Problems In The White Community

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

In honor of MLK day ...

I will tell you what racism is ... Racism is when you have a Black history month or week or year ... but you are not allowed to have a White History day or hour or even a minute. You are not even allowed to have an Asian or Arab minute or day.

The history channel is really the white history channel. I believe it on 24hrs a day, 365 days a year. Its a white history channel because 90% of its progamming is about the what white people have done. Its not bad in itself, thats the way it is. If you were to have a white history day what would you celebrate or talk about that is not already celebreated throughout the year?

I am glad to hear that the History channel is so FAIR. I can see that from your post that you would like the channel to be slanted. But , NO ... as you cite ... it has 90% non-black programming. And since blacks make up approx 10% of the population ... I would have to say that the programming is proportionate given your stats.

The problem with racism is that it runs both ways. Blacks scream and scream because they always want more and more. When they get a fair proportionate amount they think it is discrimination.

How can you demand a higher proportion than you have population?

Perhaps Laz ... You could tell me what significant history of Blacks in the US has been avoided by the History Channel?

[lazarus]

Quote:

=Redwood

I am glad to hear that the History channel is so FAIR. I can see that from your post that you would like the channel to be slanted.

But it is "slanted". Like I said in my post its not bad in itself.

Quote:

But , NO ... as you cite ... it has 90% non-black programming. And since blacks make up approx 10% of the population ... I would have to say that the programming is proportionate given your stats.

My guess is that minorities make up a greater proportion of 10%. Whites make up much less than 90%. In about 25 years they'll be in the minority!

I like the history channel by the way.

Quote:

The problem with racism is that it runs both ways. Blacks scream and scream because they always want more and more. When they get a fair proportionate amount they think it is discrimination.

How can you demand a higher proportion than you have population?

I'm not sure where my post was demanding anything? Just making demanding observations!

[John317]

I think we are starting to drift into problems in the black community. While these may or may not be problems blacks are dealing with, I think it helpful if this thread focuses more on problems in the white community.

Is whites lack of racial pride or cultural heritage something it needs to deal with?

A few points should be made about this:

1) Whites don't emphasize their pride in being white or in their cultural heritage because the majority of whites simply take their cultural heritage for granted.

2) Many whites are afraid of being called "racist," or of the controversy caused, if they talk about being proud of being white.

3) Many young whites feel more in common with blacks than with whites because of their admiration for black rap artists and for the recordings they've produced.

4) Whites have not focussed on white pride or their cultural heritage in such a long time that many have forgotten what specifically those things point to.

5) Schools don't help the students understand what it means to be proud of being white. "White Clubs" are judged to be racist and discriminatory.

6) No time is devoted strictly to white pride or to a review of white history. For instance, there is no "White History Month." It is not thought to be necessary because people assume (wrongly) all whites already know their roots and their history.

[Woody]

Regarding : " Many whites are afraid of being called "racist," or of the controversy caused, if they talk about being proud of being white."

Hyveth Williams just spoke today at Andrews Seminary . In her message she made the statement that she disliked people coming up to her and stating that they have "black" friends. Her message was that we should not consider color.

I would point out that it is the Black's fault that the whites are overly defensive about color and try to prove that they are not racist.

It is the Blacks that portray the Whites as not liking Blacks. So the Whites have to go around proving that they find no fault with Blacks. I personally believe that there is very little racism in the White Community. It is a real minority and isolated to the South.

I do believe that there is racism against Whites and it is far more prevelant than the other way around. It just doesn't get the publicity

[John317]

I hesitate to tell the following experience that I had on the morning of Martin Luther King Day because I find it embarrassing to tell it. I wish I could say it never really happened but I am sorry to say it is absolutely true. I would like to know what people think of the grandmother and of her grandson.

...Yesterday morning, shortly before finishing up at my job, I had a conversation with one of my fellow co-workers, a tall black man named Stanley in his early thirties.

It started out by my asking Stanley how he was going to spend Martin Luther King Day, which was beginning that same morning. After we talked about one thing and another for about five minutes, Stanley mentioned that he had an uncle that used to be able pass for a white man. He asked his uncle, who lived in Savannah, Georgia, what would have happened if whites had found out that he, a Negro, was eating in the white section. He said he reckoned he'd have been lynched sure.

