Human Suffering Ethics and Questions

[Woody]

There is so much suffering in our churches that go ignored. I think this is one of the MOST important issue. We as a church body need to sensitive to all kinds of suffering. We need to reach out to those hurting.

I will start the talk about one particular kind because I am in that boat ... Why don't we as a church do more for those that are not attending but are interested in doing so. I am disabled. I find it very difficult to sit in church. I have a physical disability that the church does not offer help for. If I am physically able to attend ... I would have to bring a folding reclining chair. It takes a lot of room. I do not find churches able or willing to accomodate me.

I used to attend and bring a heating pad and lay on the floor. This was only because I wanted so desparately to attend. I got some strange comments as you can imagine. Later I took my folding lounge chair. But finally I gave up.

I had been the church clerk, communications director and elder for many years. I really wanted to keep contact with the church.

Do you think I got any visitors? NO NO NO

Finally I missed contact so much that I pleaded with the church to send me the Church Bulletins. I even gave them $50.00 to have them mailed to me. Do you know what they did? They would collect them for a month and send a month at a time. I wanted a timely update of what the church was doing. And this is what I got. Finally after a few months ... they totally stopped. I did not get my money's worth.

Worse yet ... It clearly gave me the message that I did not matter. All my years of service to the church did not matter.

I was out of sight and out of mind.

Why did this happen? I have cried and cried to God about it. I have become VERY angry at the church because of it. I have become VERY angry at GOD because of it.

I no longer believe in prayer as a means to have God give us anything. If he couldn't help me in this situation ... he will not help me find my keys. I just don't belive it.

Anyway ... I do want to help the church. I want to help it find ways to care for those who no longer attend or who are not able to attend.

Any ideas from the rest of you on HOW I can accomplish this goal?

[Guest]

Anyway ... I do want to help the church. I want to help it find ways to care for those who no longer attend or who are not able to attend.

Any ideas from the rest of you on HOW I can accomplish this goal?

Hi Redwood,

I think you may have started the ball rolling already, just sharing your story here; albeit a sad one in many ways.

I will have to come back to this forum tomorrow night; but I do have some ideas, and I am sure others do too. :)

[Guest]

Hello Again Redwood;

I had to leave last night in a hurry; but wanted to come back and try to encourage you in your quest.

The reason I mentioned that sharing your story here was a great start is because there actually are a large number of people that come to Club Adventist who no longer attend; but would like to if circumstances would permit. You could try encouraging others online, as a part of your effort to accomplish your goal. If you are able to make a small donation here; Club Adventist does offer a free Blog that you could also use to refer people to. I will make the donation for you; if you cannot do it yourself.

The offline part of your effort, will be a little more challenging for you; but I have found that prayer for such things actually does work. I know you mentioned how you now wonder about prayer; but I have also been in that situation where I wondered if God ever hears me. I have had some awful things happen; yet through it all, God has consistently answered my prayer for people in my life that I can encourage in their Christian walk. Trouble is, that because of my list of "unanswered" prayers, I have often not prayed to help others, but, only for my own, personal help.

I am certainly not saying that this is what you do; but I believe there may be some principles or similarities for you here that you may be able to work with.

That would really hurt to have the experience you did at Church; but I have learned to look at such things from the stand-point that it is one more thing that will help me to better empathize with others who have/are going through such things.

In my next post here, on the topic of "human suffering;" I was planning to mention that some of the reason for it is unknown; but the known part of it is that God, and His Word tell us to console or encourage one another, and I know that during my darkest times, God always sent another person into my life who knew just how to do that with me:

Quote:

2 Cor.1: 3 "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God."

I actually met someone almost 6 years ago on Club Adventist who was/is able to do that with me; and so this will be my prayer for you, that God will answer your heart's desire to encourage others. If I were you; I would not limit such effort to Adventists; it may be hard to identify ones who need the help that you can give as "Adventist;" but that doesn't mean you can't try.

It might be an idea to try contacting your local pastor & church members you know for names of non-attending members in your city? Or names of shut-ins and people in hospital, who are members? I don't know how your mobility is now; you may not be able to do everything I suggest; but I just know that if you really want people to encourage; God will send them!

[Clio]

Not a reply to Mr. Battler... just an observation.

I shared my story here, and someone from the local church got a membership to make one post... calling me a LIAR LIAR LIAR.

End result: I shared a huge number of specifics I would have preferred to keep private, for the sake of the church, not for my own sake.

