Reaching Post-Moderns & Ed Dickerson

[D. Allan]

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a systematized dogmaticism that requires every person to submit their thought and souls to the authority of "leaders" in a church.

If I saw the church that way, I could neither belong nor ask others to.

Who could? Unfortunately there are some of us for whom it seems that way. Usually the people seem nice until they get behind a pulpit, then all authoritarianism breaks loose.

[bevin]

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In general, those under 35 consider homosexuality normal and healthy. They're ambivalent about marriage anyway, since, as they see it, so few make marriage work. This makes them generally open to letting anybody who wants to have a go at it-- after all, how much more messed up can it get? That would be their general take on it.

That should lead to an interesting SDA culture clash

/Bevin

[Taylor]

Very cool Stan! And Ed...it doesn't surprise me. Congratulations!!

[D. Allan]

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So in the SDA church there are fewer and fewer people thinking the same thoughts and speaking the same words as the Bible says we should. If we're constantly contradicting each other, and can't even agree among ourselves what is the truth, why should anyone believe we have the truth or know what we're talking about? Is it any wonder, then, that they don't believe any of us can find agreement? because it only confirms them in their distrust that there is anything like absolute truth.

See! Thats what I mean...., how can anyone even want to join a church that requires him/her to think exactly like every one else?

Actually the bibles call for unity is more for a unity of love. Romans 12

~d.allan

[Woody]

Well said Allen ... And as far as "truth". We will not understand "truth" until we are in heaven. It is not "truth" that saves us ... it is THE TRUE ONE that saves us. HE is the truth. And if we accept HIM then we have the truth. He is IN us.

I am glad that there is more and more thoughts and less absolute (elitism) truth in the church. I believe there needs to be less and less absolute truth and more and more gracious acceptance of where people are at. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to impress us. And it is not OUR job to judge the workings of the Holy Spirit in others. All will be lead differently on their Chrsitian walk

[D. Allan]

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IMHO sex, marriage and homosexuality are minor matters. We are not to judge others. The really major matter is: Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?

Yes, I do... but what i want to know is why do the conference officials... and other leaders... and even other church members want to interfer in that relationship?... they want to tell us how to do everything.

Jeannie, you are the type of Adventist I like. There are not enough like you.

~d.allan

[there buster]

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In general, those under 35 consider homosexuality normal and healthy. They're ambivalent about marriage anyway, since, as they see it, so few make marriage work. This makes them generally open to letting anybody who wants to have a go at it-- after all, how much more messed up can it get? That would be their general take on it.

That should lead to an interesting SDA culture clash

It's an interesting challenge in outreach, but there are plenty of those. After all, postmoderns don't really believe in sin, either, but it's a topic we have to address.

Jerry D. Thomas put his finger on where the culture clash within Adventism will take place.

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The world has changed and if we don't, we won't have a message anyone can relate to.

The implications of that statement-- which I believe is laser-accurate -- for the SDA denomination are tectonic in scale.

[cricket]

Well, it seems clear to me now, that Ed is sure of his target audience. And, most likely, he'll reach that sampling!

[John317]

Could you give an example of a postmodern person you've seen become a Seventh-day Adventist as a result of your approach.

Would you expect that by the time a postmodern person is baptized and joins the church, he/she will be a firm believer in the 28 fundamental doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church or would that now be considered an irrelevent goal?

[D. Allan]

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Could you give an example of a postmodern person you've seen become a Seventh-day Adventist as a result of your approach.

Would you expect that by the time a postmodern person is baptized and joins the church, he/she will be a firm believer in the 28 fundamental doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church or would that now be considered an irrelevent goal?

You will never reach a 'postmodern person' with an attitude (or expectations) like those! You have to be more concerned with the person - above all else. If you get her interested in Christ what more do you want? A 'member' who can help support a religious bureaucracy with lovely money? If s/he becomes a Methodist or Catholic - rejoice!

~d.allan

[there buster]

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Could you give an example of a postmodern person you've seen become a Seventh-day Adventist as a result of your approach.

I could, but I won't, for simple reasons of confidentiality and courtesy. My young friends-- and they are my good young friends -- would consider that an egregious invasion of privacy. And I agree with them.

One of the things that turns me off (and imagine how repulsive it is to those we wish to reach) is to hear anyone talking about how many scalps --er souls -- he has won. The best we can do is plant and water, God-- only and always God -- gives the increase.

If I am privileged to be a part of the planting and watering, my reward is great enough. I don't care who gets credit for the harvest. I have no idea how many stars there are in my crown-- I just want a crown, and want as many others whose lives I can touch to receive one also.

I have been privileged to have others whose direct responsibility it is to reach out for the denomination, choose me to write and represent our great worldwide church in print to many thousands of readers.

