Am I stupid?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I may not be able to add much to what your wife has already mentioned.

But let me try.

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I'm feeling quite firmly patronised, Now!

[quote]Please, though, don't be offended by my words because honestly none is intended. I'm only telling you what I know to be true based on study and personal experience. I have a feeling, though, that nothing that I say here will change your mind and you will probably even think I am being unfair and unkind, whereas I am actually only being honest and telling it like it is.

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They're apt to think you're just another foolish Christian who probably lacks the backbone to die for your own religion. That's how most view Christians anyway. That is why they are banking on the West and the US not having the stomach for a long and costly war. They believe they can out-last us and that we will give up as soon as we see it is going to cost us anything substantial. And they are right. They are quite willing to die but they know you aren't. You just want to go out and make some kind of show and foolish demonstration. They wouldn't understand why you are doing it and they wouldn't spend a moment trying to understand it. That's how the average Muslim would view you and your actions.

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Don't make the mistake of presenting your own feelings about what I would do as the feelings of the average muslim. Thats a bit arrogant, right?

But my friend, I'm not describing my own feelings or thoughts. You are making a mistake in thinking that I am. I don't feel that way at all. Didn't you read what I said that I think you are nice guy for wanting to wear that shirt? I mean that. I'm not joking about anything at all here. You are totally misunderstanding my motives and my true thoughts and feelings.

Please re-read the first part of my post.

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Its interesting how you dare to speak for the average Muslim man. Do you have polls, other data? Are talking about Iraq, Turkey, Indonesia, Michigan, Nigeria? You talk as if all Muslims are the same and they all have the same attitudes. What do you mean they wouldn't undertand? That says more about your attitude to them than anything else.

I already told you this is not about my attitude. I feel fine about what you want to do. I am telling what I believe many or most Muslims would think of what you are doing.

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Third, you don't seem to realize that Muslims do not mind taking your rights away from you. Islamists don't believe in religious freedom. Whenever Muslims are in a majority, they take away the rights of the minority. Just look anywhere Muslims are in a majority and you will see examples of what I am saying. The Koran only allows Jews and Christians the right to practice their religion as long as they don't resist Muslims, but it says that if they do resist, they are to be killed.

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Are you kidding me? So because what you say is largely true that means we should not be speak up when Americans stereo-type and act negatively towards Muslims???!

Not at all. Again you have totally misunderstand what I am saying here. You might simply "speak up" in a more useful and effective way. I am saying that wearing a shirt which identifies you (falsely) as a Muslim on the plane is not the wisest and more effective way of speaking up in defense of Muslims.

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Fourth, you are apparently unaware that the Islamic world intends to conquer the West, just as they attempted to do in the 1500s and before. Islamists believe the whole world must eventually bend the knee to Allah.

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Did you get this from Michael Savage, Glen Beck, Rick Santorum or the latest prophecy book from the ABC. Is this from Bernard Lewis Where and what is the Islamic world? Is this offcial turkish government policy? Indonecian policy? Is that Musharaf's long term goal in Pakistan? Is this what Hezbollah wants? Is this the long term goal of the Fattah movement? Is this what the Kurds are planning for Are you talking about Islamic extremists although large and growing in number? Is this what the Chechens are fighting for? Is this the considered opinion of the Ulema?

No, none of the above. I don't listen to any of these people or read them or whatever. I am basing my views here on 15 years of personal experiences with close friends of mine who are Muslims from Afghanistan, taking university classes in the Koran and in Islamic culture. You might want to check out the things written by many Islamists on various websites. Most of them are very direct about their hatred of the West and of democratic values. They hate the West because they view us as immoral, materialistic, and corrupt, and they fear that our nagative values will influence their ways. I'm by no means an enemy of Muslims. Actually I have a lot of sympathy for them. As I say, I am only trying to tell you how they would think about your stunt. I am not describing how I think of it. You might want to go to your best university library and read Muslim books about the west for a few months and then go into their homes, eat, talk, and stay from time to time over a period of a few years. This is what I have been doing.

