Problems In The White Community

[lazarus]

Lazarus I have some questions for you.

1. It has seemed to me, from your posts, that you think that all whites need to continually appologize or somehow make ammends for the geunine injustices done to blacks.

I think all whites folks should have more than a mere intellectual, factual understanding and appreciation for what happened in America's past concerning black people. If a white person comes to me and apologises for what has happened thats nice and thats encouraging. I don't expect them to keep apologising. They done have to apologise

I desire a willingness to listen and understand.

What many black people receive in return for their expressions of anger and grief is an attempt to minimise and justify the past actions of whites. Also there is an attempt to point out the current problems in that black community as if to say "we were right to treat you badly, look how messed-up your are anyway"

Has the American government ever given a formal apology? I do not know? If not why not? Even now there is a struggle in some commonwealths to give a apology.

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2. Do you think that it is possible for whites to genuinly love blacks and blacks to genuinly love whites without being suspicious of the other person, without looking down their noses at them, being able to "get on" with the future instead of being stuck in either gripes against affirmative action or slavery?

Yes it is. I see it all the time. I see white teens and black teens who are best friends. I see it less in the US than in the UK. I grew up in a community that was very mixed. I had all types of friends. We loved eachother for who we were. I have white pastor colleagues whom I love and respect.

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3. How do we:

a. love irregardless of color and yet affirm color differences?

The short answer is do it? Ask God for the strength and the desire and make a determination to practice love.

We have to treat people as individuals and not judge a person by the actions of 1, 5 or 25. Whenever I meet a new white person I genuinely meet them with an open mind. I'm not going to make an assumption about them because of what Redwood, Bravus or Shane have said on this forum or what 20 other previous white people have done/said in the past 10 years.

Of course, make it a practice to treat them as you would like to be treated. Its not easy at first but practice it.

I think we have to learn not to be threatened by differences. We need to expose ourselves to different cultures and ways of life. Read, try Mexican food, Ethiopian food, Jamaican food, American food!

I've found that people who have intentionally and systematically exposed themselves are less prejudical and more comfortable with other races.

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b. recognize injustices in the past and do our best to never treat each other with prejudice according to the past and somehow move on into a new future?

Talk, talk, talk. build relationships, Have a truth and reconcilliation comission like South Africa. Give people a chance to express their hurt and anger. Ask a black friend how they honestly feel about what has happened in the past. Probe, press listen and seek to empathise and understand.

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c. Can we as individuals move on and genuinely love, appreciate, uphold, and treasure each other EVEN if society NEVER catches up? Can we do this in our churches, with coworkers, employees etc?

We can have this experience in work, churches etc. It is being done as i mentioned in the CNN thread. Like I said In the other thread there were groups of white and black pastors reaching out to each other and thereby bringing healing to their communities. Some tough words and experiences were exchanged but now they are doing community projects together and worshipping together on a regular basis. Thats progress! Some societies in the world had been able to reconsile but we will have this battle until Jesus comes.

I've noticed some subtle shifts in people attitudes as we have discussed this issue. Some attitudes have softened and some have hardened.

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We aren't responsible for how our ancestors which we never knew reacted. AND we are still living with the consequences of what our ancestors did just like we are still dealing with the results of Eve's sin. There are wrongs that still need to be made right, absolutely. We ARE responsible for how WE act, how we raise our children, and how we treat each others. So my question has to do with today.....and what can we do to help rectify what is still wrong in our society.

I have never said that any white person is responsible for what has happened in the past. What we are responsible for is to bring healing and understanding. I believe the first step in this open up the issue not to bury it.

My guess is that the experienced among us could give more logical answers but thats my take.

peace

[Dr. Shane]

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Has the American government ever given a formal apology?

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This thread is not about the black community. Can we discuss the white community, please?

[Woody]

If Affirmation Action is not an apology ... I don't know what is.

[Woody]

Re: the greatness of The White Community v the sad black community [Re: lazarus]

Shane Shane

Admin of Spanish Forum www.foroadventista.com

Registered: 02/02/02

Posts: 11450

Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas Let's not make this a black verse white thread. I don't see anything positive coming from that.

Now we did hit on an issue in the white community - lack of community. Can we expand on this discussion and stay out of the black verse white conflict?

_________________________

When both extreames disagree with you, you must be in the middle.

Link > Shane's Page - updated 11/17/06

................................................................

