How human was Jesus?

June 4, 2006

How *human* do you think Jesus was? The stock answer that Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine doesn't really answer what I want to explore. I *know* He is God and came in the flesh, born of Mary. I know He was sinless. I know that. However, sometimes, when reading the Bible account of Jesus' life, it doesn't seem to me that He was very human at all. He had the EFFECTS of humanity thrust on Him - real pain, real agony, real sadness. But did He ever look at a sweet Jewish girl and think she was pretty? Do you think He ever stubbed his toe on a rock in the middle of the night and thought something other than, *Bless this rock my Father has made*? IOW, do you think Jesus had human foibles? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> To be honest, I'd like to think He *did.* - it would make it a lot easier to relate to Him. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

June 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

rudywoofs said:How *human* do you think Jesus was?

How human was Adam after the fall? How human are you and I? From where did we originate?

Let me share with you what the Bible states:

Acts 17:26 From one man he [God] made [past tense] every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. [NIV]

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. [KJV]

Ps 139:13 For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, [:"red"]And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth.[/] 16 Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. [NASB]

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God....[NIV]

NASB says, "Concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh...."

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, [:"Red"]born of a woman[/], born under the Law....[NASB]

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. [NIV]

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me...."[NIV]

What are your conclusions from just a few quotes? [There are many more]

Rob

June 4, 2006

[]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/yeti.jpg[/]

Ehrmmm.... my conclusion is that my question and subsequent explanation of it somehow got translated into a prehistoric language of grunts and snorts - so for that reason you hadn't a clue what I was asking. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/]

June 4, 2006

I can't answer all your questions, because I don't know the answer.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

But did He ever look at a sweet Jewish girl and think she was pretty?

No doubt he did. I don't doubt (don't tell anyone) that he felt some sexual desire for her. That's not sin. That's normal. How we handle those normal desires is what matters.

One point, however, I would differ with you. Nothing was "thrust" on Jesus. He chose to become a member of the human race, with all its limitations, forever. That voluntary choice tells me a lot about Him.

Whether he stubbed his toe, and what he said about it-- I just don't know.

June 4, 2006

Thanks, Ed. That's actually the kind of answer I was looking for... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nothing was "thrust" on Jesus. He chose to become a member of the human race, with all its limitations, forever. That voluntary choice tells me a lot about Him.

By "thrust" I meant that Jesus was the recipient of the human actions (good and bad) by humans. Maybe that isn't right? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Since Jesus is still human, but is in heaven, what are the limitations still imposed on Him? []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/]

June 4, 2006

Hello Pam I can sympathise with your questions for I have asked them myself. I doubt there are many answers and too few theology types who are willing to admit like Ed does, that that they simply dont know.

mel

June 4, 2006

I see. Well, yes, then human emotions were contiually thrust on him. A tidal wave of hatred, lust, greed-- things you and I don't even notice-- came at him every day.

But he also experienced human emotions, including the negative ones: anger, grief, fear. For although he was divine, he was also human. He trusted His Father perfectly, but through the fear, not in its absence. The ordeal of the Cross caused him to sweat blood, but He still chose His Father's will.

In heaven? Well, He's limited to His human body. He can no longer be omnipresent--present everywhere at once. Since He is One with the Father and the Spirit, Who Are omnipresent, He can remain all-knowing.

He is the only One who will bear scars throughout eternity. We will be made new, and perfect, but He will retain his scars.

I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them at the moment.

The amazing thing is that He remains One with the human race, too. From SIGNS Dec 2004.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

God with Us. Sometimes we lose track of the permanence of the gift God gave us. It’s easy to think that Jesus was human for only the 30-plus years He lived in Palestine. It is almost beyond belief that God didn’t loan us His Son only to take Christ away after He had served a “tour of duty” as a human. Christ agreed to become a human being, knowing it would be a one-way trip, with no turning back. And here we begin to glimpse the magnitude of the gift we have in Jesus. “To us a child is born, to us a son is given.” Christ has become a human for all eternity. In Jesus Christ, God and Man are eternally reunited.