Then Stanley went on to say that this uncle of his told him about his grandmother who worked during the 1940s and 50s as as a maid and cook for a white family. Stanley described the white family as "racist" without saying what qualified them as such. He said his grandmother got her revenge on that white family but good. Here's how she did it: she cooked a chocolate cake for the head of the family, only she got one of the male workers who had come down sick with diarrhea to relieve himself into a large bucket and this bucket she emptied into the cake mix. He said his grandmother made the most delicious cake with that mix and that the family thought it was the tastiest cake they'd ever eaten. My black co-worker laughed and laughed at the fact that his grandmother fed that white family for years what they thought was sumptuous, nutritious food but which he said was in reality a lot of s--- just like what she put into that chocolate cake.

Stanley took pleasure in telling me his grandmother also regularly served up her urine mixed in their favorite whiskey, and she did all this for years and never failed to do it with the most pleasant smile lighting up her dark face. He told me through his laughter that this happened to a lot of white families who hired black cooks and housekeepers.

I felt highly relieved recalling that my family had never had a black cook.

------------------------------

Consider:

1) The teller of the story seemed happy at what his grandmother did to get back at the white family for whom she worked during the 1940s and 1950s. He did not appear in the least ashamed. He evidently thought it was appropriate and what all "racist" whites deserve. Ironically, he was telling this to me on the day we celebrate Martin Luther King, who would have condemned what the grandmother did.

2) Stanley considers himself a Christian, yet what he was defending is contrary to what the Bible teaches. For instance, in the Sermon on the Mount and in the book of Philemon.

3) If the grandmother did not like the white family and thought they were "racist," wouldn't it have been the right thing for her to find other employment rather than do what she did? Is it ever right for people in that situation to "get back" at others as she did for their wrong attitudes? For instance, would it ever be right under any circumstances for a white cook working for a black family to do what the grandmother did?

[Naomi]

Regarding : " Many whites are afraid of being called "racist," or of the controversy caused, if they talk about being proud of being white."

I would point out that it is the Black's fault that the whites are overly defensive about color and try to prove that they are not racist.

It is the Blacks that portray the Whites as not liking Blacks. So the Whites have to go around proving that they find no fault with Blacks. I personally believe that there is very little racism in the White Community. It is a real minority and isolated to the South.

I agree ...to a point ... I am not sure that it is isolated to the South.

Quote:

I do believe that there is racism against Whites and it is far more prevelant than the other way around. It just doesn't get the publicity

Couldn't agree more!!

[Woody]

I am not really sure of the purpose of this story from John 317. Perhaps others will tell me.

[John317]

Quote:

But , NO ... as you cite ... it has 90% non-black programming. And since blacks make up approx 10% of the population ... I would have to say that the programming is proportionate given your stats.

My guess is that minorities make up a greater proportion of 10%. Whites make up much less than 90%. In about 25 years they'll be in the minority!

In some places, of course, whites already are in the minority, such as in areas close to the Mexican border.

What would this country have been like if whites had always been a minority? What, for instance, would our government, economic system and culture be like if the primary influence and the designers had been African, Native American or Mexicans?

And what changes can we anticipate when the whites become a minority and the majority are no longer protestant but Roman Catholic?

[Amelia]

Some areas of Mexico are predominantly white. These are the areas that retirees from the USA are building their gated communities on the cheap.

[Woody]

The Blacks have their own television station. It is called Black Entertainment (BET). I wonder if they practice what Laz preaches ... and shows proportionate shows of Whites vs Blacks. I would wager that the History Channel does a better job.

Laz ... if you feel they don't ... I would like to hear what major Black stories are overlooked by the History Channel. I've seen a number of programs there about slavery and Black heros such as MLK.

[John317]

I am not really sure of the purpose of this story from John 317. Perhaps others will tell me.

After reading your post here, I added a few questions at the end of the story in order to help readers understand its purpose. Others may see additional purposes in it but I've offered the ones that I thought of when I was thinking over what Stanley told me.

[John317]

Some areas of Mexico are predominantly white. These are the areas that retirees from the USA are building their gated communities on the cheap.

Yes, quite a few retirees do go to live in Mexico because of the cheaper prices down there for everything. I hope they are aware that it is legally impossible for Americans who aren't Mexican citizens to own real property in Mexico. Many think they own it until the Mexican government comes along and repossesses it.

[Dr. Shane]

Again, I think we are getting into a discussion about the black community instead of the white community.

What I meant about racial price perhaps is better charachterized as ethnic pride. One big ethnical celebration is, of course, St. Patrick's Day, when the Irish celebrate being Irish. Oktoberfest is another ethnical celebration of Germans both in Germany and Minnesota. And then there are various Renaissance fairs and festivals which foster English pride. There are also Italian festivals in Oklahoma, Ohio and of course Italy. Texas and Georgia host Greek celebrations too.

