Human Suffering Ethics and Questions

August 22, 2006

I am sure that I am not alone in saying that I have experienced some suffering and tragedy in my life.

Because of things that have happened to me in my own experience, I have, over the years, developed both a response to, and questions about, human suffering.

I refer to all kinds of suffering when I say “human suffering," for there is such a great physical suffering in the world, but also intense emotional and spiritual suffering, not the least of which would be loneliness and fear. The Bible refers to “men’s hearts failing them for fear…” and we know too from accounts of the healing miracles of Jesus that some suffer physically for 30 years or more.

Sometimes, as Christians, we tend to be too ready to offer words and sayings to placate the acuteness of suffering in someone, we are too filled with naïve, cheap words about all manner of tragic events around us. “Holy” and “religious” words find their way to almost every tragedy and heart-break. But then, in some cases, not even that happens, and people do fall through even these inadequate “cracks” to suffer alone, and more acutely than most of us maybe ever will.

I remember once, trying to comfort someone who lost a child; and they said: “You can’t just talk away my tears…how do you know what it is to be a suffering parent?”

Is there really anything anymore for us to say about suffering and death?

One could ask why to a lot of things. Why did it have to happen that a lady I knew had to die of brain cancer, in her early thirties – even after begging God to spare her so she could “live for her children?” Why? If God can prevent evil, why doesn’t he do it? Why did a young man I saw a while ago in a pickup truck, who went through a red light, do it at just the time two 53 foot semi trucks were also racing the lights there at the same time? There was absolutely nothing left of the poor man except an awful, spine-tingling red mark on the pavement.

How can we avoid questions about the true meaning and sense of suffering and evil?

Personally, I have reached some conclusions about it all. Any answers we do give about suffering and evil, (or any answers we do not give), are reflective of the depth and the fertility of our lives. In my humble opinion, our concepts and judgments about human suffering and death is the cornerstone of our spiritual life. I would be very interested in using this topic, along with other forum members, to formulate meaningful reflections on the role/s of all these negative elements in our world, and in the out-working of these negative assaults upon our personal and spiritual lives.

I have also come to believe that there are really, only three types of attitudes with respect to suffering. 1/ Faith 2/ Psychology 3/ Hopeless Silence.

Obviously to Christians, the second stance is too superficial in most cases, and the third stance is very pessimistic.

I guess that in some cases, there may be a limited place for abstract theories and pious phrases. But what I am also asking here is that, we seriously and reverently ask ourselves if each of us, from our own personal experience with suffering or death, has somehow caught even a tiny glimpse of some little light in the midst of your trial, making things, somehow, more understandable. Perhaps you will be able to share a little of your experience to encourage others?

I would like to invite forum participants to help me develop here some kind of desirable orientation for seeing those first, ardent rays of warmth in the dawning of the Christian Hope, rising above the darkness of human suffering and death.

Quote:

“…When I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.” (Micah 7:8).

How does this happen? And why does it seem to only happen in some cases, but not others? What is the cause of “this hope” (1 Jo.3:3) in the face of our trials?

August 27, 2006

I am disappointed to see no responses here. I hope some will be able to respond soon!!

Today was one of the most gruelling Sabbaths I have had in a long time. I had to race out of town early this morning to see someone who had a medical emergency. I spent the whole day and all night in ICU.

As I watched the respirator going up and down, and all the other activities unfolding; I started to think how very unimportant so much of what we do is. We too often don't realize what's really important in life.

Above, I named three types of reactions that ocurr with suffering, and today; I saw all 3 vying for first place.

It was a situation where I couldn't get too "religious" but as I struggled to see some light here, I overheard one of the people in this situation say: "David and *** are here, and that is such a big help."

That surprised me because I thought all we were doing is sitting there worrying.

Our presence with someone in need can be that "light" that the Lord uses to get through to someone in our realm of things. I wonder...How often do we interfere with our availability, and our ability to be that light???

"Even while I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a Light unto me" Micah 7:8

August 27, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

calgary_guy said:

I am disappointed to see no responses here. I hope some will be able to respond soon!!

