How human was Jesus?

June 5, 2006

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Robert said:So the moment my eyes go to a woman’s breast or butt, my mind has said yes to the flesh. I have sinned.

King David. What sin do you think of when his name is mentioned? Right, adultery...Bathsheba. When did David's mind say "yes" to his fallen nature?

2 Samuel 11:12 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace.

Walking isn't sin....<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful,

She probably wasn't real close if I had a guess, but close enough for David to see her beauty and maybe some other things.

Anyway here David is "admiring" her beauty, right (so we say)? When did his mind say "okay" to temptation (and the flesh will tempt)?

verse 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?”

Okay, his mind has entertained something....Just like Eve inquisitively going to the tree....David's mind is now serving the flesh. Even if she wasn't married his mind is on sex! And according to the Bible sex outside marriage is fornication, right?

Now follows action:

4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came me to him, and he slept with her....

When I sin outwardly it's because inwardly [in my mind] I have consented to the flesh. The nature is terrible, huh? Sometimes we aren’t even aware of it because it seems so natural. The feet, as EGW says, imperceptibly moves towards evil….

Not with Christ!!!

Rob

June 5, 2006

Hey Pam

I hear you say that you want to relate to Jesus, bring Him down to earth! Me too. Fact is He came down to Earth to do just that. What do you want to do with Him? What sought of relationship do you want to have with this God Man?

I hear you say in your post that you want to know that He struggled like we do, that He really suffered.

I think He came to show us that we can be like Him, and can have the power that He had. This is evident in Acts. Maybe we denie ourselves what Jesus had. Maybe we need to see Him as God more so that we can ignore our humanness for a while. In fact, I am quite sure this is the case Jesus and Paul present in the Bible. We need to set our minds on the things of Heaven, because our humanness is very temporary. If this is not true, than being Christian is pointless.

June 5, 2006

Yes, Christ is the Son of God and the Son of Man.

On temptation:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust [his own nature], and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived [when the mind yields (this is sin)], it bringeth forth sin [it brings outward actions]: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death [the wages of sin is death].

Every sin we commit is because somewhere we said "yes"...or said "no" but in our own strength. As Christ says, "You can do somethings without me". No? Oh, "You can do nothing (i.e., nothing good) without me."

Wow,

Rob

ps: BTW...sin doesn't always lead to outward actions. I can lust inwardly without doing the outward deed or I can "covet" something without buying or stealing it....All inward sins...sins of the mind, I guess?

June 5, 2006

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rudywoofs said:But did He ever look at a sweet Jewish girl and think she was pretty?

The mind of Christ wasn't attracted to the superficial things that our human nature finds appealing.

Example:

1 Sam. 16:6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, “Surely the LORD’s anointed stands here before the LORD.” 7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. [:"Red"]The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” [/] [NIV]

June 5, 2006

Ermmm, temptation by itself can't be sinful, I don't think. Wouldn't it become sin only when the temptation to do something evil was purposefully and willingfully acted upon? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

June 5, 2006

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rudywoofs said:Ermmm, temptation by itself can't be sinful, I don't think. Wouldn't it become sin only when the temptation to do something evil was purposefully and willingfully acted upon? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Before I reply first let me say this:

As far as God is concerned you are absolutely spotless in His Son Jesus Christ. You are no longer "under law", but rather "under grace" - God's unconditional love towards you....

What helps me to stay with Jesus by faith is two-fold:

1] I see a God who loves me more than Himself....His ambition is to live for me. Amazing!

2] The more I realize how sinful I am the more I need His righteousness in place of my unrighteousness. This doesn't mean that I am not growing in grace....

Okay...now I can give you some bad news (knowing you are accepted in the beloved):

The fact that we retain a sinful nature makes us sinners! Of course God doesn't blame us for being sinful by nature. We inherited that from Adam [see Rom 5:12-21].

To answer your question: It's true that until you consent to temptation your mind hasn't sinned. Yet the fact that temptation comes from within makes us sinners in and of itself. Some proof?

Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts [i.e., the mind and sin were in complete harmony]. Like the rest, we were [by performance, no] by nature objects of wrath.

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Please note that David was a sinner not when he outwardly sinned, but by conception! Why? He had a sinful nature. This in and of itself disqualifies us for heaven. That's why we have to receive a glorified life (free from indwelling sin) when Christ returns.