Once we understand God’s great gift of presence, we do not give to emulate the Magi. Rather, we celebrate the birth of Jesus, God’s great gift! In coming together for this occasion, we celebrate the eternal reunion of God and Man! The event we celebrate at Christmas represents God’s ultimate antidote for loneliness, the divine affirmation that we were not meant to be alone. Appreciation of this tremendous truth led Paul to write: “I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Of course not. Forever united in the very Person of Christ, God and Man can never be separated again.

June 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

In heaven? Well, He's limited to His human body. He can no longer be omnipresent--present everywhere at once. Since He is One with the Father and the Spirit, Who Are omnipresent, He can remain all-knowing.

OMG! []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_eek.gif[/] Wow! Really? OMG! He gave up one of His eternal attributes for the likes of humans?! I am.....speechless!

June 4, 2006

Pam, Jesus is our Creator as well as our Redeemer. From what I see in nature, I can tell that He is a lover of the beautiful

He is a lover, in the highest sense. Of course he could see beauty in a woman. He even goes beyond the physical aspect to see a person's inner beauty. He sees beauty in a woman when other men and women don't

Thanks, Ed for sharing your thoughts

June 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

OMG! Wow! Really? OMG! He gave up one of His eternal attributes for the likes of humans?! I am.....speechless!

And not just for humans, collectively. He did it for each one of us, personally. He did it for you.

Jesus was faced with losing some of his divine attributes eternally, or retaining them all to live eternally without you. He chose to give up some of his divine attributes, forever, to give you the opportunity to live with Him eternally.

It's staggering.

June 4, 2006

Re: "But did He ever look at a sweet Jewish girl and think she was pretty? Do you think He ever stubbed his toe on a rock in the middle of the night and thought something other than, *Bless this rock my Father has made*?"

Pam, it is not sin to look at a woman and be aware of her attractivness.

Of course I think that Christ looked at some Ruth walking down the street in Nazarath and knew she was attractive.

Yes, he may have thought something other than what you have asked when he stubbed his toe on a rock.

Who knows what Jesus thought? I (and everyone else) can only speculate.

You have not described sin. Christ could acknowledge an attractive woman and not sin. Christ as a male surely experienced what I experience as a male. I recognize attractive women walking down the street.

June 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I recognize attractive women walking down the street.

[]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/faint2.gif[/] <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I know it isn't sin to do what I had described. It's just that it always seemed like people talk about Jesus as if He only had "lofty" holy thoughts and I wanted to know if I was the only person on earth who thought differently - that there *has* to be more to Jesus than Someone who told parables and walked on water - that He is actually someone who I can understand as a real person. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

June 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Ed Dickerson said:

In heaven? Well, He's limited to His human body. He can no longer be omnipresent--present everywhere at once. Since He is One with the Father and the Spirit, Who Are omnipresent, He can remain all-knowing.

I don't believe He's limited by anything. He's God, and could be omnipresent if He wanted to.

June 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

rudywoofs said:<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

It's just that it always seemed like people talk about Jesus as if He only had "lofty" holy thoughts and I wanted to know if I was the only person on earth who thought differently....

The mind of Christ, as a man, was fully surrendered to the Spirit of God. In fact He was conceived as we are born again, i.e., with God' Spirit in Him.

Yes, our nature introduced all types of sinful thoughts to His mind, but He never retained a sinful propensity by even a thought.

"Not even by a thought did He yield to temptation....Christ's humanity was united with divinity; He was fitted for the conflict by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit." [CD 152]

Now read Matthew 5:28 "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

According to the Spirit of the law if I look at a woman sexually, even for 1 ms, I have said yes to the desires of my flesh in my mind. That's sin even though I didn't commit the act! This Jesus never did.