I study that audience and do my best to communicate the beauty--and I see great beauty in it--of the gospel, and yes, the Adventist message to that audience. It is up to others to judge how well I do that. The feedback I get, both from the audience themselves, and from editors and others, has been blessedly positive. That's the reason-- and the only reason, I am repeatedly offered the opportunity to write for them. I could not force my writing upon these editors, or my presentations upon those who arrange for speakers, if I wanted to.

In response to questions here, I have shared a small part of what I have learned about that audience--those varied audiences--for which I write, and to whom I speak. Beyond that, I have said nothing at all about how I approach them.

It is a mistake to assume what my approach is from a description of the audience.

[John317]

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Could you give an example of a postmodern person you've seen become a Seventh-day Adventist as a result of your approach.

I could, but I won't, for simple reasons of confidentiality and courtesy. My young friends-- and they are my good young friends -- would consider that an egregious invasion of privacy. And I agree with them.

One of the things that turns me off (and imagine how repulsive it is to those we wish to reach) is to hear anyone talking about how many scalps --er souls -- he has won. The best we can do is plant and water, God-- only and always God -- gives the increase.

That's OK. I guess I should have phrased my question more clearly. I wasn't asking for anyone's name but for something like a composite portrayal of your experience with postmodern people who become Seventh-day Adventists.

I understand about the scalps. But of course not all reporting on people being converted can be taken that way. For instance, the book of Acts' descriptions of preaching and people becoming Christian is not about "scalps." Such examples can be helpful in teaching others, as is often done in college classes on "soul winning."

The main reason I asked is that in a month or so, God willing, I'll be going into a nearby jail and giving Bible studies to groups of between 5 and 25 men. I'm sure many of these will be people whom you would regard as postmoderns. Also I have some postmodern, non-religious friends so I wanted to know what you say that has gotten their attention about the gospel.

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If I am privileged to be a part of the planting and watering, my reward is great enough. I don't care who gets credit for the harvest. I have no idea how many stars there are in my crown-- I just want a crown, and want as many others whose lives I can touch to receive one also.

I have been privileged to have others whose direct responsibility it is to reach out for the denomination, choose me to write and represent our great worldwide church in print to many thousands of readers.

I study that audience and do my best to communicate the beauty--and I see great beauty in it--of the gospel, and yes, the Adventist message to that audience. It is up to others to judge how well I do that. The feedback I get, both from the audience themselves, and from editors and others, has been blessedly positive. That's the reason-- and the only reason, I am repeatedly offered the opportunity to write for them. I could not force my writing upon these editors, or my presentations upon those who arrange for speakers, if I wanted to.

I think that's outstanding, Ed. I know it must be very gratifying to you to be able to use your writing talents in that way.

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In response to questions here, I have shared a small part of what I have learned about that audience--those varied audiences--for which I write, and to whom I speak. Beyond that, I have said nothing at all about how I approach them.

It is a mistake to assume what my approach is from a description of the audience.

I really like the concept of informal conversations with people about the gospel and sharing the Bible in a cafe-like setting. So many people just won't go to a church.

You must have opportunity to witness to others on a one-to-one basis. Do you give people Bible studies as well? What do you get the most satisfaction from-- talking to people individually or giving Bible studies or talking to larger audiences?

[John317]

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So in the SDA church there are fewer and fewer people thinking the same thoughts and speaking the same words as the Bible says we should. If we're constantly contradicting each other, and can't even agree among ourselves what is the truth, why should anyone believe we have the truth or know what we're talking about? Is it any wonder, then, that they don't believe any of us can find agreement? because it only confirms them in their distrust that there is anything like absolute truth.

See! Thats what I mean...., how can anyone even want to join a church that requires him/her to think exactly like every one else?

Actually the bibles call for unity is more for a unity of love. Romans 12

~d.allan

"Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfeclty joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (1 Cor. 1:10

I'm not suggesting that everyone should think exactly like everyone else. You're misunderstanding if that is what you think. We won't think exactly like everyone else in heaven or on the new earth, but we will all be in agreement on some very essential matters: we will all love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves, and we will all obey all of God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment.

The reason that it is important for Seventh-day Adventists to think and speak alike on certain issues is that if we don't, there is likely to be great confusion in the world about just what we do believe. For instance, if they read in a book published by Seventh-day Adventists that the dead are unconscious in their graves waiting for the resurrection, and then someone claiming to be SDA says that he doesn't believe that, I suppose we might have reason to think people will be confused about our beliefs. That's what I mean when I say we should be in agreement among ourselves. That is what the Bible teaches as well.

[John317]

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Could you give an example of a postmodern person you've seen become a Seventh-day Adventist as a result of your approach.

Would you expect that by the time a postmodern person is baptized and joins the church, he/she will be a firm believer in the 28 fundamental doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church or would that now be considered an irrelevent goal?