Now this doesn't mean that we can't mature in our walk with Christ....It just means that we have to give up on the idea that anything we do good [i.e., Christ does in us] merits heaven.

Got to go,

Rob

June 5, 2006

I'm getting uncomfortably confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

June 5, 2006

I am a little concerned for you here Pam. I think to much theology is unhealthy. I also believe that it is in the midst of confusing that Satan enters in. I think he uses all of the tensions we have to face to tare us apart so that while we are confused, numbed, he can start dropping in synical suggestions like "Can I believe any of this?".

That is why I have chosen to stay on the narrow road of fundamentalism (I used to hate <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> the idea of being fundamentalist). I once considered myself to be very liberal and I thought I was intelectual enough to deal with all of the questions. Fool me! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> So it is back to basics. While I might consider myself fundamentalist in my theology today, I am not rigid and there lies a difference. I love God and people more than theolgy. If it all gets to much for you in here, please go back to the Gospel, Matthew-John and remind yourself who it is all about.

June 5, 2006

Re: "I think to much theology is unhealthy."

There is some truth in the above.

The Holy Spirit is responsible for our spiritual nurture. This involves the HS presenting truth to us when in our spiritual journey we are ready for it. There is so much to learn, so much to grow, that God cannot present the sum total of spiritual knowledge to any human at once. Spiritual maturity is progressive.

Sometimes humans go off on thier own agenda, and attempt to present spiritual truth before the person is ready for it.

As an illustration: The Sabbath should not be presented before one is a Christian. What is the Sabbath without Christ?

June 5, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

I'm getting uncomfortably confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pam -

Robert teaches a high degree of error mixed in with his statements. Always.

It is why I no longer read his posts. The Bible has one thing only to say about doctrine that confuses. And it says it more than once.

1 Timothy 1:3-7 says this "3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia--remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, 6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm."

Paul is then even more explicit in his second letter to Timothy. In 2 Timothy 2:14 he states, "14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers."

We are also told that Abba is NOT the author of confusion. If you find yourself confused, back away and go back to the basics of Jesus true and undying Love for you, even before you knew Him, that He would give up His place of honor in heaven, even some of His divine attributes, for YOU, because His Love for you is so great that to be without you is worse then death.

Cling to that, and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth as is promised.

Robert's version is toxic.

June 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert teaches a high degree of error mixed in with his statements. Always.

....

Robert's version is toxic.

Precisely. Or as a friend of mine used to say, "Often wrong but never in doubt."

June 6, 2006

"Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine"

One should step back a few paces and consider how foolish that much-touted statement is.

No Jesus was a son of God and a son of Mary. No need for making a mystery out of it.

mel

June 6, 2006

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Clio said: Robert's version is toxic.

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Ed Dickerson said: Precisely. Or as a friend of mine used to say, "Often wrong but never in doubt."

Calling on moderator Gregory Matthews.

This is the beginning of a set of subtle attacks that leads to nowhere good! I am not going to succumb to my nature, so I ask you in fairness that you delete these posts....If they wish to disprove me I say bring it on!

Rob

June 6, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

I'm getting uncomfortably confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I can help....First Greg has to do something about those trying to start a fight. I usually fire back, not this time. Greg needs to moderate....

Rob

June 6, 2006

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps....23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

This is my aim,

Rob

June 6, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

I'm getting uncomfortably confused. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Here are the fundamentals of the gospel:

1. God created all men in one man — i.e., in Adam [Acts 17:26].

2. Satan ruined all men in one man — i.e., in Adam [Romans 5:12, 18].

3. God redeemed all men in one man — i.e., in Christ [Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2].

Where do you want to start?

As a new Christian it is imperative that you understand "the gospel"!

Sincerely,

Rob

June 6, 2006

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps....23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

June 6, 2006

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Robert said:...

the god of this world [:"Red"]has blinded the minds of the unbelieving[/], that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. ...

[]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_eek.gif[/] []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_sad.gif[/] []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_cry.gif[/]

June 6, 2006

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everyday said:I am a little concerned for you here Pam. I think to much theology is unhealthy.

The gospel is not theology! Without the gospel we are in darkness. We need to understand the gospel. If not, why even crack your Bible open?