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Despite my having said all that, or maybe even because of it, you will probably go ahead and wear that sign on your shirt, because your doing so has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. Your wearing the sign has to do, rather, with what is in your heart, and that is kindness and a feeling of empathy for those you believe are wronged and maligned. So wear it. Like I say, you're a nice guy.

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Well thanks for the pat on the head!

I'm sorry I don't have the broad knowlege and experience you have.

A bit of friendly advice. If you dispense with the supercillious (look it up) tone/attitude we may learn something from eachother.

You took it all wrong. Do whatever you wish, friend. God's blessing on you.

[David Koot]

This is a prime example of Communication 101. The fact that a person perceives and interprets communication based on his or her own filtering and 'noise.' Notice these words:

"Well thanks for the pat on the head!

I'm sorry I don't have the broad knowlege and experience you have.

A bit of friendly advice. If you dispense with the supercillious (look it up) tone/attitude we may learn something from each other."

Pastor Lazarus, I have observed John317's posts over the last year. His attitude is not supercilious, he is not patronizing. He is a good exemplar of what a Christian gentleman should be.

Yet, you have INTERPRETED his words in your own way. That fact says far more about you, than it does about John317.

I encourage you to consider a couple of things: first, as both the Bible and Sister White (whom I assume you believe in, as an Adventist pastor) counsel, put the best possible interpretation upon the words of a fellow believer--and John317 IS a believer; secondly, practice empathy.

Cordially, Dave

[Gerr]

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But unfortunately the Muslim religion has been hijacked by Islamists. Most Muslims are too afraid of the extremists to speak up and take back their religion.

http://www.islamic-world.net/countries/index.htm provides a list of Islamic countries.

There are some very populated ones you might have heard of...

Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Turkey

When did you last hear their leaders wanting to destroy Israel?

Which of these countries do you regard as being taken over by extremists?

You are making wild generalisations that are simply not true of a majority of the Islamic world.

/Bevin

With the exception of Egypt, how many of the countries you mentioned are close enough to Israel to do anything about destroying Israel? And Egypt has gone to war with Israel twice.

It's also high time that the world, and Americans in particular since our country has been blindly supportive of Israel no matter what, to start scrutinizing what Israel is doing. Former Pres. Carter in the Ruppert show gave detailed information on what Israel is doing systematically taking over Palestinian lands and driving them out by isolating them. They are doing something as evil as what the Palestinians are doing. The evangelicals, with their mistaken theology, plus the powerful Jewish lobby and chicken-hearted politicians are largely to blame, IMO.

Gerry

[Gerr]

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But unfortunately the Muslim religion has been hijacked by Islamists. Most Muslims are too afraid of the extremists to speak up and take back their religion.

http://www.islamic-world.net/countries/index.htm provides a list of Islamic countries.

There are some very populated ones you might have heard of...

Bangladesh, Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Turkey

When did you last hear their leaders wanting to destroy Israel?

Which of these countries do you regard as being taken over by extremists?

You are making wild generalisations that are simply not true of a majority of the Islamic world.

/Bevin

With the exception of Egypt, how many of the countries you mentioned are close enough to Israel to do anything about destroying Israel? And Egypt has gone to war with Israel twice.

It's also high time that the world, and Americans in particular since our country has been blindly supportive of Israel no matter what, to start scrutinizing what Israel is doing. Former Pres. Carter in the Ruppert show gave detailed information on what Israel is doing systematically taking over Palestinian lands and driving them out by isolating them. They are doing something as evil as what the Palestinians are doing. The evangelicals, with their mistaken theology, plus the powerful Jewish lobby and chicken-hearted politicians are largely to blame, IMO.

Gerry

[D. Allan]

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and there is a time to not listen to your wife!

There is?

Ahem... Maybe i should say a man should alway appear to be listening to his wife.

No actually, I have learned that she always has the more practical view of things. Its impractical not to listen to her (in more ways than one!)