Hopefully tomorrow, Calgary_guy. I wasn't even aware of the thread earlier, but I do see a reason on the side of Jesus. Not so much on the side of the prince of darkness.

Hope this coming week is more fulfilling to you.

[:"red"] "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." [/] Romans 8:28

NASB

August 27, 2006

I would reply, but I just can't. I read and agree with you. I have had so much on my plate the last 8 years and it is all too fresh, and it isn't over yet!

To me the best anyone can do or say is to just be there. Just sit and listen or just be silent. However, there are time that no one is there and all you have is isolation.

I hope others will respond.

August 29, 2006

The answer is really very simple, but we don't like to hear it. The Biblical answer is that our first parents sinned. They died. And they passed on death and suffering. That has been our lot. And much of death & suffering is self-inflicted or we inflict it on others, but we would rather look for a more hopeful explanation. Yes, I realize that there are also the "innocent" bystanders. That is the one that is harder for me to take.

Actually, Solomon has a different view not on suffering but on death. He said, [:"red"]"And the day of death [better] than the day of one's birth; better to go to the house of mourning than to go tothe house of feasting, for that is the end of all men." Eccl 7:1,2 NKJ [/]

Gerry

August 29, 2006

Sense of the senseless. Order from disorder.

All the suffering, all the pain, all the anguish, heartache and misery has one purpose only. To discourage and attempt to separate from the all-loving Creator, His beloved creations... us.

When you read Paul's descriptions of the evil ones in Ephesians 6, on of the implications is that of "origin", in that the Adversary is the origin of all these ills.

In response to someone asking why? I would encourage them to ask, "Why not me?" This earth is finite and limited in it's duration. We have only a small amount of time on this earth to so let our lights shine before men that some may be saved. If my faith through all the trials the enemy can bring to bear convinces someone watching that "there must be something to all this Abba stuff she hangs on to so tenaciously" then every trial, tribulation, and cost is worth it.

To some it may sound trite, but I have stood through more than most, secure in Abba's arms. It is not about my suffering, but about His Glory. His reward is sure, and this life is but a flicker of a gnat's eyelash.

When it becomes more than I think I can bear, I crawl up in His lap, and sob it out. There truly is a peace that passes all understanding for those who wait upon Him in their darkest hour.

Will I find the courage to lay down my life if such be asked? Perhaps. I know that I would find it easier to lay down my life, than to willingly lay down the life of my husband or child. Still, I have been asked once if I would yield my life. My response was "Yea, Lord, even unto the grave." When it was the life of my husband, I fought back. With prayer, with fasting, and with faith. But I didn't fight for his life, I fought for his salvation.

I was blessed in that both were granted. But not until I yielded fully, "Nevertheless, Lord. Not my will, but Thine, be done."

Clio

August 30, 2006

Welcome back, Clio. Haven't heard from you for awhile.

Gerry

August 30, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

The answer is really very simple, but we don't like to hear it. The Biblical answer is that our first parents sinned. They died. And they passed on death and suffering. That has been our lot. And much of death & suffering is self-inflicted or we inflict it on others, but we would rather look for a more hopeful explanation. Yes, I realize that there are also the "innocent" bystanders. That is the one that is harder for me to take.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I know you did not mean it my brother in Christ; but this answer seems almost heartless. To me, when trouble hits, God does have a Heart,and He feels each heartache, marks each tear.

The more "understandable" answer is often what God would choose too. Telling someone who has just lost a family member that "Adam & Eve sinnned, and this left us with the results;" is paramount to telling a dying man about the mark of the beast; when he really needs to just hear your voice, and feel your touch.

Now, my questions above were really fishing for answers to what I asked in regard to Micah 7:8 where he says: "Even while I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light unto me."

I asked; How would this happen to someone? How does it happen to some that "while they sit in darkness," the Lord is their light?

While I don't expect everyone to share personally here, I appreciate all the comments. I have lost a loved one today to Leukemia, but I have to say even though I don't have "answers" I have an experience about it that I can share.

