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This business is supporting the organization. This business is publicizing the church emblems that are communicating by symbols and widening that circle of communication in nothing but positive communications. The laborer is worthy of his hire. This must be very disturbing to the business owners, they need prayer. Nothing good could come from destroying this business. They have serving the organizations needs for a long time.

The interesting part is that the 'trademarks' were allowed to be used for a long period of time without a 'cease and desist' order. So the the question is, why now? Are the profits such that it makes more sense to go after them now? The offer of licensing, what was that cost going to be?

i am appalled that the church is asking money from them to give permission to sell at a profit. if they just pay for the license they can sell them.... i may be mistaken but it does look like the church wants a cut from the sell of items with the church logos and Pathfinders name and logo. they did this for a long time and of a sudden they are being forbidden. hmmm...

Shane, That was a very well thought-out letter. But - just to be clear - I don't post my opinions of the Trinity or Holy Spirit to be a "rabble rouser"; and I doubt that Rachel does either. We are simply stating our current beliefs and the reasoning behind it. If people want to believe in a triune God, they are free to do so. I see a single God who manifests Himself as two beings - the Father in the heavenly realm and the Son in the physical realm. Because I put my faith in the Son, I doubt that this will be salvational issue. If I get to the Kingdom and Jesus tells me He disagrees with my position on the Trinity or divine personage of the Holy Spirit, with my open mind I am confident that I can be easily persuaded to accept His side of the story.

Luke 9: 49“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.” 50“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you."