Rob

June 4, 2006

There is a body of Christian thought that Christ, in taking our human body, did assume some eternal limitations. If that it true, it does not mean that he lacks the power to transend thoe limitations. But, it may mean that for reasons which we do not understand, voluntarly eternally limited himself in some ways.

NOTE: If my sentences in the above paragraph mutually contradict, that is evidence of my humanness. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

In any case, our ignorance on this subject exceeds our knowledge.

June 4, 2006

I agree with you...there is a contradiction.

June 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

According to the Spirit of the law if I look at a woman sexually, even for 1 ms, I have said yes to the desires of my flesh in my mind.

This once again demonstrates a near total lack of knowledge. It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't coupled with certainty. As someone once said, "Often wrong but never in doubt."

The notion that sexual desire equals lust is a Greek notion traceable to Plato, along with the body/soul dichotomy.

It is not Biblical.

Now, I would be deeply surprised if this didn't lead to an avalanche of texts attempting to prove that desire = lust. It is safe to predict that they will all repeat the same mistake, but with increasing shrillness.

June 4, 2006

Pam: The thought that Robert has presented here is held by some in the SDA Chruch, but not by all.

Doctrinal truth is not determined by numbers. I am not saying that Robert is wrong.

I am simply saying that some posting here will disagree with Robert. This in one of the doctrinal areas in which not all SDAs agree. Consider the positions presented, and accept with what you believe is Biblical, and to which you are led by the Holy Spirit.

If you feel that is Roberts position, fine.

If you feel that is another position, so be it.

I consider the following to be the crucial element in this discussion. Christ had to be tempted in the same manner that I am tempted.

I do not believe that the temptation is sin. If temptation is sin, then either Christ was not tempted, which is Biblically false, or by being tempted Christ sinned, which is also Biblically false.

Robert says: ". . . if I look at a woman sexually, even for 1 ms, I have said yes to the desires of my flesh in my mind."

I disagree with that position. In my thinking a "no" answer is not giving in to the desires of my flesh and mind.

To me, if Christ never had a sexual thought, he never was temped in that area. That is where I am. That is where other SDAs are. What Robert has laid out is where some SDAs are. We disagree. Decide yourself which position is Biblical, and that of the Holy Spirit.

June 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Sid said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Ed Dickerson said:

In heaven? Well, He's limited to His human body....

I don't believe He's limited by anything. He's God, and could be omnipresent if He wanted to.

Jesus is God. He has always been God, and He will always be God.

At the incarnation Jesus [the Son of God] voluntarily handed the independent use of His Divine prerogatives to His Father. In return God united the Holy Spirit with our corporate, fallen life in the womb of Mary. Since Mary was sinful, the humanity indwelt by God's Spirit was sinful. This humanity was called "the Son of man."

For 33 + years "the Son of Man" fully surrendered to the Spirit within Him. Hence He lived a perfect life with respect to God's law. Yet because this humanity was sinful by nature (by birth), it had to die the eternal 2nd death.

At the resurrection God didn't raise our old humanity. No, He left it in the grave, i.e., in left sin in the grave. Instead He raised the Son of Man with a glorified humanity, free from indwelling sin. This humanity was unlike the fallen humanity before the resurrection in 3 ways:

1] It was sinless

2] It was immortal

3] It could appear and disappear and walk through walls.

Remember that we are told that we will be like the angels. Are angels human? Not really.

June 5, 2006

Re: "The notion that sexual desire equals lust is a Greek notion traceable to Plato, along with the body/soul dichotomy.

It is not Biblical."

I strongly agree.

June 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:Robert says: ". . . if I look at a woman sexually, even for 1 ms, I have said yes to the desires of my flesh in my mind."

To me, if Christ never had a sexual thought, he never was tempted in that area.

Hold on...

The humanity that Christ was made had in it what Paul terms "the law of sin". Let's look at this:

Romans 7:22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man [the renewed mind], 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind....