Rob

June 6, 2006

Here are the basics:

The gospel in a nutshell

June 6, 2006

Quote:

"But before Adam and Eve began the multiplication process (had any children) they sinned. Therefore, the life that Adam passed on to his children, his posterity, was a life that had already sinned. Since the life that you and I were born with is an extension of Adam’s life, it is a life that stands condemned, a life that must die."

Not only the life that you and I were born with is an extension of Adam’s life, but our individual body is also an extension of Adam's body, all the cells in our body are extensions of Adam's body cells. We are actually living in Adam's sinful body.

When Christ returns, God will give each one of us an extension of Christ's resurrected body to live by. We shall actually be living in Christ's sinless body. Only then we shall be able to live a sinless life. As long as we live in Adam's sinful body, we shall continue sinning.

June 6, 2006

Robert:

In this thread and another, Pam has told you that your posts have been confusing. As I recall, she has also told you that you have not spoken to the issues that she has raised, or perhaps blown her off. She has said this about some other people also. The essence of this is that she is spiritually struggling.

I can understand her comment that some posts of yours have confused her. Yesterday I reviewed a post of yours. I asked myself what you had said. In the end I decided that I had some agreement with it, but I found it to be very confusing. I needed to work at it very hard to determine what you had said.

In an earlier post in this thread I made the following comment:

“The Holy Spirit is responsible for our spiritual nurture. This involves the HS presenting truth to us when in our spiritual journey we are ready for it. There is so much to learn, so much to grow, that God cannot present the sum total of spiritual knowledge to any human at once. Spiritual maturity is progressive.

Sometimes humans go off on their own agenda, and attempt to present spiritual truth before the person is ready for it.”

I think that applies to you. I think that you push an agenda upon people without really knowing where they are spiritually, and whether or not they are ready for you to do so. I see you doing this before you have built a relationship with them that would allow you to do so.

Speaking very frankly, Robert, when you do such, your message can be toxic to that person. It can push them away from Christ.

Pam is essentially telling you that you are doing such. A part of this is your style, and your forcefulness in pushing your agenda upon a person who is not ready for it. Trust the leading of the Holy Spirit. The HS is in charge of Pam’s spiritual development. Be willing to wait for the HS to tell you that the time is right for you to speak to someone (you do this with others also.).

June 6, 2006

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yongttay said:

Not only the life that you and I were born with is an extension of Adam’s life, but our individual body is also an extension of Adam's body, all the cells in our body are extensions of Adam's body cells. We are actually living in Adam's sinful body.

Excellent observation! You are correct. For example, if I pour arsenic at the mouth of a pristine river what happens to everything down river? Right, the whole of the river is ruined.

Likewise Adam's sin ruined the human race residing in him. David states that he was born a sinner. At birth an infant isn't exactly committing outward transgressions, so how could David label himself a sinner at birth [see Ps 51:5]? Ah, David was a sinner by nature...he was a sinner because at conception he received Adam's fallen life - a life that stood condemned "under the law"!

The good news is that Christ, while remaining Himself (God), assumed our life from Adam after the fall through the incarnation. By doing so He defeated sin in our humanity and He also took our old humanity to the grave were He left it. Hence "in Christ" our humanity has been made obedient to God's law and it has taken the curse of the law or the 2nd death and has therefore met the justice of God's law.

What happened Sunday morning?

Eph 2:6 God "raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...."

Col 1:13 For He [God] delivered us from the domain of darkness [this fallen world under Satan], and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

"In Christ" we have a new, glorified, sinless humanity in the heavenly places "in Christ Jesus"! We stand perfect in Christ literally. As you said, we receive this glorified life at the 2nd coming IF we have received this gospel! And this is toxic?

No what is toxic is the legalism that ensues from denouncing this truth. Those who reject the gospel of Christ are choosing the company of the anti-Christ who denies that Christ came in flesh*.

* Note

2 John 2:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

June 6, 2006

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Gregory Matthews said:Speaking very frankly, Robert, when you do such, your message can be toxic to that person. It can push them away from Christ.

Pam needs the gospel not this intellectual, religious garbage that is truly toxic.

If you have problems with me and my message you need to talk with my boss, Christ. He has commanded me to take this gospel to the world.

I am in harmony with the setting of this thread and I ask you once again to stop your preferential treatment of those who try to start fights (namely, Ed and Clio). Instead you have joined them!

Rob

June 6, 2006

Robert, you do not have a relationship with Pam that entitles you to pontificate on what she needs.

If you want to continue in this line, I will begin to edit/delete your posts.

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