I originally sent this as a letter to a family member. This is a long post but the topic is lengthy and not something that can be dealt with lightly. The words “Trinity” and “Godhead” within the Seventh-day Adventist church are used interchangeably. Some rabble rousers, that call themselves “historic Adventists,” try to split hairs over this. The church manual states, “That the Godhead, or Trinity, consists of the Eternal Father, a personal spiritual Being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, infinite in wisdom and love; the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, through whom all things were created and through whom the salvation of the redeemed hosts will be accomplished; the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, the great regenerating power in the work of redemption.” The Ellen White quotations in this post will be blue. The Bible quotations will be red. That will make the post easier to follow as you read it. Ellen White’s Position Adventists do not believe in the Trinity because of Ellen White. We believe in it because of the Bible. However, if we misunderstood the Bible, one would logically think that God would have revealed that error to Ellen White during her ministry. It is interesting that Ellen White did not clarify the doctrine of the Trinity until after her husband died. James White did not believe in the Trinity. We will never know if it was Ellen that desired to keep peace or if it was God. But there is something to learn from the fact that an issue was not made out of differing beliefs on the Trinity. While James White did not believe in it, no one who believed in the Trinity was denied membership because of it. The lesson seems obvious; God does not want the doctrine of the Trinity to divide the Seventh-day Adventist church. The rabble rousers today are using it to do exactly that. It is also important to understand how language works and how words change meanings over a period of time. The Catholic understanding of the “Trinity” during the founding period of the Adventist church was much different than how the Trinity is understood today. The Catholic church did not teach that the Trinity was three separate persons back then like what is commonly taught and believed today. The rabble rousers like to taunt mainstream Adventists spouting off that the word Trinity never appears in the Bible. Such a comment means nothing to those that understand how language changes over a period of time. The word rapture never appears in the Bible either but all Christians believe that the saved will be raptured when Jesus comes although there is disagreement if it will be in secret or a grand and spectacular event. The word Bible never appears in the Bible but all Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God. Ellen White described the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Godhead in 1898 when she wrote the Desire of Ages. “Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer.”[ii] Instead of admitting they are wrong, the rabble rousers actually try to cast doubt on this passage from the Desire of Ages. They question if it was actually written by Ellen White or try to cast doubt on its clear meaning. Fortunately, the White Estate has all the supportive documents to prove it was written by her and its meaning is as simple and clear as it sounds. In 1893 Ellen White wrote, “The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality.”[iii] In a document Ellen White wrote in 1900 she said, “The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”[iv] In the same year, she also wrote, “The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into a covenant relation with God.”[v] She also specifies, “Three distinct agencies, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, work together for human beings.”[vi] In a letter Ellen White wrote in November of 1905 she said, “There are three living persons in the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit – those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.”[vii] Later, in 1906, Ellen White clearly stated, “The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God.”[viii] In a sermon she preached that same year, she said, “You are born of God, and you stand under the sanction of the power of the three holiest Beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling.”[ix] Trinity in the Bible There are only a few of places in the Bible that mention all three persons of the Trinity together. What most often occurs is two of the persons being discussed in relation to Each other. The Great Commission is perhaps the most well-known verse with all three persons of the Trinity mentioned. “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”[x] In this passage each Person of the Godhead is given the same standing. Peter makes reference to the three Persons of the Godhead in a similar way. “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with His blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”[xi] Notice how the “work of the Spirit” is written in context of a separate Deity. One of the issues that causes the controversy of the Trinity is a passage found in 1 John 5:7, 8. A portion of these verses were added into the epistle in 1522 by Erasmus under pressure from the church and his manuscript was used by the KJV translators. So this passage is something found in English versions of the Bible but absent in many Bibles translated into other languages. It shouldn’t be an issue because the doctrine of the Trinity existed before the passage was added in 1522. However the rabble rousers will use the story to cast doubt on the Trinity among the gullible that do not know the history of how the passage found its way into the epistle. Some Bible scholars believe the church was right to add it in 1522 because there is some evidence to believe it was part of the original epistle which was eliminated during the Arian Controversy of the 4th Century. Regardless if the passage should or should not be included in the epistle, it should not cause any doubt about the Trinity doctrine because it is not the basis of belief forming the doctrine. The KJV reads like this, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” A correct translation of the passage would read, “For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” The incorrect passage teaches the doctrine of the Trinity in such a way that if it were genuine, there would be no disagreement. Verse six reads, “This is He that came