Maybe I am confused about the title of the thread. Above Shane responded to the thread titled "the greatness of The White Community v the sad black community" Where did that come from? Is it NOT the title of the thread???

[lazarus]

Quote:

Has the American government ever given a formal apology?

:

This thread is not about the black community. Can we discuss the white community, please?

I'd be happy to, but some white folks love black folk so much that they keep bringing us into their business!

[Woody]

To be pointing fingers at Whites vs Blacks when you don't even know who the Whites are in this forum is wrong. You thought that B.Hussein Obama wasn't White. So ... lets not judge and accuse so quickly.

[Taylor]

Lazarus, I really appreciate your response to my questions. Thanks so much for your thoughtful responses!

[John317]

The problem with secualr society is that they tell gays they cannot change. They tell gays they must live out the gay lifestyle.

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And just what exactly is the gay lifestyle?

When people mention "the gay lifestyle" among gay men or women, gays think of (1) having romantic or sexual relationships with members of their own gender; (2) associating almost entirely with other gays; (3) perhaps going to gay bars and dancing and making gay friends; (4) doing "gay" things, such as dressing, putting on makeup and doing one's hair; (5) a male living as a female, or a female living as a male. For some gays it may include only two or three of these things.

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Is it something like the heterosexual lifestyle except between persons of the same gender?

Often, yes, it is close to that.

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Well, if you ask me there's no common "lifestyle" among gays any more than among heteros. Every single individual lives his/her life according to his/her individual style. Who's been appointed to investigate the private lives of any two persons living together, to judge whether or not it's "acceptable" lifestyle?? How far would you go? -- If they share a common living room? or share a common bathroom? or share a common bedroom? Or travel together on vacations?

I don't have any data on this, but I'd venture to guess that there are just as many celibate gay couples as celibate heteros. This does not mean they don't love each other; it only means their practice doesn't happen to include sexual intercourse.

I'm sure there are far fewer celibate gay male couples than there are celibate heteros. I never met a single one that I know of, and gays are much more open about dicussing that than straights are. For one thing there are two males in a relationship. The sexual energy and drive is totally different than between a man and a woman. For another thing if they aren't having sexual intercourse with each other, they're almost certainly playing around with someone else. Most of the so-called gay marriages I knew of were "open" as long as certain rules are followed. By heterosexual standards, most gays are highly promiscuous. It is not at all unusual for a gay man to have encounters with as many as a 1000 different males over about 35 years. Of course some have far fewer but still when compared to heterosexuals, most gays are extremely active. As might be expected, female gays are much more faithful to each other and tend to be monogomous and have longer lasting relationships.

I don't write this as a person who's proud to know these things. I wish I never went through them or knew anything about them. I feel that I wasted so many years living that way. But I am just so thankful that God has given me freedom from them and victory over them. I first mentioned being gay in ClubAd because I want people to know that Jesus Christ does help people overcome even the strongest temptations and most deep-seated sins. I live as a heterosexual and have four beautiful children from my marriage to a wonderful woman. They are not aware that I had a different life before. I may tell our children some day when they are older and able to understand. But for now I'm letting God lead me in that and in all other ways one day at a time. I feel that I will always be "gay" in my thinking and in my feelings about some things, yet God is helping me change and become what He wants me to be by sanctifying and washing me in the Holy Spirit, just as Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Shane

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Has the American government ever given a formal apology?

:

This thread is not about the black community. Can we discuss the white community, please?

I'd be happy to, but some white folks love black folk so much that they keep bringing us into their business!

I've been thinking that what we-- whites and blacks, especially those of us who are SDAs, committed as we are to this amazing message-- have to do is determine to love each other despite, and in some cases because of, our differences, and know that only the love of Jesus Christ and the conviction of the Holy Spirit can bring us together. We can't change each other; that's only done through study of the word, prayer, and worshiping together. Free and unconditional love makes people want to change and sets up a situation in which healing, or therapy, can take place. It doesn't mean people have to suppress their real thoughts or criticism or differences; but it means that they don't stop loving and knowing that in the end they are there to support each other in their attempts to find wholeness through the grace of God.

[lazarus]

To be pointing fingers at Whites vs Blacks when you don't even know who the Whites are in this forum is wrong. You thought that B.Hussein Obama wasn't White. So ... lets not judge and accuse so quickly.