I know from this experience that in our darkest trials; we can be one with Jesus in His Passion; we can be co-workers with Him in His body, the universal Sacrifice of salvation. Jesus has gone before us; entering into, and fully embracing all of our darknesses, and so making it possible for us to do the same. Always, I see His strength being made perfect in human weakness; I saw it today...Oh! if only some of us would just let Jesus in to work on that weakness that we have! We have nothing to lose but the grating chains that bind us to that which from keeps us from unreservedly willing whatever God decides to will.

August 30, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:

But I didn't fight for his life, I fought for his salvation.

His salvation is his life, for without that he would still be dead in his sins. Praise the Lord for his life.

[:"red"] "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." [/] John 3:36 NASB

[:"red"] "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." [/]

1 John 5:12 KJV

August 30, 2006

Each of us will suffer many wrongs in life.

Many of us had the experience of calling out to God in our need.

"Where are you, God?"

"Do you even care?"

If we come up with the wrong answer to this question, it can throw our life into darkness and alienation. Jesus cares.

olger

August 31, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:

But I didn't fight for his life, I fought for his salvation.

His salvation is his life, for without that he would still be dead in his sins. Praise the Lord for his life.

[:"red"] "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." [/] John 3:36 NASB

[:"red"] "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." [/]

1 John 5:12 KJV

You missed the point. When I fought back with prayer and faith during his illness, I didn't fight for his life. I didn't pray that his life be saved, I fought for his salvation. It was more important to me that he be saved than that he lived.

Had it been necessary for him to die, then I still would not have stood and said "why me". "Why not me?" would still be my response as opposed to the other. I know this, because he was resuscitated more than once. And I know what my prayers, response, and actions were.

I am thankful everyday, and fill my Abba's ears with thanksgiving that my husband's life and his salvation were granted. But his life is an added gift because my Abba chose to give it, not because I bargained, demanded, or asked for it.

September 2, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Clio said:

But his life is an added gift because my Abba chose to give it, not because I bargained, demanded, or asked for it.

It seems we're sliding by the point we each wish to hold up,

but I am interested in knowing why your sentence appears to make bargaining and asking, a less than desirable characteristic of the Christian. The word "demand" definitely is identified as contrary to love. However Jesus gave instruction, not only to ask for what we desired,

but to keep on asking if the object wasn't immediately forthcoming.

[:"red"] "...for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." [/] Matthew 7:8 ASV

[:"red"] "For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened." [/] Matthew 7:8

AMP

And as well, I see a positive lesson for emulation described in the life of Jacob, as evidenced by God's continuous care for him, if not as a result of bargaining, certainly not drawing any displeasure from his Father that can be seen.

[:"red"] "And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee." [/] Gen 28:20-22 KJV

This discourse reveals to me, Jacob's receiving the principle of God very literally, that was later repeated through Isaiah.

[:"red"] "Come now, and let us reason together... " [/] Isaiah 1:18 ARV

Have a happy Sabbath!

September 2, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: "For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened."

Qualify your statement with the following:

"You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures [i.e., your enjoyment]." James 4:3

September 4, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: "For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened."

Qualify your statement with the following:

"You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures [i.e., your enjoyment]." James 4:3

While your post makes it appear as if it is beneath the Christian's conduct to pray for things that might bring personal pleasure, IIMO the promise is specifically for those led of the Spirit, which would uplift and edify the body of Christ.

As far as eliminating the possibility of receiving personal pleasure as a result of prayer, this speaks more to the individual who believes that anything pleasurable is sinful, which conclusion would have God Himself investing in sinful behavior.

[:"red"] "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." [/] Rev 4:11 KJV

September 7, 2006

But you see, I didn't think to ask for any of that. I asked for whatever it took to secure his salvation, whatever the cost.

I watched his struggle with all things spiritual, and I watched the correlation in his physical health.

One of my talents is pattern recognition applied to abstract concepts. The pattern was unmistakeable.