by water and blood. And the Spirit the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.” Water refers to baptism and blood refers to the human body of Christ. The Spirit here is clearly spoken of as a separate Person from Christ. Jesus said, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”[xii] The Holy Spirit is clearly spoken of as a separate Person in the Godhead. Jesus said the Father would send “the Holy Spirit” In some passages of the Bible, the Holy Spirit is referred to as God’s Spirit and could be confused as somehow being the omnipresence of the Father. That is not the case here. This verse indicates that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all different Persons of the Godhead. In signing off to the Corinthians, Paul wrote, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”[xiii] This personification of the Trinity equals that of the Great Commission given by Christ. It clearly distinguishes each Member of the Godhead as a separate Person. Peter also personifies each Member of the Trinity. “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied”[xiv] Other verses in the Bible show how the different Members of the Godhead are One. Jesus said, “I and My Father are one.”[xv] John eloquently introduced Jesus as God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”[xvi] Paul wrote, “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him.”[xvii] Jesus said, “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me”[xviii] Paul wrote, “For through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.”[xix] “In Whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit”[xx] “How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”[xxi] The Bible doesn’t go into detail enough to answer all of our questions about the Trinity. The same is true about Creation and the Flood. We have many questions about things that the Bible just doesn’t give us enough information on. The Bible tells us what we need to know – not always what we want to know. For me, this means that if it wasn’t important enough for God to inspire men or women to write about it, then it isn’t important enough for us to worry about. That is probably why the Adventist founders never denied membership because of it. Terminal Uniqueness In the addict and alcoholic recovery circles there is a term known as terminal uniqueness. Addicts are not the only ones that struggle with terminal uniqueness. There are some people that just want to be different. They have a hard time playing with others. They are egocentric. They think they know more than others. They think they discovered a secret. They figured out a mystery. They know something the rest of us don’t. We see people like this come into recovery circles all the time. They die drunk or addicted. They don’t need to work the 12 Steps because they figured out a better way. Sadly, many of them have a warped idea of religion and think that because they believe in Jesus, Allah or whoever their God is, they don’t need to work the 12 Steps. Of course, that is like a diabetic saying that since Jesus can heal him, he doesn’t need to take his medication. No doubt, Jesus can heal but doesn’t normally work that way. Some of these folks go on the marijuana maintenance program and thus never take inventory of themselves, never make amends and never become better people. Most of them end up drinking again and dying drunk. That is why we so often call this condition terminal uniqueness. The folks in religious circles don’t normally die drunk in because many of them don’t drink. They are self-righteous. They are like the playground bully that makes himself feel good by insulting others. They “know” something. This “something” could be the health benefits of being vegan. It could be the dangers of eating mushrooms. It could be something about the human nature of Christ. It could be the Trinity issue. It could be a prophecy they claim is misunderstood. It could be the pagan origins of Easter or some other holiday. It may be the proper pronunciation of God’s name or the belief that we should never even say the name of God at all. Whatever it is, they know it and if you don’t learn it and jump on their bandwagon, then you are wrong. These types of people have a very difficult time joining a religious body because they don’t want to be just “one of the members.” They need to be important. The irony is that on their own, they accomplish very little and often nothing. They win few or no souls for Christ. If they were to join an organized religion, their efforts would be combined with that of many others and as a result they could make a powerful impact on the work of God. But that is too humbling. Who wants to be just a finger, eyelash or knee in the body of Christ? Disputable Matters In Romans chapter 14 the Apostle Paul writes a master essay on how to live and let live. The issues he deals with in that chapter were hot-button issues of his day. The church still deals with some of them today but there are also some new ones that are not listed there. “Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.”[xxii] I am not of the opinion that it is wrong to doubt the Trinity, eat as a vegan, pronounce God’s name in a specific manner, or abstain from celebrating certain holidays. However I do believe it is wrong to allow such opinions to create a controversy within the church. The message of Romans 14 can be summarized as “different strokes for different folks.” There are some matters that are not disputable such as Paul told the Corinthians. “Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”[xxiii] Adventists would also say that the Ten Commandments are not a disputable matter. “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot nor one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”[xxiv] However there is a long list of opinions and beliefs that fall into the category of disputable matters. Gossip In the Church Gossip, in recovery circles is called character assassination by another name. The rabble rousers love to feed the gossip mill. The Bible says “Without wood the fire goes out, so without gossip the quarrel calms down”[xxv] Rabble rousers want to keep things stirred up. So they not only make an issue out of disputable doctrines, they start targeting those that disagree with them. They have gone as far as to accuse well-known and established Adventist pastors as being Jesuits infiltrating the church. Well let me share something. Satan doesn’t need to use Jesuits to infiltrate the church when he has the self-righteous, rabble rousers. The Bible speaks very strongly against gossip. “He that uttereth a slander, is a fool.”