Acceptable reasons for sinning..

[David Koot]

Of course, and I agree with you, and I think David would agree, too, wouldn't you, David?

Sins of ignorance were not something I had spoken to in my earlier post. I referred to such things as getting irritated, annoyed, impatient, etc. Those are not sins of ignorance. In the typical system, sins of ignorance were covered by the daily. However, once a person became aware that he had sinned, then he had to bring a sacrifice.

Dave

[David Koot]

Personally, I think everyone is missing the point, including the questioner. The point is not whether we need to sin or if there is an excuse for sin. The point is that we ARE sinners, sinful to the core. Almost every thought and action we do is sinful, and we will keep being sinful until Jesus comes to glorify us. In the meantime, if we let Him, God will work in us to smooth our rough edges and help us think and act more like Him. But we will never be anything less than sinners (covered by the Blood) until Jesus comes to glorify us. The idea of needing to sin or excusing sin is pointless, imo.

We will have 'sinful flesh,' sinful tendencies to war against, until the day Jesus returns. However, that does mean that those who are ready to meet Jesus will continue to give in to those sinful tendencies. They will not. By God's grace, and with His help, they will be found victorious in every area of temptation.

Dave

[Woody]

Dave .... I will have to give a respectful "shudder" when I hear you say things like that.

But, hey ... you are still my brother. And we can sure agree to disagree. I know how much you love the Lord and in my mind ... that counts for more than anything that works could possibly do.

In my mind ... He can keep you as His own with your belief or with mine. Knowledge is not going to save me. I will continue to learn about the mysteries of God even in Heaven.

As far as what has been said so far ... I agree very much with what Carolaa said in her post.

And ....

If I were to take you literally Dave ... instead of what you mean ... I would agree with the following quote of yours .....

Quote:

However, that DOES mean that those who are ready to meet Jesus will continue to give in to those sinful tendencies.

Blessings to you Friend in Christ .....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

Personally, I think everyone is missing the point, including the questioner. The point is not whether we need to sin or if there is an excuse for sin. The point is that we ARE sinners, sinful to the core. Almost every thought and action we do is sinful, and we will keep being sinful until Jesus comes to glorify us. In the meantime, if we let Him, God will work in us to smooth our rough edges and help us think and act more like Him. But we will never be anything less than sinners (covered by the Blood) until Jesus comes to glorify us. The idea of needing to sin or excusing sin is pointless, imo.

We will have 'sinful flesh,' sinful tendencies to war against, until the day Jesus returns. However, that does mean that those who are ready to meet Jesus will continue to give in to those sinful tendencies. They will not. By God's grace, and with His help, they will be found victorious in every area of temptation.

Dave

Agree with you here.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Of course, and I agree with you, and I think David would agree, too, wouldn't you, David?

Sins of ignorance were not something I had spoken to in my earlier post. I referred to such things as getting irritated, annoyed, impatient, etc. Those are not sins of ignorance. In the typical system, sins of ignorance were covered by the daily. However, once a person became aware that he had sinned, then he had to bring a sacrifice.

Dave

I wouldn't say those are sins of ignorance either. I'm talking about sins of which people are unaware. For instance, some are unaware that it's a sin to smoke. etc etc. But as soon as we become aware or convicted that it's sin, we are obviously to confess it and forsake it, asking God for power to overcome it. And He will give it.

"The fruit of the [Holy] Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering [patience], kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control... " (Gal. 5: 22-23).

These are in opposition to the works of the flesh: "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness... hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like... Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5: 19-21).

"Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us" (1 John 4: 11, 12).

Regards.

"John 3:17"

[Woody]

Quote:

These are in opposition to the works of the flesh: "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness... hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like... Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God"

I have always wondered what the un-pardonable sins were. Would these qualify?

[ChildofChrist]

Sin will put up a barrier between you and the Father.

I believe most people that do sin, do it because it feels good. Talk about being shallow. They feel no guilt or they don't realize nor care of the out come. They live in the moment for there is no future for them.

[John317]

...So, I hope that each of us do allow ourselves to sin. Jesus does. He died that we might sin and yet still have eternal life.

Jesus Christ died in order that we might no longer be slaves to sin and Satan and instead that we might become slaves to God and to righteousness.