Okay....The humanity that was assumed was our humanity after the fall. At the incarnation God's Spirit dwelt in that humanity during the process of its development. As the Son of Man, Christ was born as we are born again. So that humanity was born "spiritually alive." His mind was in harmony with God's law from the moment of conception.

In this humanity the mind was tempted with every temptation known to mankind. From where does temptation come? "The law of sin" - the sinful nature.

So our sinful nature - our bent to self [selfishness, self-love, self-seeking...you name it] introduced temptations [through the senses] into Christ's mind. But immediately Christ said "no" to the inclinations of the flesh. He never entertained the thought of saying yes to the flesh.

You see if I am tempted to look at a woman sexually, that's not sin. However the fact that I retain a sinful nature does make me a sinner in of itself, but that's not the discussion here.

If I say "yes" to the sexual temptation for even a moment, I have sinned. If I look with lust, my mind has said yes to the flesh. This Jesus never did.

Does that clear things up, Gregory?

June 5, 2006

"The infinite value of the sacrifice required for our redemption reveals the fact that sin is a tremendous evil. Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart [the mind - the seat of emotions and thoughts], and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil." [8T 312]

Of course she is talking about life without God's Spirit.

Bottom line? Our desires have been perverted by the fall. If we are to reflect Christ's life we must surrender our minds to the Spirit. When we do this "the law of the Spirit" can say "no" to the law of sin at that moment. But that's another subject (you know, Christian living)

My thoughts,

Rob

June 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:If I say "yes" to sexual temptation for even a moment, I have sinned. If I look with lust, my mind has said yes to the flesh. This Jesus never did.

There's this Christian guy at work that like's looking at women. And no, he's not looking at their pretty faces; he's watching their buttocks wiggle as they walk down the hall. [Not to graphic I hope? Rating: PG]

I kidded him one day, “You know you are lusting, right?” He disagreed. I said, “Then why are your eyes on her butt instead of her face.” Well he didn’t like that, but he said it wasn’t sin. I disagree. Here’s why:

If I am sitting at lunch and look up and see this “babe” immediately my flesh goes crazy. Now please don’t tell me guys, that your flesh doesn’t gear up. It does…and it tempts the mind to place the eyes on areas that have to do with sexuality. So the moment my eyes go to a woman’s breast or butt, my mind has said yes to the flesh. I have sinned.

That’s the way I see it. Of course I am not condemned for it because I am not under law, but yet I realize I have a deceitful human nature and I need Christ if I want to experience saying “no” to it….

Okay, Pam...sorry...I'm drifting off the subject maybe?

Rob

June 5, 2006

I changed the wording on one paragraph:

So our sinful nature - our bent to self [selfishness, self-love, self-seeking...you name it] introduced temptations [through the senses] into Christ's mind. But immediately Christ said "no" to the inclinations of the flesh. He never entertained the thought of saying yes to the flesh.

FYI,

Rob

June 5, 2006

Jesus was 100% human, and 100% divine.

DB

Sign In

How human was Jesus?

Recommended Posts

rudywoofs (Pam)

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Robert

rudywoofs (Pam)

there buster

rudywoofs (Pam)

melvin mccarty

there buster

rudywoofs (Pam)

Gail

there buster

Gregory Matthews

rudywoofs (Pam)

Pockey

Robert

Gregory Matthews

Pockey

there buster

Gregory Matthews

Robert

Gregory Matthews

Robert

Robert

Robert

Robert

Kountzer

Join the conversation

Browse

Activity

Sign In

How *human* was Jesus?

Recommended Posts

rudywoofs (Pam)

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Robert

rudywoofs (Pam)

there buster

rudywoofs (Pam)

melvin mccarty

there buster

rudywoofs (Pam)

Gail

there buster

Gregory Matthews

rudywoofs (Pam)

Pockey

Robert

Gregory Matthews

Pockey

there buster

Gregory Matthews

Robert

Gregory Matthews

Robert

Robert

Robert

Robert

Kountzer

Join the conversation

Browse

Activity

How human was Jesus?