Did God create Jesus?

July 11, 2006

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melvin mccarty said:

Robert I wonder who gets to decide exactly which passages are metaphors and which are not. What is your insight on that?

When there is a plain statement that the spirit returns to God why do we need to wish it away?

mel

What part of you is righteous that it can bypass death - your spirit? Let's look at this:

"...before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern,

verse 7] and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the [breath] returns to God who gave it."

Look at those underlined phrases! Does this sound literal? No!

Further more the translation for "spirit" is "breath". Hence verse 7 is a metaphor. Since you are made of dust, you go back to dust. Your life ends...your breath goes out. Your life is now in God's hands for He gave you life and now, after death, your future life is in His hands. Hence, metaphorically speaking, your life goes back to God who gave it....That's all it means.

Look at the story of Lazarus. Jesus said he was sleeping. Did He mean that literally, or was He speaking metaphorically? Yes...the later.

The Bible refers to our 1st death as a sleep death because the alarm clock will go off and we will be raised immortal & sinless from our dusty beds. The alarm clock is God's trumpet at the 2nd coming.

Does Paul agree?

2 Tim 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.

Where are you going, Paul...to heaven?

8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day

What day..when you die?

—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Oh, the 2nd coming.

What happens then?

1 Cor 15:51... We shall not all sleep [not everyone will die the 1st death], but we shall all be changed,

When? When we die?

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead [those who sleep] shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Why must we be changed? Because we are bunch of sick sinners....We can't go into heaven with the sick self-loving nature....Are babies like this? Sure! Sit two infants down and give one a toy and the other nothing and watch the fight begin. At birth we are selfish...later we learn to hide it, but you can't trick God for He sees how wretched we really are.....

Rob

July 11, 2006

One more point:

Gal 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

When you appear to do something good, it's not you...it's Christ in and through you. People are really seeing Christ, not you. Why? Because You and I (and everyone else) are incapable of doing one unselfish thing, in and of ourselves, period.

All we can do is to allow God to defeat our flesh so that He can be seen. But to conclude that we have something in us that is naturally good that bypasses death, that only needs refining, is the highest form of legalism, blindness and self-righteousness. As Jesus said, "Without me you CAN'T DO ANYTHING"...anything right, that is!

Rob

July 11, 2006

When Alien Sanctuary talked about our spirit that interfaces with God in our DNA he wasnt talking about breath.

He was talking about life. He uses(if I may put words in his mouth)spirit for lack of a better word.

I cant wrap my brain around it but I see he is onto something.

God gave us life. It is imperfect and mortal but it still is life. And maybe ,just maybe, in that very basic gift there is a human connection that we all have together that stems from the Creator. That pours out of the Creator

I would love to hear more so I can see where this is going.

and If it True I am sure we can find scriptures that testify to its orgins.

We do know that the Holy Spirit talks to every heart.

BC and AD in all villages thru out time. EGW has said as much and the BIBLE.

Alien isnt talking about the New Birth. He is talking about the HOLY SPIRIT!

July 11, 2006

In God we move and have our very being

Paul said that

July 11, 2006

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-- Living Bible

James 2:26 Just as the body is dead when there is no spirit in it, so faith is dead if it is not the kind that results in good deeds.

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Psalms 31:5 Into your hand I commit my spirit.

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Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

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-- King James

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early:

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-- Living Bible

Isaiah 42:5 The Lord God who created the heavens and stretched them out and created the earth and everything in it, and gives life and breath and spirit to everyone in all the world, he is the one who says [to his Servant, the Messiah],

I normally don't make long lists of Scripture, but here are some that I believe indicate that we all have a spirit within us which keeps us alive, and, which records our every thought to compile our life record.

This spirit also connects our minds to God via the Holy Spirit and/or Angels, like an electronic eavesdropping device, enabling him to know what we need before we even ask for it.

Of course, spirit has several different meanings, and we must be careful.

July 11, 2006

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Heathen Pam, Ex-Club Member

No offense intended. I was just teasing you about some of your previous posts. I don't think you're a heathen, and I'm glad you're part of the club because I think you're a nice person. You're asking some really good questions.