"Christ Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, THAT [iN ORDER THAT, SO THAT] WE, HAVING DIED TO SINS, MIGHT LIVE FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested: that He might destroy the works of the devil."

He died to save us FROM OUR SINS, not in our sins. Matt. 1: 21.

He loves us too much to leave us in our sins. He forgives us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness and then empowers us by His indwelling Spirit. He came not in order that we have may have our sins and heaven too, but to destroy sin and the works of the devil.

"And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not [practice] sin..." 1 John 3: 5,6. (Compare with Romans 1: 1-4.)

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

These are in opposition to the works of the flesh: "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness... hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like... Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God"

I have always wondered what the un-pardonable sins were. Would these qualify?

Galatians is referring to people who refuse to stop practicing those sins. They neither confess nor forsake them.

Jesus loves to forgive us of all our sins, but he won't force our will. Only we can give Him our will as well as our sins so He can cleanse us in His heavenly laundry.

Regards,

"John 3: 17" and so to bed. Happy, blessed Sabbath.

[LifeHiscost]

The point is that we ARE sinners, sinful to the core. Almost every thought and action we do is sinful,

[LifeHiscost]

By God's grace, and with His help, they will be found victorious in every area of temptation.

Dave

Without further study this might refer to those who go through the final time of trouble and are translated, and would not refer to all Christians, as reflected in these words below.

OTOH one would have to come to the conclusion this text below, no longer applies to ourselves personally, if it is believed some would be without sin before Jesus returns to claim His own, that is unless it is believed the saints are translated before Jesus returns.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 KJV

Can we depend on this promise below for every shortfall, that we might be able to enter in to that home for which we have struggled to enter for so many years?

"Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Cor 15:51,52

NASB

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Knowledge is not going to save me.

Praise God for that.

" if there is knowledge, it will be done away." 1 Cor 13:8 NASB

I don't think it is knowledge of the truth that will be done away.

"but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." 1 Cor 13:10 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

"No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him." 1 John 3:6 NASB

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:6 NIV

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. " 1 John 3:6 AMP brackets parenthesis theirs LHC

"The person who lives by the help of Christ does not keep on sinning. The person who keeps on sinning has not seen Him or has not known Him. " 1 John 3:6 NLV

Perhaps the conscience of some might be eased if we had the attitude of how far from sin we might be able to reach, as opposed to how much I can get away with and still be saved in the kingdom.

OTOH____

"For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him." John 3:17 AMP

Regards!

[John317]

[LifeHiscost]

If I am absent from school ... I go to my parents and get an excuse. The excuse is presented to the teacher.

Parents = Jesus

Teacher = The Father in Heaven

End result .... I am excused for the offense.

I would like to suggest, Redwood, that you are excused from the penalty of the sin. Jesus paid the full price for the sin. If the sin could have been excused, Jesus would not have had to die.

And the same can be said for every sin that was ever committed.

"When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Acts 11:18 NASB

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned."

Steps To Christ p. 62

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection."

Desire of Ages p. 357

"If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]." 1 John 1:9 AMP

parenthesis brackets theirs underlined mine LHC

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Well, the distinction is bogus. Sin is sin. Jesus came to set us free from bondage to every kind of sin, including sins of annoyance, impatience and so forth--and over every hereditary and cultivated tendency toward evil. Jesus is able. He will rescue us from the power of sin. Dave

I agree with this part, Dave. It is just the timing I disagree with. Some believe we will be without sin before translation. That denies this text.

"if we may say -- `we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us; "

1 John 1:8 YLT

And denies that we need this.

"Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Cor 15:50-54

NASB

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Personally, I think everyone is missing the point, including the questioner. The point is not whether we need to sin or if there is an excuse for sin. The point is that we ARE sinners, sinful to the core. Almost every thought and action we do is sinful, and we will keep being sinful until Jesus comes to glorify us. In the meantime, if we let Him, God will work in us to smooth our rough edges and help us think and act more like Him. But we will never be anything less than sinners (covered by the Blood) until Jesus comes to glorify us. The idea of needing to sin or excusing sin is pointless, imo.

Yes, we ARE sinners. But the whole point of Jesus' coming to save us is that we do not have/need to continue sinning.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

These are in opposition to the works of the flesh: "adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness... hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like... Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God"

I have always wondered what the un-pardonable sins were. Would these qualify?