I'm not really sure what you are saying in the first part of your post. I am surprised however that you seem to infer that you are a black man since you check black on the forms you fill in. Surely you wouldn't lie on your forms.

I think your probably the only person in our solar system who would declare Obama to be white!

Amelia's post didn't say he was white BTW.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Quote:

Has the American government ever given a formal apology?

:

This thread is not about the black community. Can we discuss the white community, please?

I'd be happy to, but some white folks love black folk so much that they keep bringing us into their business!

I know someone who has a black friend that calls him "whitewash" while he is asking him where he got his suntan.

They both have a great sense of "community." "He lives in his, and I live in mine."

Even the Latinos can only do what they do with Latinos.

The whole "community" thing is a mess.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Shane

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Has the American government ever given a formal apology?

:

This thread is not about the black community. Can we discuss the white community, please?

I'd be happy to, but some white folks love black folk so much that they keep bringing us into their business!

THIS is what I consider "finger Pointing" Laz ."I'd be happy to, but some white folks love black folk so much that they keep bringing us into their business!"

You may have a different perspective and may think the finger pointing is "hidden" but I do not.

And Laz ... you have no idea what by heritage is ... I have shared what my Mom's side is ... but I have never disclosed what my father's heritage is. So, don't pretend to know my culture and sit in judgment of me.

And Obama is Half Black and Half White. So you can call him black and I will call him white. And we will both be right.

Laz ... you state ... "Surely you wouldn't lie on your forms." Are you accusing me of lies when you don't even have a clue of my heritage? That would be a bold step to even infer something like that.

[John317]

I'd say the problem of slavery is no longer a problem in the white community, but that its consequences continue to play themselves out. I'm not talking about anything like reparations here, but quite specifically about the fact that it's not always easy for African-Americans to identify with one particular country or ethnicity, since that information was lost due to slavery. That in turn means that they may identify as proudly black, and that that shouldn't be a problem. (And to those who say it's just about skin colour, I'd say in that instance 'black' is just shorthand for African-American.)

I'd say all of us would be a lot better off if blacks would just forget about Africa and think of themselves as Americans, the same way my ancestors did when they came from Germany and England. One of my great-grandfathers refused to speak German after he came here, and I don't consider myself German-American or English-American. I am an American. It's an essential part of becoming fully integrated into American society. I don't have to remind myself and others that my skin color is beautiful. I rarely give my skin color a thought except when blacks remind me of it by calling me "cracker," "whitey," "white boy," "white guy," etc. I don't mind their calling me those things; I am just saying that except for blacks reminding me of color, I wouldn't give it a moment's notice.

There have been lots of immigrants who came to this country and went through a period where they also were hated and discriminated against: Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Swedish, etc. But they all are now totally integrated into American society. Blacks could do the same. Indeed, a lot of blacks have already done it but there are lots of blacks who still have a long ways to go. If I were black, I would refuse to be called African the same way I refuse to be called German or English. Because I am nothing but American, and that by itself is enough reason to be proud.

[Woody]

WOW !!! Thank you John 317 . That was well said. Applause, Applause.

[Naomi]

Agreed that we should be proud to be Americans.

Furthermore, just because our families came from a certain part of the world in no way is indicative of being one nationality. The majority of the population in America was all mixed up (bloodline, :-) ) long before coming to the Americas!

There are problems in all communities ....

Everyone has every right to be proud of their heritage; of who and what they are. Some are more verbal about their needs, desires, and preceived pain than others.

Sometimes it is politically incorrect to openly be proud of your ancestors. This breeds deep seeded resentment which sometimes plays-out in undesirable ways.

Perhaps Shane we should have a thread about what is good in the White Community. Maybe if we look long enough,deep enough, and hard enought something good may be discovered.

:duno Maybe not, just a thought ........

[John317]

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Has the American government ever given a formal apology?

:

This thread is not about the black community. Can we discuss the white community, please?

This is about the white community:

In 1985, my father and mother moved to Tennessee from Loma Linda, CA, where they had lived for the past 50 years. Now they built a house near the Tennessee River. Less than 10 miles from their new house, the people of that county had named a bridge in loving memory for General Forrest. Their neighbors were very friendly and offered my parents everything they needed, from tractors to trucks, and told my parents to keep them until they no longer had need of them. Then, one day after the house was built, my father, who was a pastor, heard about a black man who needed a place to stay. My father offered his basement for free. It consisted of two bedrooms, a kitchen, a large living room and two bathrooms.