Worse, my children attempted to attend that church a few months ago, and were pulled aside by some of the adults there to ask them if their dad was really that sick, and how could they show their faces there after their mom had abandoned the church....

[Guest]

Not a reply to Mr. Battler... just an observation.

I shared my story here, and someone from the local church got a membership to make one post... calling me a LIAR LIAR LIAR.

End result: I shared a huge number of specifics I would have preferred to keep private, for the sake of the church, not for my own sake.

Worse, my children attempted to attend that church a few months ago, and were pulled aside by some of the adults there to ask them if their dad was really that sick, and how could they show their faces there after their mom had abandoned the church....

Hi Clio

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Those fools should be glad that ANY children want to attend Church, nevermind what the parents are doing/did.

Online ministry can be touchy; it is really important to not share anything too personal; unless it won't matter to you if others see it. I know that in some cases; some do want others to read what they write, such as with Redwood? I was more referring to the type of online ministry where one shares encouragements and generally uplifting counsel without divulging anything too private. For eg., I can say something like: "I have had some really nasty stuff done to me by some Church members," (which is true), yet I don't have to give anymore details, unless the situation warrants it; and it won't matter to me if others see it.

But, you do raise a good point, and a very valid concern. There are always the few who really abuse online ministry as they did with you. Stan has a trusty delete button and IP address ban button that he can use for such ones.

May God bless you as you continue to seek Him. :PR

[Woody]

Thank you DAVID for your good encouragement and suggestions.

I am not sure I could do the Blog idea. I am not that savy on the computer and Also I am not sure I am ready and able to be much help. I am not sure I am healed enough.

David ... I really struggle with this. It came to a head 6-7 years ago and I still have a lot of anger at the church and God. Each week I strongly desire to go to church and have fellowship. When I can't ... I feel a lot of anger at the Church but mostly at GOD.

How can I help others with my anger?

The trouble is I had to give up on being a therapist in the hospital where I was helping people all day long. It was so rewarding. Now I don't have that and I don't have the church. I want to help the church but I can't go. I am hoping that this forum will help me get over my anger. Maybe if I express it to people who understand and are in a similar situation ... it will help.

The one area that hurts me personally is the area of prayer. Since I pray every week that GOD will allow me to go to church ... and that prayer is not answered .... I get more and more angry and have honestly come to the point where I do not believe that God answers our prayers when we ask for help for ourselves. I get upset when I hear people say that GOD answered their prayer to help them find there keys or to fix their fridge. I do not serve a GOD who will help find keys but will not give protection to hundreds of thousands of Africans who are starving for some bread and water or who are slaughtered in Darfur. OR a GOD who will not answer my prayer to be able to go to church and have fellowship with and support other christians.

Can you help restore the tradition of being able to pray and expect God to answer? OR Should I give up on that and go the way I am going and just not believe that God has the will.

When I look at the Great Controversy I see that God has to answer the charges of SATAN. And Satan charges that the only reason that we are christian is because of the benefits such as health and riches that we can get if we pray. I think to answer these charges that GOD has His hand tied. HE wants us to believe in HIM even though our prayers are not answered.

So ... understanding my beliefs ... do you still think that I could be of any help to anyone? Maybe I am the one that needs the help.

I hope I have not discouraged you. I want to thank you for your kind concern and help.

REDWOOD

[Woody]

Clio ... GOD BLESS YOU. I am so sorry for what has happened to you and your children.

While I could give you some advice ... Know that I am not good at even following my own advice.

All I know is that it is important for you to continue to express yourself to others who will support you and your walk with GOD. These people at church can just be thrown away and forgotten to the best of your ability. Easier said than done.

There are a lot of hurtful people in the world and the church is no different. Do the best you can to protect yourself from these wolves. But, continue on your path. It may be that you do need to abandon a church like that. Maybe there is another more Christian church in your community. I know if your kids like it that change may be hard though.

People can be so mean. But, GOD is more important than being around those kinds. Make sure you keep trying to learn more of God. Perhaps some day you can do some good in response to the bad that has been done to you. That is MY goal. I am not there yet. But, I hope to be there some day. I know from previous personal experience that helping others can really help get us over the hurt we have experienced.

LOVE WON ANOTHER.

REDWOOD

[Guest]

The one area that hurts me personally is the area of prayer.

Can you help restore the tradition of being able to pray and expect God to answer? OR Should I give up on that and go the way I am going and just not believe that God has the will.