It was my role to intercede for him in prayer, but in ways Abba could bless and in accordance with His Own heart. What is ultimately more important? Salvation or life on this earth?

Always I prayed for his salvation, and just as always, I would ask, if it be possible, Abba, also grant his life that we might enjoy the years of happiness stolen from us. Nevertheless, not my will, but always Thine.

I am not convinced this trial is over, but I am encouraged that the end is near. And whether it be a return to full health, or a resurrection morning, I am content that Abba is in control and will have given what I most desire.

Eternity with my husband and my Beloved Jesus.

And no... I'm not willing to go into a debate about marriage in heaven. Whether he is still my husband or just someone I love dearly, the joy of seeing him there will make all that has happened the last 2+ years worth every tear, every supplication, and every heartache.

Even if he is no longer my blood covenanted husband, I will still enjoy swooping across the fields, soaring near the clouds, and brushing flowers with my fingertips with him as we enjoy the power of flight. Surely our guardian angels will join us, showing us tricks that were old when Earth was new.

September 7, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

olger said:

Many of us had the experience of calling out to God in our need.

"Where are you, God?"

"Do you even care?"

If we come up with the wrong answer to this question, it can throw our life into darkness and alienation.

The way we deal with a person asking those questions often determines what answer they come up with ... don'tcha think? After all, if they are asking such things they are obviously not "seeing" God in their world. And if they are not seeing God, guess where they are going to look next for a glimpse of Him?

That's right: you and I.

September 17, 2006

if they are asking such things they are obviously not "seeing" God in their world. And if they are not seeing God, guess where they are going to look next for a glimpse of Him?

September 17, 2006

you clearly did not understand the nature of my comment, or my reasons in posting it.

i am sorry for your loss.

September 17, 2006

you clearly did not understand the nature of my comment, or my reasons in posting it.

i am sorry for your loss.

Hi Nic

Please don't worry about my post being directed at you...it certainly wasn't as I did mention in the post above.

The line that I picked from your last post, was really quite random - it was intended to reflect in a generic sense some of our thoughts and feelings during times of loss or suffering.

There are certainly no hard feelings of any kind on my part because of anything you said...

"...be strong and of a good courage..." :)

September 17, 2006

OK David, no harm done. ;-)

September 18, 2006

One thing I have noticed regarding suffering, Abba never allows the lessons we learn through pain and hardship to lie fallow and go to waste.

He always brings others even more in need of His anealing ointment, that we can apply as a salve and a balm, from the lessons learned at His knee through our own trials and hardship.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

December 6, 2006

I really like that thought Cleo:

Quote:

Rom.8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

December 6, 2006

I don't really think it's my thought.... I have to be reminded of it too often.

I think it's part of how he fits the called for His purpose rather than calling the fit....

One thing's for sure! When I learn those lessons the hard way, through praying for someone close to me, I *never* forget those lessons, even if through my own fraility I allow them to get a little rusty.

There are always others in even more need of Abba's blessing than I. Because His Grace is always sufficient for me. And not everyone knows that.

December 6, 2006

I have just come upon this thread - some random thoughts I have gathered over the years

Looking for answers/reasons in our times of grief is not helpful. We probably cannot even help doing it - but I think in the long term the only answer is the one Job received at the end of his troubles - God is there, whatever happens.

Whatever hope we have in the resurrection, we have to deal here and now with the loss of the one we loved and our lives will be irrevocably altered.

I try to avoid trite words when speaking to those who have undergone loss - Fran's comment about just being there for someone struck a chord with me. Letting them speak freely if that is what they want - and being aware that sometimes the trite is all our troubled mind will respond with.

And Clio's thought "There are always others in even more need of Abba's blessing than I. Because His Grace is always sufficient for me. And not everyone knows that.' is the most profound of all.

December 6, 2006

Quote:

Looking for answers/reasons in our times of grief is not helpful.

It is so true. We cannot escape grieving. If we don't do it at the time of loss, then we will have to do it later. Years later, even. I've learned it is best to lean into ones grief. To accept it. It won't be as painful that way nor last as long.

~d.allan

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