Everything went fine until the neighbors, none of whom lived closer than half a mile away, heard that a black man was living in my parents basement. Some of these neighbors had lived on the same property and even in the same house their ancestors owned and lived in since before the Civil War. When they saw my parents letting that black man live at their house, those neighbors wouldn't have anything more do with my parents. They no longer phoned and they came and picked up all the nice things they had loaned. They didn't ask if my folks were done with them.

[Taylor]

What a story John 3:17 and how maddening! How people can act like that is beyond me!!! I JUST DON"T understand how ANYONE can treat another human badly based not on their actions, or their crimes, or anything "bad" but just their skin color! How in the WORLD has skin color been equated with "bad"? It is just as rediculous as saying that people with blue eyes are smarter than people with brown eyes. Absolutely rediculous! I applaud your Dad for doing what was right regardless of what the neighbors thought. You had a good dad! Too bad everyone in the world isn't like your Dad.

Excuse me as I now step off my soap box.

[John317]

What a story John 3:17 and how maddening! How people can act like that is beyond me!!! I JUST DON"T understand how ANYONE can treat another human badly based not on their actions, or their crimes, or anything "bad" but just their skin color! How in the WORLD has skin color been equated with "bad"? ...

Thank you, Taylor.

I'm not saying that Loma Linda is perfect or anything but it just illustrates that the "white community" is not all the same in all places, because I am sure that in Loma Linda, as well as elsewhere, you could find lots of people willing to do what my dad did. Nor would I want anyone to think that all southern whites are racist. There are a lot of unbiased, loving people there, too. It's just that racial prejudice is so deeply ingrained and an accepted way of life. When I traveled through the South once, I couldn't get a room at a certain motel in New Orleans because the man who came to the door said it was for blacks only. The laws made discrimination illegal but what the laws can't change are people's hearts.

[John317]

I think your probably the only person in our solar system who would declare Obama to be white!

Amelia's post didn't say he was white BTW.

Hi Lazarus,

I had an army buddy who was half black and half white. I will never forget how he cried one day and said that he would never wish his worst enemy would have to go through what he had been through in his life. He said he didn't feel accepted by blacks and he didn't feel accepted by whites, either.

I think maybe it is time that we accept anyone like that as white if they want to be accepted that way. When someone is half white and half black, why do we always assume they are "black" and not white? I am not saying Obama is white-- I don't know. But supposing he says he thinks of himself as white and wants others to refer to him as white, is that so ridiculous? I am sure most people think so, but maybe we should begin to change our ideas about that. I admit it isn't easy but I think it's something we have to be willing to strive to do if we want to see a color blind world and if we want to stop the pain that comes from focusing on the color of people's skin.

[Naomi]

Nor would I want anyone to think that all southern whites are racist. There are a lot of unbiased, loving people there, too. It's just that racial prejudice is so deeply ingrained and an accepted way of life. When I traveled through the South once, I couldn't get a room at a certain motel in New Orleans because the man who came to the door said it was for blacks only. The laws made discrimination illegal but what the laws can't change are people's hearts.

Having lived in Northern states and being young, idealist, I was a strong supporter and worked for equal rights I had a shock when I moved to and worked in the southern states. Even today being a white women traveling alone in the deep south is often difficult.

After a while it is easy to become defensive. In my opinion that is one of the reasons that laws can't eliminate discrimination on either side.

I could, but won't, give you some personal experiences of being humiliated, scared etc.

[Kountzer]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I'd say the problem of slavery is no longer a problem in the white community, but that its consequences continue to play themselves out. I'm not talking about anything like reparations here, but quite specifically about the fact that it's not always easy for African-Americans to identify with one particular country or ethnicity, since that information was lost due to slavery. That in turn means that they may identify as proudly black, and that that shouldn't be a problem. (And to those who say it's just about skin colour, I'd say in that instance 'black' is just shorthand for African-American.)

I'd say all of us would be a lot better off if blacks would just forget about Africa and think of themselves as Americans, the same way my ancestors did when they came from Germany and England. One of my great-grandfathers refused to speak German after he came here, and I don't consider myself German-American or English-American. I am an American. It's an essential part of becoming fully integrated into American society. I don't have to remind myself and others that my skin color is beautiful. I rarely give my skin color a thought except when blacks remind me of it by calling me "cracker," "whitey," "white boy," "white guy," etc. I don't mind their calling me those things; I am just saying that except for blacks reminding me of color, I wouldn't give it a moment's notice.