"Those who practice..." That's present tense. It's an ongoing lifestyle. It is NOT the sin per se that is unpardonable. It is the fact that the person doing it refuses to repent of it and give it up. So the idea that one can keep on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes will be found to have committed the unpardonable sin.

Gerry

[David Koot]

I agree with this part, Dave. It is just the timing I disagree with. Some believe we will be without sin before translation. That denies this text.

"if we may say -- `we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us; "

1 John 1:8 YLT

[Woody]

I think that in this case ... Ellen White was right when she said ...

Quote:

"Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned."

Steps To Christ p. 62

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection."

Desire of Ages p. 357

"We are not to be to be anxious about what Christ and God think of US, but what GOD thinks of Christ our substitute"

2SM 33

So, you are right. Our characters will remain the same. Those who go to heaven will have sinful and faulty characters. Praise God that the Father "beholds NOT" those sinful characters of ours. WHY? Because His plan is to change those characters. It is called glorification. When we SEE HIM ... we will be changed. YES. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye. It is about seeing His face at the Second Coming.

That will be a glorious life changing and character changing event !! Praise God.

"Beloved, NOW are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall SEE him as he is." 1 John 3:2

"Restoration to the divine image, victory over every sin will be completed AT the Second advent." 7 BC 649

(Just my humble opinion of scripture and EGW)

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes, we ARE sinners. But the whole point of Jesus' coming to save us is that we do not have/need to continue sinning.

This is an interesting perspective. I would not wish to have you stop doing all the good works that you are able to do. But, I have a different view on what the "whole point" of Jesus coming was. Let me try it out ....

I feel that Jesus came to Redeem us . We are sinners and that can not be changed. Because we sin and have sinned ... we are cursed. Jesus came to remove that curse for those who accept Him.

Yes, It is a byproduct that once we are saved by the blood of Jesus .... we will naturally be motivated to be holy. And we will receive power to serve Him because of the love and gratitude for the Salvation that His blood provided.

But, to say that the "whole point" of His coming was so that we could do good works .... seems to miss the Redeeming Nature of Christ and his work for us. His coming and saving us is still not enough for anyone to live a perfect life. We will not be perfect. If someone says they are without sin ... the truth is not in them. So, in this sense Jesus would have failed. But, NO .... it is at the Second Coming when we SEE his face that we are changed and the restoration is complete.

We each have a different slant and interpretation of Jesus and His purpose on this earth. I would not wish to change your particular view. God will save you no matter what your understanding of scripture is. That is what is COOL about God. We will all be given full understanding of God when we get to Heaven. But, not before. We have much re-programming that will need to be done.

[Woody]

Quote:

So the idea that one can keep on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes will be found to have committed the unpardonable sin.

Gerry .... I haven't heard of this definition of the unpardonable sin before. If I continue to sin with the same sin more than once ... I have committed the unpardonable sin? I thought that Jesus would never leave us nor forsake us.

Do you have any further cites that you could give us to support this theory? Under your theory ... I am lost. I have some current sins that I have committed more than once and continue to do more than once. One is that I love sugar. I guess I have not surrendered this. And it is ongoing. Even though I know that our body is the Temple of the Lord.... I have continued this practice. I do hope that before the Lord returns that I will have the victory in time. But so far I am just lost.

For me I have the assurance that even though I keep going on sinning ... even though I don't want to... that I am saved by the Blood from the "curse" for that ongoing sinning. All I have to do is accept his blood and gift of salvation. There will be some who sin and refuse to accept the gift. They will be lost. But all those how want the gift ... it is their's.

So, I do have the assurance of forgiveness from my current and the future ongoing practice of sinful things. Jesus and his blood gives me that assurance. I am sorry that you don't appear to have that assurance. It is the Blessed Hope.

[olger]

I believe the answers we seek can be found in Romans (among other places).

Romans 1:5 - immediately estabishes the calling to obedience in the Believer's life. Obedience.

Romans 2:8 - Obedience is still real important. Verse 1:5 sets the tone of obedience in Romans. This verse reveals the ultimate end of disobedience and introduces a unique term - unrighteous obedience.

Romans 2:10 - I am amazed how Romans keeps sounding the call of obedience in these first three chapters.