You will never reach a 'postmodern person' with an attitude (or expectations) like those! You have to be more concerned with the person - above all else. If you get her interested in Christ what more do you want? A 'member' who can help support a religious bureaucracy with lovely money? If s/he becomes a Methodist or Catholic - rejoice!

~d.allan

But I am not talking to a postmodern person. I'm talking to someone about what their expectations & goals are as they study with a postmodern. Is the goal to lead someone to accept Christ or is it to lead them to greater truth and finally to becoming a Seventh-day Adventist who believes in the Third Angels Message? To be a Seventh-day Adventist means more than someone who believes in Christ. If that is all it is, then we might as well quit being Seventh-day Adventists and join any other Christian group that accepts Jesus as Lord.

I would rejoice if they left the Methodist or Catholic church and became Seventh-day Adventists. Now that would certainly be something to rejoice about. But I'm not going to rejoice if they become a part of babylon, which is what the Catholic church and most of modern Protestantism is. I can rejoice that they have accepted Christ, yes, but if they go from that to accepting the false Catholic teaching regarding salvation, the Mass, confession to a human priest and the prayers to the dead-- I don't see any good reason to be happy about that.

As I recall, the second angel's message of Revelation 14:8 is that Babylon is fallen. That means that the churches, such as the Catholic church, have fallen away from the truth. My wife was Catholic when I married her, and almost all of her family is Catholic. I loved my wife when she was Catholic but I loved her enough that I rejoiced as she studied the Bible for herself and freely decided to become a Seventh-day Adventist. Now she is studying with her sisters about what the Bible teaches and they are listening. One sister was relieved to discover the truth about what happens when you die because she was afraid of her dead husband coming to visit her. Another sister believes she may get God to bless her son's operation if she crawls on her knees to pray to the virgin. That is what the Catholic church teachers her. Do you see anything to rejoice in that? I don't. They are not taught to look to Jesus but to look to the priest and to the saints and to Mary. They teach lies that lead people to be lost. I see nothing to rejoice about in people joining the Catholic church. It's true that God does have many people in the Catholic Church, but he is calling them to come out of it, not to join it. The seven last plagues will fall soon and if they are still in the Catholic church when they fall, the Bible says they will be destroyed.

[there buster]

I wouldn't regard most people in prison as postmodern. Using Peck & Havighurst's stages of moral development, I would say most of them are "amoral." Different kind of animal.

As far as a cafe setting, it has the added virtue of being true. Our church plant has indeed run a cafe-style outreach called, "Grounds for Beleif."

The book is not, of course, any kind of transcript. It is fictionalized to protect privacy, and to give the narrative flow, etc.

Dealing with postmoderns is something that I did, first, and at the urging of others, such as Jon Paulien, I analyzed and described after.

The whole subject is in some ways similar to riding a bicycle. You can describe it down to the minutest detail, but you really have to see it done, and then try it yourself.

My book portrays a series of characteristic encounters with this audience. It's an attempt to demonstrate what bicycle riding looks like, if you see what I mean.

I'm not dodging your question, and I'm not trying to drum up business, I'm telling you like it is. It's a complex, almost organic process.

I can explain it endlessly, but seeing it in action is more effective. That's one purpose of this first book.

Originally, my book was to show how to reach this audience, and another book was to come out at the same time to explain how.

For various reasons, the other book did not materialize. The other author may go ahead and write that book, or I may write one to explain. Right now no one knows.

My book--assuming it sells well--practically demands a sequel, to take the characters in the first book to the next stage of their experience. But that's all in the future. And it depends a great deal on how well the first book does.

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You must have opportunity to witness to others on a one-to-one basis. Do you give people Bible studies as well? What do you get the most satisfaction from-- talking to people individually or giving Bible studies or talking to larger audiences?

Most of the crucial work is always done with one person or a small group. That's again what is portrayed in my book.

For the most part, formal Bible studies are of no interest to postmoderns. Rather, they have questions. IF--and it's a big IF--IF you have Bible-based answers that you have experienced success with, those are welcomed.

But doctrinal, theological propositions in themselves are seen as irrelevant.

Don't ever start with "The Bible has the answer, and the answer is--" They won't laugh in your face, but they will excuse themselves, and probably never ask another question.

As far as the size of the grouop-- it's just a different experience. I've spoken to audiences of 800 or more--and that can be quite satisfying. Often such presentations generate individual questions. So it's all good. You just prepare and present differently.

[there buster]

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Is the goal to lead someone to accept Christ or is it to lead them to greater truth and finally to becoming a Seventh-day Adventist who believes in the Third Angels Message? To be a Seventh-day Adventist means more than someone who believes in Christ.

emphasis added.

Yes, but we must be very careful that it does not mean less.

My goal is to lead people first to Christ.

When they ask me about becoming an SDA-- and almost all eventually do ask-- I say this. "If you find that becoming an SDA enhances your walk with Christ, as I do, then by all means, join us."