There have been lots of immigrants who came to this country and went through a period where they also were hated and discriminated against: Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Swedish, etc. But they all are now totally integrated into American society. Blacks could do the same. Indeed, a lot of blacks have already done it but there are lots of blacks who still have a long ways to go. If I were black, I would refuse to be called African the same way I refuse to be called German or English. Because I am nothing but American, and that by itself is enough reason to be proud.

Who said anything about not being american, of not being proud to be an american? How old are you anyway? I'm thinking you can't be no more than 15. Ain't no way a grown man or woman with good sense could post some of the sophomoric drivel that rolls off your keyboard.

I am secure with being a part of this country. I was born here. So were my great great ancestors. Just because I don't fart 'yankee doodle dandy' every time I eat a bowl of beans doesn't mean I somehow dislike or disown my country.

Besides, being african american is a unique state of being. It is not necessarily african, nor is is uniquely american. At the same time it is as american as apple pie. Who knows? the 1st person to bake an american apple pie was probably a black nanny. I'm willing to venture you could take a poll of 1,000 black americans, from every section and class, and ask them what it means to be an american, and each one would give you a different answer. The answers would probably run the range from sprinters John Carlos and Tommy Smith lowering their heads and giving the black gloved, black power salute on the victory podium in '68, to George Foreman waving the flag and giving a victory thankyou nod during the same olympics. And each response would be correct in its own way. Db

[David Koot]

I've been reading the posts on this thread. Man, get off that hobby horse! Or, to mix metaphors, y'all are beating that pore old hoss to death! Get a life. There is a great work to do for God. Better to focus on that than to play the race card.

Dave

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I'd say all of us would be a lot better off if blacks would just forget about Africa and think of themselves as Americans, the same way my ancestors did when they came from Germany and England. One of my great-grandfathers refused to speak German after he came here, and I don't consider myself German-American or English-American. I am an American. It's an essential part of becoming fully integrated into American society. I don't have to remind myself and others that my skin color is beautiful. I rarely give my skin color a thought except when blacks remind me of it by calling me "cracker," "whitey," "white boy," "white guy," etc. I don't mind their calling me those things; I am just saying that except for blacks reminding me of color, I wouldn't give it a moment's notice.

There have been lots of immigrants who came to this country and went through a period where they also were hated and discriminated against: Irish, Chinese, Japanese, Swedish, etc. But they all are now totally integrated into American society. Blacks could do the same. Indeed, a lot of blacks have already done it but there are lots of blacks who still have a long ways to go. If I were black, I would refuse to be called African the same way I refuse to be called German or English. Because I am nothing but American, and that by itself is enough reason to be proud.

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Who said anything about not being american, of not being proud to be an american?

No one, certainly not I. You simply misunderstood what I wrote. Perhaps you might want to go back and reread it to be sure you understood it. I assure you I never implied that blacks are necessarily any less proud to be American than whites are.

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How old are you anyway? I'm thinking you can't be no more than 15. Ain't no way a grown man or woman with good sense could post some of the sophomoric drivel that rolls off your keyboard.

Only since you asked, friend:

I am in my 50s and have degrees from two different public colleges and one from Loma Linda University. I have also taken classes in the History of the Negro in America taught by a black American professor and have been working for the past 20 years near Los Angeles with black gang youth and mostly with black staff members. I remember and took a deep interest in the Civil Rights Movement when I was just a youth, and I used to admire many black leaders, including Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael, Huey P. Newton, and Malcolm X, whose many taped talks I listened to over and over again and which we discussed at great length in class. I even met and talked personally with Eldridge Cleaver at the University of Redlands when he spoke there in 1984. So, while I am by no means an opponent of black people, neither do I like a person just because he is black. All races have more than their share of bad people. I believe in Martin Luther King's maxim that people ought to be judged by the content of their character.

It's likely that you feel the way you do because you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Ever since I was a kid I have been writing, my earliest job during high school being as a rewriter of human interest stories for the Loma Linda Bulletin, some years after which I studied English Composition at California State University and Humboldt State U. I taught a writing class at Cal State U as part of the Master's requirement. Recently I've enjoyed teaching adults to read and write at the local library in the adult literacy progam. So, you see, what I am saying is that I can't understand what it is about my writing that you have found to be such "drivel."