When I look at the Great Controversy I see that God has to answer the charges of SATAN. And Satan charges that the only reason that we are christian is because of the benefits such as health and riches that we can get if we pray. I think to answer these charges that GOD has His hand tied. HE wants us to believe in HIM even though our prayers are not answered.

So ... understanding my beliefs ... do you still think that I could be of any help to anyone? Maybe I am the one that needs the help.

I hope I have not discouraged you. I want to thank you for your kind concern and help.

REDWOOD

[Guest]

Worse, my children attempted to attend that church a few months ago, and were pulled aside by some of the adults there to ask them if their dad was really that sick, and how could they show their faces there after their mom had abandoned the church....

[Guest]

If you read My Personal testimony about how I became a Christian, you may begin to see how God used others to reach me - even in the midst of the worst.

I remember one poignant night when I was all wrapped in bandages, in severe pain, and feeling totally hopeless. It went like this, as quoted from a letter the nurse I mentioned in my testimony wrote to me recently:

Quote:

"David, it seems to me you came in once with a collapsed lung; , but when I remember you the most; was the night you came in with burns all over your chest and neck. David, as the blisters and area all began to swell, it was making it so hard for you to breathe. As I recall; not only that night, but many others, on my way home, I would pray for you. it was also so hurtful for me to watch your dressings being changed; for I knew it must have been so painful.

The next thing I remember, was the IV injections that would always make you feel so strange. (ketamine). I was very surprised one evening when you confided in me that you were afraid. That evening; I didn't go for my break. But I stayed with you, I told you if you felt my hand on your arm; it would me me; and I would stay with you until the strange feeling passed..."

I have never forgotten this night; and the inspiration & strength drawn from this, has been a great factor today - years later, in strengthening my faith when the chips are down.

Dear reader, perhaps, you are at a point where you are just afraid, like I was. But maybe for different reasons? God has not left you. He is not absent. It might be so hard to realize now; but in His Word, God does say:

"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee..." Heb.13:5. Like He has with me; God will be with you; "until the strange feeling passes."

Quote:

"Abiding peace, true rest of spirit, has but one Source. It was of this that Christ spoke when He said, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you." John 14:27. This peace is not something that He gives apart from Himself. It is in Christ, and we can receive it only by receiving Him.

Christ is the wellspring of life. That which many need is to have a clearer knowledge of Him; they need to be patiently and kindly, yet earnestly, taught how the whole being may be thrown open to the healing agencies of heaven. When the sunlight of God's love illuminates the darkened chambers of the soul, restless weariness and dissatisfaction will cease, and satisfying joys will give vigor to the mind and health and energy to the body.

We are in a world of suffering. Difficulty, trial, and sorrow await us all along the way to the heavenly home. But there are many who make life's burdens doubly heavy by continually anticipating trouble. If they meet with adversity or disappointment they think that everything is going to ruin, that theirs is the hardest lot of all, that they are surely coming to want. Thus they bring wretchedness upon themselves and cast a shadow upon all around them. Life itself becomes a burden to them. But it need not be thus. It will cost a determined effort to change the current of their thought. But the change can be made. Their happiness, both for this life and for the life to come, depends upon their fixing their minds upon cheerful things. Let them look away from the dark picture, which is imaginary, to the benefits which God has strewn in their pathway, and beyond these to the unseen and eternal.

For every trial, God has provided help. When Israel in the desert came to the bitter waters of Marah, Moses cried unto the Lord. The Lord did not provide some new remedy; He called attention to that which was at hand. A shrub which He had created was to be cast into the fountain to make the water pure and sweet. When this was done, the people drank of the water and were refreshed. In every trial, if we seek Him, Christ will give us help. Our eyes will be opened to discern the healing promises recorded in His word. The Holy Spirit will teach us how to appropriate every blessing that will be an antidote to grief. For every bitter draft that is placed to our lips, we shall find a branch of healing.

We are not to let the future, with its hard problems, its unsatisfying prospects, make our hearts faint, our knees tremble, our hands hang down. "Let him take hold of My strength," says the Mighty One, "that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Isaiah 27:5. Those who surrender their lives to His guidance and to His service will never be placed in a position for which He has not made provision. Whatever our situation, if we are doers of His word, we have a Guide to direct our way; whatever our perplexity, we have a sure Counselor; whatever our sorrow, bereavement, or loneliness, we have a sympathizing Friend.