July 11, 2006

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Robert said:

"...anything right, that is!

Rob

And since even life on this earth in our fallen condition is possible only through the sustaining grace of God, we can do nothing wrong without His withholding of immediate retribution.

[:"red"] "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;

for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake." [/] Romans 13:3-5 NASB

July 11, 2006

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Gay4JESUS said:God gave us life. It is imperfect and mortal but it still is life.

No...God gave Adam life. This life was absolutely perfect in all aspects, but Adam fell....Since we came from Adam we are sinful and imperfect, but by faith we can accept the righteousness of Christ - the 2nd Adam!

You see if God MAKES sinners then why do we need a Devil? God would then be resposible for creating the sin problem.

Rob

July 11, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: And since even life on this earth in our fallen condition is possible only through the sustaining grace of God, we can do nothing wrong without His withholding of immediate retribution.

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil.

Oh, boy....God's going to get you type stuff....

July 11, 2006

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Robert said:

"...before the silver cord is snapped, or the golden bowl is broken, or the pitcher is broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern, [verse 7] and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

Look at those underlined phrases! Does this sound literal? No!

Then the dust returning to the earth isn't literal either.

Except that strictly speaking, it IS literal: our molecular structure breaks down after death and the raw material(s) ("dust") of our bodies "returns to the earth."

Since the reference to the raw materials of our bodies IS literal, you'll need a more compelling argument for sticking the statement about the spirit in the non-literal group that PRECEDES this clause rather than the group containing this literal clause about the body ...

July 11, 2006

Thank you Nico for that post. Of course there IS something of us that survives death. A little bit of air is not what makes us alive and individuals. It's not a puff of air that returns to God of course. All of our DNA, and our memories and personalities and everything that makes us what we are is preserved. I believe that is the "spirit". We should not be so obsessed with proving an unconcious state that we 'throw out the baby with the bathwater' as it were. If we were more sensible with our "state of the dead" doctrine it would be more acceptable to thinking people I believe. Why do we persist in claiming the "sleeping in the grave" thing when it is so obviously not factual?

mel

July 11, 2006

Hi Robert!

God bless you

Yes God gave Adam life.

and God gave me life

He is the Author of all life including Satan's Life.

By me stating God gave me, a sinner, life is not implecating God the author of sin.

Even though my mom and some high school boy at a drive in gave me life. It still is Gods work!

in HIM is life. Without God there is no life!

And there wouldnt be no life for me after that boy had his filthy way with my mom.

July 11, 2006

God, by a mere thought or word, can stop all existance.

God is very involved in all life. even the sparrows!

July 11, 2006

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Robert said:

Oh, boy....God's going to get you type stuff....

Seems to me only common sense to pay attention when God speaks through whatever medium He chooses, as He gives His instruction with our good foremost in mind.

[:"red"] "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." [/] Gen 2:17 KJV

July 12, 2006

We wouldn't think that one's spirit/soul would be conscious or have any kind of sensory input after death, it being mainly a permanent record of one's thoughts and actions, including a record of their DNA for restoration purposes.

We could think of a parallel: a newborn having a high-tech miniature digital movie camera surgically implanted which recorded everything he said or did up until he died of old age. The storage disc was removed after death and given to his family. There it was, his entire life on a tiny little disc. His family could see everything he ever said or did, including more scenes than they really wanted to see.

Unless I'm mistaken, if everyone's spirit returns for storage to the Land of God after they die, then it's not exactly untrue if a person believes that they "go to heaven" when they die. "Heaven" can mean either "up", "sky" or, the "place where God lives".

We, unfortunately, don't have any hard evidence about consciousness after death, really, unless a person died and came back to life. But even then, he might have nothing to report.

I can't really explain where the sensory input for the Near Death Experience comes from, though. You know, the patient looking down from above, watching the surgical team trying to resuscitate his dead body, or the journey through the tunnel to the light. Maybe this input comes from the person's Guardian/Messenger/Angel, if not from their spirit.