[D. Allan]

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It's also high time that the world, and Americans in particular since our country has been blindly supportive of Israel no matter what, to start scrutinizing what Israel is doing. Former Pres. Carter in the Ruppert show gave detailed information on what Israel is doing systematically taking over Palestinian lands and driving them out by isolating them. They are doing something as evil as what the Palestinians are doing. The evangelicals, with their mistaken theology, plus the powerful Jewish lobby and chicken-hearted politicians are largely to blame, IMO.

I agree 100%. If only Jimmy Carter had had a 2nd term. Maybe its not too late? He is a man i really respect.

~d.allan

[David Koot]

Ahem... Maybe i should say a man should alway appear to be listening to his wife.

[lazarus]

john

I'm sorry that I misread your intentions.

I received the distinct impression from your way of presenting your thoughts that you assumed that your knowledge and experience were simply superior. Therefore you had to set me straight on certain things that I did not know.

I stand corrected. I solicit your forgiveness.

[lazarus]

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Yet, you have INTERPRETED his words in your own way. That fact says far more about you, than it does about John317.

I have no other way of interpreting someones word other than my own way. You have interpreted my words your way. Thats normal right. Everyone percieves what is said through his own "eyes". Often we come to the wrong conclusions but but thats what we do.

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I encourage you to consider a couple of things: first, as both the Bible and Sister White (whom I assume you believe in, as an Adventist pastor) counsel, put the best possible interpretation upon the words of a fellow believer--and John317 IS a believer; secondly, practice empathy.

Dave

I presented what I what I felt was the most obvious interpretation of John's words. By the way you can't assume that an SDA pastor believes in EGW!

I guess you are saying I should have been nicer. Yeah, you're right I should!

[aldona]

I've been so angered by all the mindless anti-muslim feeling that I perceive on the radio, TV, forums etc I plan to buy one of those "don't hate me because I'm a muslim" Tshirts and wear it next summer. I'm flying to the UK next summer and I plan to wear it on the plane.

Am I stupid? My wife thinks I am.

WWBD?

(what would Bonhoffer do)

Just saw this now. I think it's a great idea and I would join you if I could, wearing one of my neighbor's head scarves.

And it's good to see someone else who admires Dietrich Bonhoffer.

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

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By the way you can't assume that an SDA pastor believes in EGW!

How can a pastor not believe in the Sprit of Prophecy when it is one of our baptismal vows? If this is so, it shows the pastors in the NAD have way too long of a leash.

[Dr. Shane]

How about wearing a shirt that says "I am a born-again, Sabbath-keeping Christian"? Now thats a novel idea.

[lazarus]

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How can a pastor not believe in the Sprit of Prophecy when it is one of our baptismal vows? If this is so, it shows the pastors in the NAD have way too long of a leash.

How many churches read the baptismal vows when a person gets baptised these days? When I had my interview for my current position, the church asked me if I believed in EGW. I was suprised at the question but that shows that EGW is becoming an optional extra!

Again you are assuming that those in the NAD who are in positions of leadership believe in EGW too. My guess is that some are not 100% sold on her so they wouldn't fire someone who gives an indication that they are sketptical about her.

Pastors don't have to come out and say "I don't believe in her" but just simply not talk about her, teacher her stuff, refer to her in sermons. In many parts of the world EGW, 2300 days, investigative judgement is being gently being edited out of the SDA discourse about the Gospel, 2nd coming etc.

About the T-shirt:

I like the T-shirt that my previous youth group had. It simply said on the front "Not Ashamed". Every time we/I wear it we get quizical looks and the obvious question...ashamed of what? On the back is Rom 1:16. Its a good witnessing tool.

An subltle ambiguous aproach seems to work weel when it comes to witnessing with T shirts.

[David Koot]

How many churches read the baptismal vows when a person gets baptised these days?

With every person I ever baptized or brought into the church on profession of faith, I always went through the baptismal vows with the candidate up front, with the congregation witnessing, BEFORE calling for a vote. But I suppose that may not be a universal custom today.