[xxvi] As Christians we are to lift others up. The Hebrew word translated slander here means an evil report or defaming. It is not wise to go around talking bad about people. “A froward man soweth strife; and a whisperer seperateth chief friends”[xxvii] The whisperer is none other than a gossip. They talk behind the backs of others. How many of the rabble rousers that criticize those in church leadership positions have actually taken the time to contact the leaders and speak to them directly? Few do and those that do most often do not do so with a humble attitude and a spirit of reconciliation. “The words of a gossip are wounds that go down into the innermost part of the belly”[xxviii] Words hurt and can do a lot of damage. “He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth lips.”[xxix] Here we find advise to stay away from the gossips and rabble rousers, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.”[xxx] I love this verse because of the contrast. The corrupt communication is referring to gossip. It hurts. The pain goes down into the innermost part of the belly. However when we say good things, those are edifying. We are to say nice, positive things that lift people up and minister grace. “Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.”[xxxi] Wow! Those that love gossip will eat the fruit thereof. Those that love edifying, graceful words will eat the fruit thereof. Doctrines of the Devil Speaking about Lucifer, Ezekiel wrote, “By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence and thou hast sinned.”[xxxii] The same Hebrew word translated as merchandise here is translated as traffic later in the chapter – also referring to Lucifer’s sin. So what was this merchandise that Lucifer was trafficking? The Apostle John gives us the answer in Revelation. “the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”[xxxiii] Lucifer was selling a story. In 1893 Ellen White wrote, “Let all be careful not to make an outcry against the only people who are fulfilling the description given of the remnant people, who keep the commandments of God and have faith in Jesus. . . . God has a distinct people, a church on earth, second to none, but superior to all in their facilities to teach the truth, to vindicate the law of God. . . . My brother, if you are teaching that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, you are wrong”[xxxiv] The Adventist church today is still the only organized church lifting up the Commandments of God and the cross of Jesus Christ. In 1902 she wrote, “Seventh-day Adventists have been chosen by God as a peculiar people, separate from the world. By the great cleaver of truth He has cut them out from the quarry of the world and brought them into connection with Himself. He has made them His representatives and has called them to be ambassadors for Him in the last work of salvation. The greatest wealth of truth ever entrusted to mortals, the most solemn and fearful warnings ever sent by God to man, have been committed to them to be given to the world.”[xxxv] In support of the organized church, Ellen White wrote to the General Conference session in 1909. This was read to the delegates. “Oh, how Satan would rejoice if he could succeed in his efforts to get in among this people and disorganise the work at a time when thorough organisation is essential and will be the greatest power to keep out spurious uprisings and to refute claims not endorsed by the Word of God! We want to hold the lines evenly, that there shall be no breaking down of the system of organisation and order that has been built up by wise, careful labour. License must not be given to disorderly elements that desire to control the work at this time… Some have advanced the thought that, as we near the close of time, every child of God will act independently of any religious organisation. But I have been instructed by the Lord that in this work there is no such thing as every man's being independent.”[xxxvi] Notice how she stated that license must not be given to disorderly elements. Those are the rabble rousers. Those are people telling us not to pay our tithe to the organized church and not to attend church services affiliated with the organized church. With respect to the organized Seventh-day Adventist church, Ellen White wrote, “God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising, for in so doing he despises the voice of God”[xxxvii] She also wrote, “God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected.”[xxxviii] God speaks through His church in the same way that the Traditions of 12-Step organizations suggest that He speaks to them – through a group conscience. Like 12-Step organizations, the Adventist church is a “we” organization and not a “me” organization. God speaks through the General Conference through “His united people in church capacity.” The rabble rousers don’t like that because when the united people in the church make a decision they don’t like, they want to pick up their toys and go play someplace else. They don’t play well with others. They are selfish, self-centered and egotistical. They are not able to submit to a “we” organization because they want it to be a “me” organization. Ellen White warned not to team up with the rabble rousers. “The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light that is opposed to such a message. . . . I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganised or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be”[xxxix] “I tell you, my brethren, the Lord has an organised body through whom He will work. . . . When anyone is drawing apart from the organised body of God's commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgement against them, then you may know that God is not leading him. He is on the wrong track.”[xl] Here Ellen White states the church will endure until the end of the world even though there are evils within it. That means that just because the organized church may do something wrong, it will still remain God’s church until the end of the world. “Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. . . . Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralised by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counselled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard.”