdaypriest]

4 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

I guess you have your Judge's hat on here. It was totally in jest, and nothing else.

OK.  I just remember that SM is very sensitive about her struggle with spelling and expressing English. 

[BlessedMan]

4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

OK.  I just remember that SM is very sensitive about her struggle with spelling and expressing English. 

Well; I have no idea who SM is; but the post I quoted that from was made by JoeMo, above

26 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

On this day, we will no longer be under law.  We won't need a law, because we will instinctively do the Lord's will.  We won't need to teach people God's Law, because evryone will instinctively know and follow it.  No more need to make a supreme effort to submit and obet any more.  It will come just as naturally as breathing.

 

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Personally, I don't believe Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews.   He always identified himself as the author of his other epistles.  He always opened with greetings from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  This greeting is missing from the Letter to the Hebrews.  The style of writing is not like his other epistles (according to scholars who can recognize such things). 

The identity of the author has been debated for centuries. 

Rachel: I know it was Paul who wrote the Book of Hebrews. Being a Rabbi of the law at one time and he stated in Galatian that he was into Judaism. Not IsraEL which is why earlier I explained about the Pharisees. That is why they persecuted those who called themselves THE WAY!

They were the main ones along with the priest who wanted YAHSHUA killed. Their form of religion had not become dominant at the time but that is what he believed. In that case, he knew about the priesthood and knew more about the Mosaic law and understood that bulls and goats could never take away sin. Also he was very educated in Hebrew history and knew about Melchizedek. Paul was sincere in his Judaic faith even though it was incorrect, he claimed he was "zealous in the tradition of his fathers!"  Notice the word tradition which is important. Not in the faith of IsraEL but traditions of his fathers. Read Gal Chapter 1. Paul was chosen because he knew the Judaic traditions and could stand up against the Pharisees that is what made him important. Plus many had fallen into Hellenistic beliefs like we have today! 

Finally, he was an extremely educated man, he was on the road to Damascus which is Syria, to persecute the believers of YAHSHUA! He had the documents and the knowledge to deal with a different country. This man was well rounded to work with the Greeks, Latins and Galatians all who were Gentiles belonging to Japheth!

In the Book of Hebrews, it clearly showed he now accepted the true IsraEL faith and he wrote that the Hebrew people were still on milk when they should have been on milk. He knew because he realized that was also his problem as well and now he is pointing the new IsraEL in Revelation because he truly understand the Sanctuary that also was in Daniel!

Blessings!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Or maybe living within His law, would be a better way to describe it.

Yes, a better way.  We will still be living within His Law; but we won't be thinking "I must obey God, I must obey God!".

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Personally, I don't believe Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews.

Many others (including me) aren't so sure of Paul's authorship.  I have read that the writing style (particularly in the Greek) is stylistically different than in Paul's other writings.There are even some who don't believe Hebrews should be included in the NT because of some of the doctrinal statements made that are exclusive to the Book of Hebrews.

Frankly, I don't care who the author is; it is one of my favorite NT Books.

[BlessedMan]

43 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Yes, a better way.  We will still be living within His Law; but we won't be thinking "I must obey God, I must obey God!".

Well; Id have to disagree here. I think this was the whole problem from the very get-go; and the angels who thought like this then, would be followed by others who would again think just like that. Opposition to the law of God had its beginning in the courts of heaven, with Lucifer, the covering cherub. Satan determined to be first in the councils of heaven, and equal with God. He began his work of rebellion with the angels under his command, seeking to diffuse among them the spirit of discontent.

Quote

And there was war in Heaven. Michael and his angels warring against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels warred, (Rev 12:7)

The Bible says what would happen if any future heavenly beings were to not think about obeying God's law:

Quote

but did not prevail. Nor was place found for them in Heaven any more. (Rev 12:8)

If there's any such thing in heaven such as free-will, and I don't know why there wouldn't be, then we do have to think about God's law:

In so deceptive a way did Lucifer work that the sentiments which he laid out could not be dealt with until they had developed in the minds of those who received them.  The influence of mind on mind, so strong a power for good when sanctified, is equally strong for evil in the hands of those opposed to God...of course, there will be those who chime in to say: "we wont need free will in heaven," but that definitely doesnt sound right. IMO

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

OK.  I just remember that SM is very sensitive about her struggle with spelling and expressing English. 

Rachel: I wasn't sensitive, I express the truth. I have a problem with grammar and I explained why. How is that sensitive and why didn't you ask me? You know I am not perfect, I have flaws and I am not ashamed to admit then. Joe gave me a compliment but like Blessed Man stated I had problem that the had a hard time understanding. Now Blessed Man (Wander) helped me by telling me about Grammar and it has helped me a WHOLE LOT! That what we all are here for to uplift one another and I needed some uplifting with my grammar. That's a blessing! If you see a mistake please let me know! Thanks!