Dave

[lazarus]

In every church I pastored in the UK that was the usual practice but in the US I haven't seen it done publically for 4.5 years.

[David Koot]

In every church I pastored in the UK that was the usual practice but in the US I haven't seen it done publically for 4.5 years.

Absolutely amazing! Would seem a violation of procedural due process (and perhaps substantive due process as well). The church body is the decision maker about whether or not to invite someone into fellowship. That is the purpose of publicy going over the baptismal vows. I don't understand why it is not done. Oh, well.

[lazarus]

My guess its an issue of time. In the UK baptisms are often done in the afternoon. Typically I have seen baptisms done the morning in the US. I was surprised how quickly it gets done here.

[Dr. Shane]

I did Bible studies with a man in Minnesota that was later baptised. The pastor gave him a copy of the baptismal vows but did not read them to him before the congregation like they do here in Texas. I would think it highly irresponsible of a pastor to baptise someone that hasn't even seen the baptismal vows.

I would like to see the t-shirt "Adventist: Not Ashamed"

[John317]

john

I'm sorry that I misread your intentions.

I received the distinct impression from your way of presenting your thoughts that you assumed that your knowledge and experience were simply superior. Therefore you had to set me straight on certain things that I did not know.

I stand corrected. I solicit your forgiveness.

Aw, that's OK. We're all friends here.

[John317]

I studied theology at PUC with a friend who eventually became an SDA pastor. He had his credentials pulled in the 80s because someone I could name thought this friend of mine didn't believe in Ellen White. As it turns out, he actually did believe in Ellen White at that time, but he doesn't now. Sad to say, he's pastoring with a non-SDA group that keeps Sunday.

When it comes to the Investigative Judgment, it seems to me that it is so closely and fundamentally connected to SDA doctrines, that the SDA church would have no good reason to exist without it. There are other churches that keep the Sabbath and others that believe in the non-immortality of the soul and of the wicked; but there is no other church that believes in the Investigative Judgment. That is about the only teaching I know of that Adventists don't hold in common with any other denomination. Therefore, if we were to throw that over, we might as well cease being an independent church. That's how it seems to me anyhow. Just my personal opinion.

While on the subject: Brad Williams, an SDA pastor, wrote an excellent book about the Investigative Judgment that was recently published, entitled, The Silencing of Satan the Gospel of the Investigative Judgment. You can get it or order it at the ABC. It is one of the best books I know of on the subject and shows the Bible evidence for the SDA position on this doctrine.

[Gerr]

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and there is a time to not listen to your wife!

There is?

Ahem... Maybe i should say a man should alway appear to be listening to his wife.

I guarantee you she'll know if you're not really listening!

Gerry

[Dr. Shane]

A godly wife will help a man grow closer to Christ. Often times this "help" is a process simular to refining gold in fire. It is a painful but benificial process.

If a man has a worldly wife, she will draw him away from Christ and will prove herself to be of little real help in the Genesis meaning of the word.

[D. Allan]

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I guarantee you she'll know if you're not really listening!

Yeh...I know. Its hard isn't it Gerry?

Just kidding, actually I'm lucky to have a Godly wife who has been patient with me for many years. She's been a good influence on me. And still is!

[bevin]

Believing in the Spirit of Prophecy is a vow

Believing that EGW had it is optional

There is no requirement on what the phrase actually means

I don't think the European SDA have ever accepted EGW in the same way that NAD ones have

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

#8 I accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and believe

that the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church.

#13 I accept that the Seventh-day Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship. I desire to be a member in this local congregation of the world church.

The shortened version of the vows includes the following:

#2 Do you accept the teachings of the Bible as expressed in the Statement of Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and do you pledge by God's grace to live your life in harmony with these teachings?

Fundamental Belief #17 is the Gift of Prophecy.

If someone want to somehow SPIN the baptismal vows so they do not include a belief in EG White, they would have to show how the gift of prophecy has been manifested in the SDA church thus marking it as the remnant church.