[xli] Satan is the accuser of the brethren (Rev. 12:10). Satan sets brother against brother. He accuses saints that are doing good work of having bad motives. Satan promotes gossip and discord. He is at war with the remnant church (Rev. 12:17). Satan also makes a mountain out of a mole hill. When the church does do something wrong, Satan will be sure to exaggerate it in the minds of the church’s critics. The Seventh-day Adventist church is the only organized Christian denomination that is lifting up the Ten Commandments as God’s law of love and the cross of Christ as the sinner’s ticket to heaven. There is no other religious organization in the world that Satan despises more than the Seventh-day Adventist church. The Seventh-day Adventist church is the turtle on a post. When we see a turtle on a post, we know it didn’t get their on its own. Someone put it there. So it is with the Seventh-day Adventist church. Only the Catholic church has more schools and hospitals than the Adventist church does. Hope Channel and 3ABN are on cable networks all over the world. They are on DISH Network and DirecTV. We have satellites sending the gospel message into Muslim countries and more Muslims convert to Adventism than any other religion. Within the US, the Seventh-day Adventist church is the fastest growing denomination. The Mormons are in a distant second place. The chaplain of the US Senate is an Adventist as is Dr. Ben Carson, Secretary of House and Urban Development. Who would have thought 150 years ago that the small group of 300, rising out of the Great Disappointment, would grow to almost 20 million? Today we have members in the US Senate, House of Representatives and the White House. This year, one of our members was memorialized in an Oscar-winning film for his faith which led him to be awarded the Medal of Honor. It is little wonder that Satan targets the Seventh-day Adventist church. He knows it is the only organization with the truth. Contrast the difference between a cruise liner church and an aircraft carrier church. The cruise liner church holds a service and discusses Bible doctrine. They have their potluck and visit with each other. They feel good about themselves. The aircraft carrier church is reaching out to the world. Such is the Adventist church. Just consider all the outreach ministries of the Adventist church. 1. Prison Ministries 2. Women’s Ministries 3. Men’s Ministries 4. Singles Ministries 5. Family Ministries 6. Music Ministries 7. Vacation Bible School 8. Adventurers 9. Pathfinders 10. Community Services (Dorcus) 11. ADRA 12. Healthful Living Classes 13. Health Screening Fairs 14. Adventist World Radio 15. Maranatha Volunteers International 16. Amazing Facts 17. It Is Written 18. Voice of Prophecy 19. Faith For Today 20. Adventist Education 21. Adventist hospitals 22. Adventist nursing homes 23. Signs of the Times 24. Pacific Press Publishing 25. Adventist Youth Service 26. Stop Smoking Programs 27. Gladventist (ministry for gays) 28. Christian Record Services (ministry for the blind) 29. Marriage Encounters (enrichment seminars) 30. Hope Channel 31. 3ABN 32. SafeTV 33. Adventist Recovery Ministries The Adventist church is an army with battalions in every part of the globe carrying the gospel to every nation and tribal region. It is little wonder that Satan realizes the threat the church poses to him and rallies as many as he can to attack the church, point out its defects and exaggerate its errors. Misery loves company. Satan is miserable and desires to take as many people down with him as he can. I will not stand with him. I will stand with God’s remnant people. I will not join the rabble rousers who accuse the organized church of this and that. Instead of pointing out errors, I will join in the work of carrying the message to a dying world. Who is on the Lord’s side? Answer now His call. Adventists are small in number but make a big impact. There is one Adventist for every 391 people in the world. One in every five people are Muslim. One in every six people in the world are Catholic. One in every seven are Hindu One in every 15 are Buddhist. Satan would like to see the Adventist movement even smaller than it is. Former Adventists are his weapon of choice in attacking the church and hindering its work. I will not join the rebellion against God’s remnant church. On Sabbath morning, I will be found worshipping with God’s organized Seventh-day Adventist church. It takes humility to be a small part of something big but the irony is that is how we can make the greatest difference in the lives of others. That is how God chooses to use us. The church is a body and each member is simple a small part of the body. It takes real humility to remain part of the body and stay focused on the mission in front of us when we see erroring decisions made by leadership in the body. Our ego wants to rise up and demonstrate but, with few exceptions, that would not make us more useful to God. It would not bring more people to Christ. I would not feed the orphans, heal the sick, encourage the prisoners or teach the children. It would only do harm to the gospel and God’s work. Church Manual, page 180 [ii] Desire of Ages, Page 671 [iii] Manuscript 93, 1893 [iv] Manuscript 57, 1900 – SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, page 1074 [v] Manuscript 27a, 1900 – SDA Bible Commentary, vol 6, page 1075 [vi] Manuscript 27a, 1900, page 7 [vii] Manuscript 21, 1906, page 4 [viii] Manuscript 20, 1906, page 9 [ix] Sermons and Talks, vol 1, page 367 [x] Matthew 28:19 (emphasis added) [xi] 1 Peter 1:1,2 (emphasis added) [xii] John 14:26 [xiii] 2 Corinthians 13:14 [xiv] 1 Peter 1:2 [xv] John 10:30 [xvi] John 1:1 [xvii] 1 Corinthians 8:6 [xviii] John 15:26 [xix] Ephesians 2:18 [xx] Ephesians 2:22 [xxi] Hebrews 9:14 [xxii] Romans 14:1 [xxiii] 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 [xxiv] Matthew 5:18 [xxv] Proverbs 26:20 [xxvi] Proverbs 10:18 [xxvii] Proverbs 16:28 [xxviii] Proverbs 18:8 [xxix] Proverbs 20:19 [xxx] Ephesians 4:29 [xxxi] Proverbs 18:21 [xxxii] Ezekiel 28:16 [xxxiii] Revelation 12:10 [xxxiv] Testimony to Ministers, pages 50, 58, 59 [xxxv] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 7, page 138 [xxxvi] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 9, pages 257, 258 (emphasis added) [xxxvii] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 3, page 417 [xxxviii] Testimonies to the Church, Vol 3, page 451 [xxxix] 2 Selected Messages, pages 63, 68, 69 [xl] 3 Selected Messages, pages 17, 18 (emphasis added) [xli] Testimonies to Ministers, pages 45, 49 (emphasis added)