So my question is if this is something the White community needs to do more of.

[John317]

The Blacks have their own television station. It is called Black Entertainment (BET). I wonder if they practice what Laz preaches ... and shows proportionate shows of Whites vs Blacks. I would wager that the History Channel does a better job.

Laz ... if you feel they don't ... I would like to hear what major Black stories are overlooked by the History Channel. I've seen a number of programs there about slavery and Black heros such as MLK.

As far as I can tell, the Black Entertainment station never shows films that are primarily about whites. At least I haven't seen any on there. In a way, there's no reason for it to show those kinds of films because there are already lots of channels devoted mostly to films with a majority of the parts acted by whites. I would like to see BET show more of a variety of black programming, such as more on the history of blacks, some good discussions about social issues, literature and education. But of course BET's programming is based on what its directors think will attract the most viewers. However, I think they have a responsibility to help educate and lead and not just offer what is most popular because of financial considerations. They might already consider those things but it doesn't seem like it.

[Woody]

I think the difference is that blacks celebrate being Black and Whites celebrate being Irish, Italian, or German.

The difference is that in my mind ... color does not matter. It only matters to the Blacks. But what does matter is the culture of the country that your heritage is from. It could be Kenya or Uganda ... but celebrate that instead of Color.

[Naomi]

So my question is if this is something the White community needs to do more of.

Shane, it would be nice if the white community could do more. In many areas of the USA\America white people are the minority race. However, white's can not do or say anything which could be construed as "pride" due to fear of the race label. To be white, to celebrate your race is definitely not politically correct. Moreover, retaliation comes in many forms. Consequently, it becomes a mute point.

[Woody]

I still say that celebrating your color is not needed. My all means celebrate the heritage of the country of your families. But I don't see how color has a heritage or culture.

[John317]

Again, I think we are getting into a discussion about the black community instead of the white community.

What I meant about racial price perhaps is better charachterized as ethnic pride. One big ethnical celebration is, of course, St. Patrick's Day, when the Irish celebrate being Irish. Oktoberfest is another ethnical celebration of Germans both in Germany and Minnesota. And then there are various Renaissance fairs and festivals which foster English pride. There are also Italian festivals in Oklahoma, Ohio and of course Italy. Texas and Georgia host Greek celebrations too.

So my question is if this is something the White community needs to do more of.

I would say yes, it does. At least I would like to see more of it. One problem, however, that I have with the way some of those celebrations you mentioned are held is that they often seem to focus on drinking alcohol. That was OK when I was in Germany and celebrated Oktoberfest and other German holidays because I drank alcohol back then, but I don't do that any more and I don't like to take my kids where there's a lot of drinking.

I myself would love to see more Shakespeare theater as well as Greek theater. So much of our white, Western culture and values come out of ancient Greece and Rome. The ancient Greek stories and plays emphasized character, nobility and bravery in the face of tragedy, suffering, and apparent meaninglessness.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Shane

So my question is if this is something the White community needs to do more of.

Shane, it would be nice if the white community could do more. In many areas of the USA\America white people are the minority race. However, white's can not do or say anything which could be construed as "pride" due to fear of the race label. To be white, to celebrate your race is definitely not politically correct. Moreover, retaliation comes in many forms. Consequently, it becomes a mute point.

Well, I for one refuse to be intimidated by fear of being called racist. I have to deal with people trying to manipulate others through using the race card practically every day. It's "Hey, you won't let me do such and such because you don't like Mexicans or blacks." I just write them up for attempting to manipulate staff and that usually puts a stop to it. It is almost always new kids who say that but they do try it because they've learned that it often works. They do it on the streets and they find that white "crackers" generally back down.

I was a young teenager when the civil rights movement was just beginning. I admired the men taking part in it. I hated the way blacks were mistreated. I would talk to my mom about how Martin Luther King and others with him were doing what had to be done in order to make our nation just and fair. But I also remember that there were whites in the South who were saying that if you make these blacks equal with whites, they will soon want to be more than equal; they would soon be sleeping with your white women and they will be trying to dominate and intimidate you. I didn't believe them. Some of the things those people warned of did come true. Nevertheless I am glad the civil rights movement took place and I feel a strong sense of pride for the improvement in race relations in this country. If blacks had chosen to follow the way of Malcolm X rather than Martin Luther King, there could have been a violent instead of a non-violent revolution. There could have been many Watts' Riots all across the nation. Thank God it didn't happen that way.