(More than 20 years ago I nearly killed myself when I ran my motorcycle into the side of a truck parked across a highway at night. Apparently I couldn't even remember my last name in the ER. I still don't remember anything about the accident, much less any operating room or tunnel or being of light, except waking up in a hospital with my arm in traction and 10 inch incision down my abdomen. That morphine was really good stuff, though. It turned a bed of rocks into a bed of clouds.)

Likewise, we don't have much information on when and where Jesus came from, or what his first body even looked like. Maybe he was one of the sun-faced fiery-legged white-robed extraterrestrial beings we read about in the Bible. Maybe he was something really scary, a snaky dragon with six wings, like Satan. We can only wonder, and trust that God will share this information with us when or if we need it.

July 13, 2006

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Aliensanctuary said:

We, unfortunately, don't have any hard evidence about consciousness after death

That is , of course, unless one believes our Father inspired men to speak the thoughts He wished to express to us.

[:"red"] "....men spoke from God who were borne along (moved and impelled) by the Holy Spirit." [/]

2 Peter 1:21 AMP

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Likewise, we don't have much information on when and where Jesus came from, or what his first body even looked like.

[:"red"] "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,"....A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; " [/] Hebrews 10:5 NASB Caps their's LHC

[:"red"] "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God." [/] John 1:1,2

KJV

[:"red"] " he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." [/] Isaiah 53:2 KJV

July 14, 2006

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Nicodema said: Then the dust returning to the earth isn't literal either.

Okay...reality mixed with metaphors.

July 14, 2006

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melvin mccarty said: Of course there IS something of us that survives death.

Again, what part of humanity is naturally righteous that it can bypass death?

July 14, 2006

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Gay4JESUS said: He is the Author of all life including Satan's Life.

Yes, but before the fall...

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By me stating God gave me, a sinner, life is not implecating God the author of sin.

No...if He made you then He made a sinner. That makes Him responsible for sin.

July 14, 2006

Doesn't one's soul/spirit bypass death? Doesn't God hold that part of one's personhood in His hand when the body dies? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

July 14, 2006

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Robert said:

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Gay4JESUS said: He is the Author of all life including Satan's Life.

Yes, but before the fall...

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By me stating God gave me, a sinner, life is not implecating God the author of sin.

No...if He made you then He made a sinner. That makes Him responsible for sin.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I am totally confused.

July 15, 2006

God did not create sinners. He created perfect humans. It was human free will sucumbing to temptation and violating the word of God that led to the infection if sin. Sin then grew in humans through each successive generation. Sin is a virus with only one cure.

July 15, 2006

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rudywoofs said: Doesn't one's soul/spirit bypass death? Doesn't God hold that part of one's personhood in His hand when the body dies? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

No, "the soul that sins shall die" Ez 18:4

July 15, 2006

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rudywoofs said: I am totally confused.

Rudywoofs, ask yourself, "when did God create my life"?

Acts 17:26 "He [God] made from one [Adam] every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth...."

Because we came from "one" we have a problem:

1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die"....

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world [the human race] through one man [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned [where? In Adam]

You see God didn't create you in your mother's womb. He created you when He created Adam. Scripture please, right?

Psalm 139:13 For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother’s womb.

Okay, if we stop here it looks like David was made in his mother's womb, but let's read on to get the full context:

verse 15 My frame [my foundation] was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought [:"red"]in the depths of the earth.[/] 16 Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. [NASB]

Your substance, your life, "was made" "in [or from] the depths of the earth" and not your mother's womb. Yes, you entered the world through mom, but your life was created when God created Adam before the fall.

Let's compare, "I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth." with Genesis 2:7

"Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Who was around when God made Adam? No human, hence in that respect Adam was made in secret. From where was Adam formed? "The earth" or the "dust of the ground".

So, God created your substance (your life) when He created Adam. Even Eve was taken from Adam' side! All this God did before the fall.

July 15, 2006

Geez...that all really makes me feel special. God really didn't create me...I'm not made in His image...I was just a seed within a seed within a seed within a seed, ad infinitum.

just a domino of sin... great..

yep. really special..

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