This whole issue just makes me sad. John the Baptist and Jesus had the right attitude.

My grandmother made tomato jelly, which proves that tomato are a fruit. Whoever heard of potato jelly? Hmm however, carrot or red beet jelly might be interesting. dAb

Knowledge is knowing that tomatoes are fruits. Wisdom is not mixing them in with a fruit salad.

In my estimation at this point in time, is the fact that since 1980s they didn't have a problem? What does that mean or say?? Now they have a problem???

Yes, there are lots of issues. With a few exceptions, the SdA church has managed to be rather flexible on theology, soteriology, hymnology and most other "-ologies", mostly because these things are handled at the local congregation level or are matters of private belief over which no church body has any authority. We have the world-wide 28 fundamentals, but the decision to accept a member is local. If my Sabbath school classes veer off official SdA teaching, it's a matter for the local church to remove me as a teacher. Music, liturgy and forms of worship are "issues", but they are also handled locally. But when it comes to ecclesiology, by the nature of the questions, they are handled at higher levels - conference, union or GC. This is what makes it a church "issue". The church can vote Young Earth Creationism as part of the 28 at the GC, and I as a member am free to ignore the vote. The church teaches that the OT tithe carries over from the Levites to the SdA professional clergy; I am free to reject that teaching. The church can teach pope=antichrist and the US federal Sunday law and I can reject that teaching. If the church teaches a male-only clergy, I can reject the teaching, but I, as a private member, cannot go out and hire a woman pastor or appoint her conference president. Unlike issues of private belief, ordination is corporate action which makes it a public issue. And unlike music or liturgy, which is a local congregational matter, ordination is a union matter, which turns it into a matter of debate for unions and the GC.

Pretty sure a lot of people are projecting their own motivations onto Stan, and that, knowing him as well as I do, those things are not what he was saying. Arguments are futile when people don't care to learn.