If in our ignorance we make missteps, the Saviour does not forsake us. We need never feel that we are alone. Angels are our companions. The Comforter that Christ promised to send in His name abides with us. In the way that leads to the City of God there are no difficulties which those who trust in Him may not overcome. There are no dangers which they may not escape. There is not a sorrow, not a grievance, not a human weakness, for which He has not provided a remedy.

None need abandon themselves to discouragement and despair. Satan may come to you with the cruel suggestion, "Yours is a hopeless case. You are irredeemable." But there is hope for you in Christ. God does not bid us overcome in our own strength. He asks us to come close to His side. Whatever difficulties we labor under, which weigh down soul and body, He waits to make us free.

He who took humanity upon Himself knows how to sympathize with the sufferings of humanity. Not only does Christ know every soul, and the peculiar needs and trials of that soul, but He knows all the circumstances that chafe and perplex the spirit. His hand is outstretched in pitying tenderness to every suffering child. Those who suffer most have most of His sympathy and pity. He is touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and He desires us to lay our perplexities and troubles at His feet and leave them there.

It is not wise to look to ourselves and study our emotions. If we do this, the enemy will present difficulties and temptations that weaken faith and destroy courage. Closely to study our emotions and give way to our feelings is to entertain doubt and entangle ourselves in perplexity. We are to look away from self to Jesus. 250

When temptations assail you, when care, perplexity, and darkness seem to surround your soul, look to the place where you last saw the light. Rest in Christ's love and under His protecting care. When sin struggles for the mastery in the heart, when guilt oppresses the soul and burdens the conscience, when unbelief clouds the mind, remember that Christ's grace is sufficient to subdue sin and banish the darkness. Entering into communion with the Saviour, we enter the region of peace." MH.247.001-MH.250.001

[Woody]

Does God really HELP us in our suffering. I tend to believe not. What I do see is that faithful nurse attending David. NOW that was God working through the nurse. But God has his hands tied. We are not controlled by what God says . We have choice and when we do good ... it is because of OUR choice. God can only stand by and watch.

We can be inspired to do what we know God wants us to do. But it is not GOD doing the work. WE all know all the good work we should do ... but few do it. So ... God does not get his wish very often. He is up there like a cheer leader. A cheerleader can't make the football plays but can only encourage the players.

That is GOD the way I see Him. Satan tried to tempt GOD and offer him all of his(satans) control and power over this earth. Yes ... this earth is Satan's domaine. This earth belongs to satan. Jesus had an opportunity to obtain it from Satan but resisted the temptation and rightfully so.

What this means is that there will be suffering her on earth. God will not interfer. The only ones that can interfer ... you guessed it. It is all up to us.

Another way of looking at this ... If GOD was really in control of this earth ... wouldn't you curse and swear at such a leader? I would not serve a God like that.

I look forward to heaven where we will all serve God. He will be our leader and it will be heaven

[Guest]

Does God really HELP us in our suffering. I tend to believe not. What I do see is that faithful nurse attending David. NOW that was God working through the nurse. But God has his hands tied. We are not controlled by what God says . We have choice and when we do good ... it is because of OUR choice. God can only stand by and watch.

We can be inspired to do what we know God wants us to do. But it is not GOD doing the work. WE all know all the good work we should do ... but few do it. So ... God does not get his wish very often. He is up there like a cheer leader. A cheerleader can't make the football plays but can only encourage the players.

That is GOD the way I see Him. Satan tried to tempt GOD and offer him all of his(satans) control and power over this earth. Yes ... this earth is Satan's domaine. This earth belongs to satan. Jesus had an opportunity to obtain it from Satan but resisted the temptation and rightfully so.

What this means is that there will be suffering her on earth. God will not interfer. The only ones that can interfer ... you guessed it. It is all up to us.

Another way of looking at this ... If GOD was really in control of this earth ... wouldn't you curse and swear at such a leader? I would not serve a God like that.

I look forward to heaven where we will all serve God. He will be our leader and it will be heaven

[Woody]

David ... my understanding of the Great Controversy is that Satan was cast down to this earth and given dominion over it. Satan was offering to Jesus what Jesus had given to him. He could have received it all back according to Satan, But Jesus resisted the temptation.

David you said ..."I have always seen God as being in control of the affairs of nations, and of the affairs of individuals."

But it is my understanding that God gives us free choice and does not "control the affairs of nations and individuals" If GOD did ... then Satan would win the question before the Universe.