That's an effort to keep things in the correct order. Because if we believe that being SDA is the best sort of Christian to be, then it is a natural step that most will automatically come to in time. But it is perfectly possible to adhere to the SDA lifestyle and doctrinal statements without really surrendering to Christ. That is a tragedy both for the individual and for the church.

[cricket]

I wouldn't regard most people in prison as postmodern. Using Peck & Havighurst's stages of moral development, I would say most of them are "amoral." Different kind of animal.

[John317]

I wouldn't regard most people in prison as postmodern. Using Peck & Havighurst's stages of moral development, I would say most of them are "amoral." Different kind of animal.

As far as a cafe setting, it has the added virtue of being true. Our church plant has indeed run a cafe-style outreach called, "Grounds for Beleif."

The book is not, of course, any kind of transcript. It is fictionalized to protect privacy, and to give the narrative flow, etc...

Thank you for that. I'll be buying your book, you may be sure. Sounds great!!!

Of course I imagine you would want to bring people to the point where they will want to know what the Bible teaches and even to put their trust in it. But I know that can be a long process, one requiring a great deal of patience and preseverence on your part.

I have found it worth while to go from door to door on Sabbath afternoons and introduce myself as a Seventh-day Adventist from the local church down the street and then ask if they would be interested in setting a time for me to come back during the week in order to study the Bible with them.

By the way, I wanted to ask you if you have read Francis Shaeffer's (sp?) books about communicating the gospel. I am sure you have. Did you find them at all helpful?

[John317]

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Is the goal to lead someone to accept Christ or is it to lead them to greater truth and finally to becoming a Seventh-day Adventist who believes in the Third Angels Message? To be a Seventh-day Adventist means more than someone who believes in Christ.

emphasis added.

Yes, but we must be very careful that it does not mean less...

I certainly agree with everything you said on this post. Christ is everything but there is more to Him and to His work than just the cross. There is what He did before the Cross and then there is also what He is doing today and what He will do at the parousia and afterwards. But the foundation of it all has to be a personal, faith-based, relationship with the living Christ. Sin el senior, nada es nada es nada.

[there buster]

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I imagine you would want to bring people to the point where they will want to know what the Bible teaches and even to put their trust in it. But I know that can be a long process, one requiring a great deal of patience and preseverence on your part.

Very much so. In the book I devote two chapters to that discussion, and it still may leave some traditionalist readers uneasy. But we start where people are, and we go no faster than they can go.

"My lord knows that the children are frail and that the flocks and herds which are nursing are a care to me. And if they are driven hard one day, all the flocks will die."

Yes, I have read Schaeffer. Interesting Schaeffer and his son Franky Schaeffer exemplify the modern/postmodern split.

Schaefer the father was a prominent proponent of a highly intellectual faith. Schaeffer the son left his father's denomination anc converted to the Greek Orthodox church in 1990 which he says "embraces paradox and mystery."

You can't make this stuff up.

I respect Schaeffer, but far more useful to me have been C. S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein

[bevin]

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Schaefer the father was a prominent proponent of a highly intellectual faith. Schaeffer the son left his father's denomination anc converted to the Greek Orthodox church in 1990 which he says "embraces paradox and mystery."

You can't make this stuff up.

It doesn't surprise me. A huge portion (my guess >90%) of traditional SDA embrace paradox and mystery and reject highly intellectual faith.

Look at

• the discussion on free-will - they can't define it, measure it, or even detect it, but can discuss it for pages.
• the complete "completely human, completely God" description of Christ
• the rejection of all the scientific evidence for an old earth
• the health message centered around 1870's ideas rather than science
• the whole topic of EGW and inspiration
• the various conspiracy theories that go around
• ...

If post-moderns want paradox and mystery rather than sense and intellect, they will certainly find that side of their personalities catered for in the SDA denomination

/Bevin

[there buster]

How sad to be a materialist.

[Taylor]

Ed, when is your book going to be published?

[there buster]

The official date is Feb 17th. Four weeks from now. When, exactly,it will be at the local ABC I know not.

[bevin]

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How sad to be a materialist.

Actually I find life to be very interesting. As you said "you can't make this stuff up".

Who would have thought that

• A twin circling the earth in a satellite ages slower than one on the earth
• That just by putting enough hydrogen into a small enough space, you can make a star which explodes and produces all the known elements
• Komodo dragons and other lizards usually sexually reproduce, but can reproduce without sex!
• You can't draw a map on a plane that needs more than 4 colors to make all adjacent countries have different colors
• That you could measure the electric effects of heart muscles, and use the results to choose treatments
• ...

Actually life has been a lot less frustrating since I realized that people are irrational and emotional and error-prone. Now I know that people make huge errors and it is possible to enjoy their company anyway.

/Bevin