Be blessed!

[BlessedMan]

1 minute ago, stinsonmarri said:

Rachel: I wasn't sensitive, I express the truth. I have a problem with grammar and I explained why. How is that sensitive and why didn't you ask me? You know I am not perfect, I have flaws and I am not ashamed to admit then. Joe gave me a compliment but like Blessed Man stated I had problem that the had a hard time understanding. Now Blessed Man (Wander) helped me by telling me about Grammar and it has helped me a WHOLE LOT! That what we all are here for to uplift one another and I needed some uplifting with my grammar. That's a blessing! If you see a mistake please let me know! Thanks!

Be blessed!

OK Now I know who SM is! lol Hope you are well, and be glad you dont have all the snow we have here tonight!

[stinsonmarri]

2 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

OK Now I know who SM is! lol Hope you are well, and be glad you dont have all the snow we have here tonight!

You know you have a great sense of humor and I love it! That is what so special about you! I also love your frankness too and it helps me to be on top of it even if I give dissertations at times!

Love ya and be blessed!

[BlessedMan]

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

You know you have a great sense of humor and I love it! That is what so special about you! I also love your frankness too and it helps me to be on top of it even if I give dissertations at times!

Love ya and be blessed!

lol, I actually did that with my sunglasses today when I slipped and fell on some ice!

 

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Well; Id have to disagree here. I think this was the whole problem from the very get-go; and the angels who thought like this then, would be followed by others who would again think just like that.

If God says that sin and death would no longer rear their ugly heads for all eternity, I have to believe that is the case.  While with free will I imagine that temptation (from within ourselves) may always be around; but no sentient being - angel or human - will ever give into it again.  When our bodies are changed from corruptible to incorruptible, or genetic predisposition to sin will be changed into a genetic predisposition to obey.

 

14 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

OK Now I know who SM is! lol Hope you are well, and be glad you dont have all the snow we have here tonight!

Tell me about the snow! It's 14 degrees Fahrenheit here now with a foot of snow on the ground and another foot expected by Thursday morning; along with below zero wind chills.  I hate winter; and it came to Denver about 6 weeks early.  Grateful for the moisture, though.

[BlessedMan]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Tell me about the snow! It's 14 degrees Fahrenheit here now with a foot of snow on the ground and another foot expected by Thursday morning; along with below zero wind chills

Wow, I am impressed! lol Colorado has us beat for snow! I think its only around minus 8 Celsius here, which is basically still no-coat weather for me, unless I am going out hiking.

I am an odd-ball. I love winter, and snow. I am  often the first/only one to go outside for a walk when a snowstorm hits. I have always enjoyed the elements. They remind me of God's protection. I mean, who is going to come out and bother me with anything if I am in the middle of a blizzard somewhere? "There is peace in the eye of the storm." :)

[8thdaypriest]

The Letter to the Hebrews may have been written by Priscilla, wife of Aquila.  Both were leaders of the Church of Ephesus for years, along with Timothy. 

The learned Apollos became the pupil of Priscilla and Aquila (Acts 18:26).  "They took him aside and expounded to him the way of God more accurately."  If Apollos was "mighty in the scriptures" ( Acts 18:24) then so was Priscilla.  If Apollos was a cultured Greek so also was Priscilla.  She would have been of equal status, or he would not have accepted her tutelage.  Her role in teaching Apollos reveals her as one who was comparable to him in learning, spiritual insight, and experience in the mission field.   

It is most interesting that Luke names Priscilla before her husband Aquila, as the more important tutor of Apollos.  There are six references to Priscilla, and four times her name is written before that of her husband. 

Priscilla and her husband were wealthy citizens of Rome, who had fled during the persecution of Claudius, who banished all Jews from Rome.  (This means that Priscilla and/or her husband were Jews.)  The author of Hebrews closes with "They of Italy greet you" (Heb 13:24) - meaning the Letter could well have been written by an ex-patriot of Rome now living outside of Rome.  Tradition places Aquila's house was on the estate of a Roman senator who was converted by Peter. 

They fled to Corinth, where a close friendship with Paul ensued.  Paul actually lived with them (Acts 18:3).  When he sailed for Syria, he took Priscilla and Aquila with him (Acts 18:18).  They were co-leaders of a house-church at Rome, and again at Corinth, and again at Ephesus (ICor 16:19).   Only the wealthy would have homes large enough to accommodate frequent gatherings of many people for worship. 

After spending all that time with Paul, I think we can assume that Priscilla could then convey Paul's understanding concerning all things Messiah, as well as all things concerning the priesthood and the sacrificial system.  Some actually believe that Priscilla acted as secretary for Paul, something that might account for the polished Greek in some of his letters.

The reason the author of the Letter to the Hebrews is not named, may very well be because she was a woman.