Of course all of this is strict Great Controversy teaching. And if you don't believe in that then what I say is thrown out the window.

Quite honestly if God is in Control of the people and events I am ready right now to curse God and vow to never be a part of his kingdom. I am sick of this earth and if heaven has the same man in control ... I want no part of it.

David is a real man of confort. He does bring it to others but it is HIS choice to do that. God is not forcing David to be David. The work of God is being done by David. But God has no control over this. What David does is under David's control. GOD is brought to us by David. God is standing by clapping His hands.

I praise God for you David. I know that what is in you is only there because of you accepting God and being willing to share it.

[Guest]

Well; it's not strictly "my choice;" the way I see it; and the way I understand the "strict great controversy."

I don't believe we can so quickly wrap up the problem of evil and suffering as you have in your statements above.

Do you honestly think it was a "temptation" to Jesus, to accept what Satan was offering in "all these kingdoms?" Why would Jesus want something Satan had already ruined? Jesus was resisting being under Satan's control; not taking him up on the offer of "ruling the world."

The true Great Controversy, as reflected throughout the Bible, clearly shows God as setting limits on what Satan could do; and this is what makes it so hard for us to accept that God actually is in control when we have intense suffering or pain on the go.

Here is an example where God is setting the limits:

6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {Satan: Heb. the adversary} {among: Heb. in the midst of}

7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? {considered: Heb. set thy heart on}

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. {substance: or, cattle}

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. {and he…: Heb. if he curse thee not to thy face}

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. {power: Heb. hand}

[Woody]

Yes ... God has adopted a Hands off policy . And if you think that is God in control of the "nations and individuals" then that is your belief. But I would say he is not

doing a good job.

Personally ... If God is in control of this earth ... then I want NO part of it. I will hereby CURSE GOD.

I want NO part of HEAVEN and I would encourage all to reject heaven if the same person is in control. I have enough suffering here . I have no desire to look forward to that kind of a God in heaven. When I see all the hundreds of thousands of people being killed and raped by terrorists. When I see the natural disasters killing hundreds of thousands ... When I see tribal Africans killing the other tribes by the hundreds of thousands ... I want the curse the man in control . So ... if you are telling me that is GOD . Then I curse HIM.

NO Thanks

If this is the kind of belief that this thread is under control of .. then I am out of here. I want no part of this kind of belief. I reject it. I wish you all well in your misery.

Good Bye ... I am out of here.

[Guest]

Hello Redwood,

Sorry if I hit a nerve there. This thread was not intended as something to debate and win. This subject of whether or not God is in control can't really be debated and won, if someone's personal experience is screaming the opposite at them.

Anyways; this thread is not "under control" of just my thoughts. Thats why it is in a public forum. It was meant for people to explore together some possible answers, and their own personal experiences.

I am glad to see you sharing your opinion here; and would encourage you to do so again if you desire.

I will say that I have only shared the tip of the iceberg here re my own pain and suffering. My point here was to show that not everyone who has intense pain and suffering like I do, will react the same way or reach the same conclusions from it all.

I cannot say that I share your opinion; but I do welcome it here in this topic anytime. :JF

[Robert]

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

God did indeed partially remove himself from Job. Why? Job was a good man, so good that Job didn't need God.

The lesson from the book of Job is not get all self-righteous with God and let pride dominated your heart. That was the mistake of the Jews, so God removed Himself from them because He was unwelcome. One principle we must always remember is that God never imposes Himself on those who are not in need of His blessings; His protection; His righteousness.

Now you say that God didn't completely abandoned Job and to this I will agree. What then of Job's servants?

Job 1:13 One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!” 16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

[Robert]

I have always seen God as being in control of the affairs of nations, and of the affairs of individuals. Prophecy such as in Daniel 2 shows God to be in control of the nations....

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: David T Battler

I have always seen God as being in control of the affairs of nations, and of the affairs of individuals. Prophecy such as in Daniel 2 shows God to be in control of the nations....

Dan 2:20 "Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever....He changes times and seasons; he removes kings and sets up kings

If you take this at face value then you must conclude that God also setup Nazi Germany!

Those who are authoritarian driven need to re-analyze this notion that God gives “blank checks” to governing officials, or that He literally sets up the kingdoms of this world under Satan's principle of self....

For example, if God literally setup nations then we can blame Him for the Holocaust since it was supposedly He who setup Germany. We can blame Him for the use of the Atom bombs, for it was He who brought Japan into power fully knowing, because of His omnipotence, that Japan would attack the United States.