Nevertheless I invite you to help me see it with my own eyes. I'd like to delete it if you can show me any and I am absolutely positive you can do it. I hate that sort of thing as much as you apparently do yourself.

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I am secure with being a part of this country. I was born here. So were my great great ancestors. Just because I don't fart 'yankee doodle dandy' every time I eat a bowl of beans doesn't mean I somehow dislike or disown my country.

Besides, being african american is a unique state of being. It is not necessarily african, nor is is uniquely american. At the same time it is as american as apple pie. Who knows? the 1st person to bake an american apple pie was probably a black nanny. I'm willing to venture you could take a poll of 1,000 black americans, from every section and class, and ask them what it means to be an american, and each one would give you a different answer. The answers would probably run the range from sprinters John Carlos and Tommy Smith lowering their heads and giving the black gloved, black power salute on the victory podium in '68, to George Foreman waving the flag and giving a victory thankyou nod during the same olympics. And each response would be correct in its own way. Db[/quote']

I just love your last section. You've really expressed some worthwhile thoughts.

Now please go back to the first section and reread what I wrote and then calmly analyze it, telling me what it is exactly that you felt meant that you have no pride in being American. It's always possible I wrote something in my half-sleep so that I scarcely knew what I was saying because I often write soon after coming home from having worked all night. My sincere apologies to you, friend, if I wrote anything that hurt your feelings. Please believe me when I say that my only intention has always been to write the truth as I see it.

God bless and have a wonderful Sabbath!!

[John317]

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Having lived in Northern states and being young, idealist, I was a strong supporter and worked for equal rights I had a shock when I moved to and worked in the southern states. Even today being a white women traveling alone in the deep south is often difficult.

I'm sincerely sorry to hear of your disillusionment. I hope those things won't cause you to lose your ideals, because, in spite of some bad people, your ideals are worth keeping alive and working toward.

It sounds like you got many of your ideas about certain things in the South from the mass media, but of course when it comes to that sort of thing, they don't tell all of the truth or even half of it. For to tell all of the truth would be too disturbing. Most people don't like the real truth; they just like thinking they do when they can believe a lie that makes them feel good and persuade themselves that it's the truth.

That is what I meant a while back when I said that there's a great gulf fixed between what I experience and what political correctness requires people to believe about race and race relations in this country. Back before the Civil Rights Movement, political correctness required people to believe some lies, and it is the same today, only they're a different set of lies.

If a person chooses to tell the truth about what he has experienced and if those experiences don't agree with the politically correct view, he better be prepared for people to try and intimidate him in various ways into keeping quiet or into saying what they want to hear. However, attempts at intimidation are an almost daily occurrence at my job and even in my work as a photographer on the streets of Los Angeles, so I am used to it. Besides, I used to run with guys who intimidated others and so I got to see it from the point of view of the intimidators. Some of these intimidators have learned that the ones they want to manipulate would rather do almost anything than get screamed at and called names in public, so that's the very thing they do until the individual who's intimidated does what they want.

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After a while it is easy to become defensive. In my opinion that is one of the reasons that laws can't eliminate discrimination on either side.

I could, but won't, give you some personal experiences of being humiliated, scared etc. [/quote']

You have a good point about why the laws can't eliminate discrimination. Discrimination from either side comes out of the heart, and people's hearts are often hardened by the bad experiences they suffer at the hands of those of the other race. We all need to determine that we will be one of those who ends the cycle of hatred, that we will always treat others as we want to treated, no matter what others may do to us.

I'm sorry about any humiliation and fear you may have experienced. I know about those things too. So I can imagine yours. This is as good a place as there is anywhere to talk about it. People really need to know so they can understand what it is like. Otherwise they might, like you did for a time, go on believing an untruth.

[Kountzer]

I was just reading about Eldredge Cleaver. How he became a republican and an evangelical christian. If he wanted to be a republican, that's okay. I guess he wasn't that big of a fraud. I never heard him lecture. I did hear stokely carmichael. the stuff he was saying was passe, but he still was talking that revolutionary gibberish.

I've read the autobiography of malcolm x 3 or 4 times. After reading the liner notes about how the ghost writer, Alex Haley, had a career in the us coast guard, I too joined the coast guard. I have also read a lot about martin luther king, jr, heard all the sermons, read some of the biographies.