I am really happy now to see blacks succeeding and to see so many getting at last what they should have had a long time ago. America is a better place for it, and I want to see it get even better that way. I have faith it will. But all of us, both white and black, have got to work hard in order for that to happen.

[John317]

Regarding : " Many whites are afraid of being called "racist," or of the controversy caused, if they talk about being proud of being white."

Hyveth Williams just spoke today at Andrews Seminary . In her message she made the statement that she disliked people coming up to her and stating that they have "black" friends. Her message was that we should not consider color.

I would point out that it is the Black's fault that the whites are overly defensive about color and try to prove that they are not racist.

It is the Blacks that portray the Whites as not liking Blacks. So the Whites have to go around proving that they find no fault with Blacks. I personally believe that there is very little racism in the White Community. It is a real minority and isolated to the South.

I do believe that there is racism against Whites and it is far more prevelant than the other way around. It just doesn't get the publicity

Yes, I am of course familiar with Hyveth Williams as she is the pastor at a church I sometimes attend. I've enjoyed many of her sermons.

I agree that we should not consider color, but that is an impossibily in the world in which we live. I try not to consider it but I am constantly being forced to consider it. For instance, as I write I am listening to blues, and you can't hear it without giving consideration to race and color. But I enjoy thinking of color in that way. I am not forced to listen to it; I love listening to it. It tells such an essential part of our American lives. It's something to celebrate too.

Hyveth did not grow up American so she may not be completely in tune with, or fully appreciate, the subtleties of race relations here.

[Bravus]

Quote:

I think the difference is that blacks celebrate being Black and Whites celebrate being Irish, Italian, or German.

The difference is that in my mind ... color does not matter. It only matters to the Blacks. But what does matter is the culture of the country that your heritage is from. It could be Kenya or Uganda ... but celebrate that instead of Color.

I get your point here, but see a couple of problems with it.

The first is that the countries themselves in Africa are largely the results of colonial powers drawing maps and fighting for territory, and are relatively recent inventions. Black South Africans, for example, are much more likely to identify as Zulu or Xhosa or Basotho ('basoo-too') than as South African. So I'd substitute 'culture' for 'country' in what you said.

But the second point is that most African-Americans' ancestors were ripped from their native lands by slavers and brought to America, in some cases via the Carribean or other places. Many black Americans don't *know* what cultural group they originally belonged to, because that history has been taken from them. So in many ways 'African-American' is an identity in itself, and I don't think we have the right to claim it's one that shouldn't be celebrated.

As has been repeatedly pointed out from the other direction, my celebrating my Irish roots doesn't harm anyone else, and neither does someone celebrating their African-American roots.

I think one reason that celebrating 'whiteness' does have a stigma attached to it is the very real history of white supremacist movements. All it takes is a bit of a google search to see that 'white pride' in about 90% of cases is strongly associated with racism, extremism and hate. That's unfortunate, because that's not a necessary association, but it's a reality that it's disingenuous to pretend doesn't exist.

[John317]

It's no big deal but you credited me with saying something that Redwood actually said.

What Redwood said makes a lot of sense for many whites but quite a few whites are about as ignorant of their national background as most blacks are of their tribal background. Wouldn't it be great if they could do DNA tests of blacks and be able to tell them someday about their origins.

Many Germans, Italians from the north, and Irish people are essentially from the same race-- Germanic tribes, which make up most of the present German, French and English peoples. Most American whites are such a mixture that it doesn't make sense to think of themselves as a member of one European nationality. For instance, while I am mostly English and German, I also have Norman, Scottish, and Irish ancestory. It's not surprising since these peoples all invaded the British Isles and intermarried. The Saxons were invited by the original tribes of England to help them drive off Norse invaders and when they got done helping them, they decided to stay and take over the Island themselves.

[Bravus]

Nope, I knew it was Redwood - this is just another example of the threaded versus flat structure of the forum... I wasn't responding directly to you, but to the post I quoted. Anyway, no harm done, I hope.

[Woody]

John 317 you have made some good points that I must consider. So let me ammend my statement. I would suggest that the Black celebrate any cultural desire they want. Just don't relate it to a color of skin. They can take it back to what ever tribe they want to identify with.

[Woody]

Bravis ... Regarding what you said :

"I think one reason that celebrating 'whiteness' does have a stigma attached to it is the very real history of white supremacist movements"

...........................................................

I would propose that celebrating "Blackness" has a black supremacist movement stigma. And in fact many. An early one was Malcom X.