Reaching Post-Moderns & Ed Dickerson

[Dr. Shane]

I started a new thread "Post-moderns & Evangelism" in the Real Issues in Adventism section so as not to take this one too far off topic. Perhaps Ed would be so kind as to address some questions I have there.

[John317]

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I imagine you would want to bring people to the point where they will want to know what the Bible teaches and even to put their trust in it. But I know that can be a long process, one requiring a great deal of patience and preseverence on your part.

I really appreciate that. We should never give up on people but keep praying and being open to them.

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"My lord knows that the children are frail and that the flocks and herds which are nursing are a care to me. And if they are driven hard one day, all the flocks will die."

Yes, I have read Schaeffer. Interesting Schaeffer and his son Franky Schaeffer exemplify the modern/postmodern split.

Schaefer the father was a prominent proponent of a highly intellectual faith. Schaeffer the son left his father's denomination anc converted to the Greek Orthodox church in 1990 which he says "embraces paradox and mystery."

You can't make this stuff up.

I didn't know about that. I haven't kept up with what's been happening with his family.

I once wrote to Schaeffer and got a very nice letter from his son Franky about his father being on the point of dying. He said his father was just finishing up on his life-work, How Should We Then Live? I think a film was involved but I have not seen it. I liked his books very much, however.

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I respect Schaeffer, but far more useful to me have been C. S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein

I have read and enjoyed quite a bit of C.S. Lewis, but although I have most of Tolkein's books in my library I have not read them. Just so much to read, I can't possibly read everything I would like to. I need about 50 years added to my life!

Thank you for your responses on this topic. I can't wait to read your book. I see it will be out in Feb.

[bevin]

"How Should We Then Live?"

I saw this film series when I was at Avondale in the late 1970's - it is excellent

/Bevin

[John317]

"How Should We Then Live?"

I saw this film series when I was at Avondale in the late 1970's - it is excellent

/Bevin

I saw only parts of it and based on the little I saw, I would love to buy the DVD if it's available. The book is excellent too.

[Jerry D Thomas]

During the time I was writing my last few books, including What We Believe, the 28 fundamental beliefs for kids, my wife and I met regularly with a small group of young people, twenty-somethings, including some of our own children.

Even though all of these kids have grown up in Adventist homes and been educated in our schools through at least a portion of college, as a group, they are very much postmodern thinkers. I often brought elements from my writing work to our discussions. We actually discussed each of the fundamental beliefs in turn. As the “truths” I had long known and taught were questioned from new angles, I had to rethink why I believe what I do and how I can communicate that effectively.

Here are some conclusions I’ve come to:

1. We can’t prove that anything we believe about God is true. We can’t prove that God is real. We can’t prove that the Bible is inspired, much less Ellen White. All our evidence is subjective—what we have felt in our own hearts, what we choose to interpret as answered prayer, divine intervention, or fulfilled prophecy.

2. Each of us has to decide, has to choose what we are going to believe. We choose our worldview—that God is real, that He created us and wants an eternity of peace and happiness for us instead of pain and death. We choose to believe that the Bible is the revelation of His will for us. That exercise of choice is called faith.

3. We can’t demand that others accept our faith for themselves. If we honestly believe that God endowed His created humans with free will, then we must honor their freedom not to believe.

4. We have only one authentic way of sharing faith with the postmodern generation. All we can do is say, “This is what I believe, and this is the difference it makes in my life.” Then, if our lives demonstrate a sense of peace, joy, and kindness that they haven’t otherwise seen, they may be interested in our beliefs. If not, no arguments about Scripture will be persuasive.

[Neil D]

I respect Schaeffer, but far more useful to me have been C. S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkein

How so, and in what ways?

[there buster]

Lewis' influence on me is literally incalculable. I would not be a Christian today, if I had not been introduced to his works in my teens, and read nearly everything he wrote in my mid-twenties.

Lewis asked the questions I wanted asked, and didn't flinch from the answers. But more than that, although an Oxford Don and quite intellectual himself, he understood that an intellectual faith is necessary, but not enough.

In my thirties, as my children began reading, I found "The Chronicles of Narnia." Like many others, at first they troubled me. But the more I read the more profound I saw them to be. Very few can capture the lightning of profound truth and put in a bottle of simple narrative. Lewis did it, again and again.

Later I found the same genius in Tolkien.

Both profoundly Christian men, both Oxford Dons, but both understood that we must feed the imagination, must appeal to the emotions, and must feed people's sense of aesthetics.

[Jeannieb43]

... we must feed the imagination, must appeal to the emotions, and must feed people's sense of aesthetics.

Thanks for that summary statement, Ed!

(Unfortunately, there aren't many SDA authors who could do it....)