Romans 2:27 - Obedience will judge disobedience.

Romans 3:5 - Does the carnal nature of man excuse him? I like this passage because it speaks directly to the notion that since we are all sinners and can't help it then God will save us anyway in spite of disobedience. Not hardly.

3:6 - God will judge the world by their works (2:6). This has already been established in the previous chapter.

3:7 - Here is the crux of accountability.

3:8 - This is the natural logic of the idea that we are all sinners and God will save us anyway.

3:9 - We ARE all sinners, meaning that we have all been born with a selfish nature. We haven't been glorified yet, thus we are under sin (have a fleshly nature). God doesn't leave us there - but gives us a new nature.

3:20 - right. The law condemns our carnal nature.

3:24 - Here is the forgiveness that we seek.

Romans 4:5 - This is talking about justifiction here Paul is not against works, just putting them in their proper perspective. They (works) cannot cause us to be justified. Paul is dealing a blow to the Jews who long thought to earn their salvation by works.

4:6 - "Without works" is a reference to God's justifying forgiveness apart from human effort.

4:9 - Aha. since we are justified by faith, then this is how God calls every man, Jew or Gentile makes no difference. This explanation was really needed to make Jews understand how Gentiles could be saved.

4:11 - As Paul is hitting this topic hard, James comes along later and provides a necessary counterbalance. No doubt, the leaders appreciated Paul's ministry but acknowledged among themselves that some of what he wrote could be confusing to believers (2 Peter 3:15; James 2:14).

It is the faith of Abraham that makes him the father of the faithful. When an uncircumcised Gentile places his trust in God, he becomes a child of Abraham - just as Abraham placed his faith in God before he was circumcised. Abraham wasn't circumcised until he was 90 (Gen 17:4). By then he had:

* Moved to Canaan

* Rescued Lot

* Been blessed by Melchizedek

* Had a son (Ishmael)

* Offered the sacrifice of the smoking furnace

Romans 5:8 - God did this without any effort on our part.

5:12 - Adam was the federal head of the human race.

Romans 6:1 - Shall we invite more grace through more sin? God forbid. Christ has set us free from the dominion of sin. Walking in freedom brings glory to God, walking in defeat brings glory to the enemy.

Romans 6:14 - The power of the gospel is that it offers men freedom from the law of sin. Paul directly says "sin shall not have dominion over you." He couldn't really say this if the Law of God was cast aside--for sin would no longer be sin. I've known quite a few who trash the Law of God verbally in the name of grace. Grace leads to obedience (verse 16).

Again, the question is not whether I will be a servant. The question is whose servant will I be? Sin........or obedience. The truth is the grace of Jesus gives me the power say no to sin.

These are a few Bible notes that I have compiled over the last 20 years (my own commentary derived from prayer & study). If yours is better, then just use that.

olger

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I agree with this part, Dave. It is just the timing I disagree with. Some believe we will be without sin before translation. That denies this text.

"if we may say -- `we have not sin,' ourselves we lead astray, and the truth is not in us; "

1 John 1:8 YLT

Hello, Life. v. 8 is part of a discourse. It continues in v. 9--forgive and cleanse.

I think I follow your reasoning, Dave, and I'm sure at one time I've seen the same conclusion arrived at in the Spirit of Prophecy. While I'm not prepared to say where this conclusion differs from Scripture, I myself choose to believe these words from the Holy Bible. If they are not true it seems one would have to determine a time before translation in which the Word of God is not true. I'm not prepared to do that.

You'll notice 1 John 1:8 is unequivocal about the presence of sin in the life of all, not only unbelievers, and not just admitting one has sinned in the past. That would leave all with a definate necessity to be covered by the presence and righteousness of Jesus Christ, having no righteousness of our own.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. " 1 John 1:8 NASB

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 ASV

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 NKJV

This, of course, does not mean the (character) unrighteousness of a person would be changed into (character) righteousness, but it is my belief the Holy Spirit is capable of separating the old lingering traits of unholiness from the believer, and leaving only the righteous creation left to survive to enter into the realms of glory.

As to the need for a Mediator:

...for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews 13:5 KJV

"The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed." Deuteronomy 31:8 NASB

"For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the [a]breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart. "

Hebrews 4:12 AMP

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12 NKJV

Blessings!