If God literally sets up governments, then why did Jesus put the Roman’s leaders down? Yes…that’s right….Turn to Luke 22:24

And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. And He [Jesus] said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’

In a sense Jesus is mocking the Roman political system, (one supposedly set up by God) and its system of self-importance with its power hungry politicians. The disciples apparently had this same mentality….

Verse 26 “But not so with you (disciples), but let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant."

Do leaders really serve the masses, or are they self-serving? Yes, the latter!

Now Christ gives an example of what He means beginning in verse 27:

Verse 27 “For who is greater (in human terms), the one who reclines at the table (i.e., the one being served), or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? (Again, yes, in human terms) But I am among you as the one who serves!

All human governments are completely opposed to God’s concept of servant hood. This is why corruption abounds….If God set this up, then we can blame God for this mess….

If you want to see how God operates in the affairs of mankind then study the following:

Quote:

"My anger [not in human terms] shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the [evil] which they have done, in that [they have turned to other gods]" (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

We must understand "the wrath of God" to mean His reluctant departure from those whose ways show loyalty to the kingdom of darkness by rejecting Christ as the Savior of the world.

You cannot prove that Dan 2:20 is symbolic; and the "wrath of God" statement you made is one that leaves out all those who do not show loyalty to "the kingdom of darkness" and yet suffer immense pain and trial.

If you want to see how God operates in the affairs of manking then study the following...

Micah 7:8

[Robert]

You cannot prove that Dan 2:20 is symbolic

[Robert]

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own.

"The world" is a phrase used to describe Satan's kingdom. If it were God's it wouldn't have this negative connotation.

Robert

[gina i]

The ruler of the earth is the devil. God is in control of the earth. If he wasn't - we would be dead. Think about it.

Redwood, I know that you are angry, but God will give you what you need when he wants, not when you want it. No matter how angry you are. It's what his will is going to be for YOU, not what you want for you. I know it's hard to accept - especially the fact about you wanting to go to church. And I wonder what is in His plan - the fact that you want to go to church & he is not making it possible. But there is a reason, there is a reason for everything that God does/doesn't do.

[Guest]

The ruler of the earth is the devil. God is in control of the earth. If he wasn't - we would be dead. Think about it.

Redwood, I know that you are angry, but God will give you what you need when he wants, not when you want it. No matter how angry you are. It's what his will is going to be for YOU, not what you want for you. I know it's hard to accept - especially the fact about you wanting to go to church. And I wonder what is in His plan - the fact that you want to go to church & he is not making it possible. But there is a reason, there is a reason for everything that God does/doesn't do.

Well said gina

I believe too, that just as he has done with me, God will do with others - including redwood. If God was not in control of this world, yes, we would be dead. Satan does not keep us alive, God does.

My notes and thoughts here are actually not intended to be doctrinal statements, half as much as my journey into "theodicy" which is the branch of theology that defends God's goodness and justice in the face of the existence of evil. But, my reason for "defending" this, is not doctrinal, per se. It is part experiential analyses, and part testimony and part questioning.

My journey, so far, has led me to the point where I see good coming out of almost anything; as it sure has been this way for me. Romans 8:28 is a very living part of my walk with Christ. Actually, I never would have met Christ, if I had not been burned. I would have died of drug over-dose first, or maybe in a knife fight with some hood from the darkside of the city.

But, I also know that others are not in the same place as me; and this is quite OK too. I am no better because of where I am, compared to them. It takes a lot of time for a person to see God's goodness, sometimes till years after the fact, but I have personally experienced how that God can work through the darkest clouds of experience and nourish me with light, love, and happiness I thought for years that I would never have. I couldn't get this through other people - not even that nurse who ministered to me; but only from Jesus, who also gave that nurse her light. One of the things she always said to me, no matter how repulsive I would get is that "God loves everyone so much - no matter what."

I have never been able to prove her wrong. Not from my own experience, or anyone else.

[Guest]

PS

Perhaps I could repeat something from my first post here as a refresher of what is intended here; and what is being asked here:

Quote:

Quote:

“…When I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.” (Micah 7:8).

How does this happen? And why does it seem to only happen in some cases, but not others? What is the cause of “this hope” (1 Jo.3:3) in the face of our trials?

[Robert]

The ruler of the earth is the devil. God is in control of the earth.

That's a direct contradiction!