[there buster]

There aren't many authors, who can do it, period. Certainly I make no such claim.

Of the many books Lewis wrote, several stand out.

Of course, Mere Christianity

The "biography of his conversion," Surprised by Joy.

To understand how today's culture became so corrupt, The Abolition of Man a book that accurately predicted the moral vacuum of today, but did so 50 years ago.

The Four Loves a little masterpiece.

A much neglected work, and fairly academic and dry in tone, but profound, is An Exercise in Criticsm

Of his many, many individual essays, two leap to mind.

The Weight of Glory and Transposition

[lazarus]

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Of the many books Lewis wrote, several stand out.

Of course, Mere Christianity

The "biography of his conversion," Surprised by Joy.

I have to agree here: I read both books in my first year of Architecture school riding around on the London "tube" system. CS Lewis had a profound effect on my understanding of God and what it means to be a Christian.

[D. Allan]

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"Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfeclty joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (1 Cor. 1:10

The same mind... That immediately cause me to think of Paul's statement, "...But we have the mind of Christ.

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I'm not suggesting that everyone should think exactly like everyone else. You're misunderstanding if that is what you think.

I misunderstood you then.

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We won't think exactly like everyone else in heaven or on the new earth, but we will all be in agreement on some very essential matters: we will all love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves, and we will all obey all of God's commandments, including the Sabbath commandment.

Well who can argue with that? Except for the last item, I agree. (And that is because I consider Heaven not bounded by Time or Space. It is possible to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, now.) (Note this, Ed: I'm standing up for my own creed!

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The reason that it is important for Seventh-day Adventists to think and speak alike on certain issues is that if we don't, there is likely to be great confusion in the world about just what we do believe. For instance, if they read in a book published by Seventh-day Adventists that the dead are unconscious in their graves waiting for the resurrection, and then someone claiming to be SDA says that he doesn't believe that, I suppose we might have reason to think people will be confused about our beliefs. That's what I mean when I say we should be in agreement among ourselves. That is what the Bible teaches as well.

Well, I suppose I'm back to misunderstanding you again Why should people be confused? They might say, "What a wonderful accepting bunch of people who don't force anything on their members, but allow them freedom of thought, (that is to say, freedom of religion - now there is a group where I can feel free and at home."

~d.allan

[Bravus]

I also like CS Lewis' little book 'Miracles'. It's fairly tough philosophical going, but does a lovely job on a difficult topic.

[D. Allan]

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Babylon

OH my, What can I say. Its hopeless. I'm beginning to think the Catholic church is much more broad-minded, much more grace oriented, much less works oriented, than the SDA church. And not much more authoritarian than the SDA church.

[Gail]

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4. We have only one authentic way of sharing faith with the postmodern generation. All we can do is say, “This is what I believe, and this is the difference it makes in my life.” Then, if our lives demonstrate a sense of peace, joy, and kindness that they haven’t otherwise seen, they may be interested in our beliefs. If not, no arguments about Scripture will be persuasive.

I had the idea that this is the method that Mrs. White prescribed- a converted life. I don't know how we got from that to some of the horror stories you hear about pushing our religion on others

The trick is that we actually have to have a vital, living relationship with the Lord, otherwise we won't know what we're talking about

[there buster]

Yes, I agree with everything you said about "Miracles." But it's pretty hard going for most readers.

"The Problem of Pain," is another.

There is a pretty large corpus of Lewisiana.

Already mentioned, "The Abolition of Man," is one of his most important.

There are some marvelous insights in "Letters to Malcolm, Chiefly on Prayer."

And I really cannot too highly recommend "The Weight of Glory" and "Transposition." These are essays, but some of Lewis at his most incandescent.

[D. Allan]

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Look at

the discussion on free-will - they can't define it, measure it, or even detect it, but can discuss it for pages.

I did offer a definition of free-will on that thread. No one challenged it so I assume it was accepted. The thread now has abandoned that topic and is going on for pages about wheather the world is in the contol of God or Satan!

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It doesn't surprise me. A huge portion (my guess >90%) of traditional SDA embrace paradox and mystery and reject highly intellectual faith.

And here I have been think that SDA are too intellectual because of all the teachings they construct. But I can see why you might call it paradox and mystery since some teachings seem to be using scriptures like clouds in the sky where one can find dragons and all kinds of creatures. Actually, I think most traditional SDA have a great fear of anything really mystical.

[D. Allan]

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Actually life has been a lot less frustrating since I realized that people are irrational and emotional and error-prone. Now I know that people make huge errors and it is possible to enjoy their company anyway.

Amen!

~d.allan

[Jeannieb43]

reading your solfeggio.....

"Jesus Loves Me"

I agree!!