Acceptable reasons for sinning..

[David Koot]

If they are not true it seems one would have to determine a time before translation in which the Word of God is not true.

Not at all. The same Bible--and in fact the same Bible writer--tells of the purifying power of the Spirit in a believer's life, and points to the time when God's people will stand before Him without yielding in any area to temptation.

I would comment about the verse you have mentioned, 1 Jn. 1:8, as well as v. 10. V. 8 says, have no (not--ouk) sin. V. 10 says, 'has not sinned.'

One cannot extrapolate from these verses, the culmination of the plan of salvation. It is often unwise to attempt to hang a key doctrine on one or a few Bible verses. The words themselves here do not indicate a futuristic application. Nor do they address, here, 'continuing to sin.' John DOES speak about those who continue to sin, elsewhere in the epistle. Take a look, for example, at chs. 2 and 3. In light of the rest of the epistle, what, then, is John addressing? Heresies. He warns against them. One of those heresies dealt with God's law, the standard of right and wrong. Take away the standard, or teach that it does not apply to believers, and a person might say that s/he has not sinned. 'Antinomian' is the word, as I recall.

Thus, the following:

1) The words in ch. 1:8 are not future tense or application;

2) The words are silent about the culmination of the plan of salvation;

3) Elsewhere in the epistle, the author DOES speak to the issue of sinning and continuing to sin;

4) The Bible DOES speak about the culmination of the plan of salvation;

5) John was addressing heresies which had arisen in the church (and which may show themselves.)

John317 is our resident Greek scholar. I would invite his commentary on this question, and the significance of the Greek in ch. 1:8, if he so desires.

Thus, the verse you have referred to is part of a much longer discourse which addresses heresies in the church of John's day. The epistle also makes very clear the importance of turning from sin, and the evidence in the life of the true believer, as the Holy Spirit works in the life and s/he renounces and turns away from sin.

Dave

[Gerr]

I think that in this case ... Ellen White was right when she said ...

Quote:

"Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned."

Steps To Christ p. 62

She also had this to say: [color:red]"Till heaven and earth pass," said Jesus, "one jot or one tittle shall in nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." By His own obedience to the law, Christ testified to its immutable character and proved that through His grace it could be perfectly obeyed by every son and daughter of Adam. MB 48

"Because the law of the Lord is perfect, and therefore changeless, it is impossible for sinful men, in themselves, to meet the standard of its requirement. This was why Jesus came as our Redeemer. It was His mission, by making men

partakers of the divine nature, to bring them into harmony with the principles of the law of heaven."

MB 50

What did Jesus mean by, "you MUST be born again if our characters remain the same? What did Paul mean when he said, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a NEW creation; OLD things have PASSED AWAY; behold, ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW?" 2 Cor 5:17

If sinners could/can not be changed, what did Jesus mean when He said to the paralytic and the adulterous woman, "sin no more?" Jn 5:14; 8:11.

Quote:

"Restoration to the divine image, victory over every sin will be completed AT the Second advent." 7 BC 649

Let me ask you. How can you complete something that has not even started yet?

Gerry

[olger]

Quote:

The epistle also makes very clear the importance of turning from sin, and the evidence in the life of the true believer, as the Holy Spirit works in the life and s/he renounces and turns away from sin.

Indeed, friend.

[Woody]

Indeed ... both faith and works are present in the Christians life. That is Biblical.

The question is "Where should our focus be?"

[David Koot]

Indeed ... both faith and works are present in the Christians life. That is Biblical.

The question is "Where should our focus be?"

I believe our focus should be on the Lord Jesus Christ. As Paul the apostle wrote, "That I may know Him." As we focus on Jesus, God increases our faith, and the life-changing experience of knowing Him manifests itself in good works in the believer's life.

Dave

[olger]

My focus should be on the Lord each day. Praise him.

olger

[Gerr]

Quote:

So the idea that one can keep on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes will be found to have committed the unpardonable sin.

Gerry .... I haven't heard of this definition of the unpardonable sin before.

What I meant to say was: the person who keeps on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes will be found to have committed the unpardonable sin.

Quote:

If I continue to sin with the same sin more than once ... I have committed the unpardonable sin?

I thought that Jesus would never leave us nor forsake us.

"Where sin abounds, grace much more abound." So, one can commit the same sinful act a trillion X if that were possible, and if one repents & forsakes it, of course, that one is forgiven & never forsaken!!! But if one clings to that sin, there comes a time when God finally says, "Ephraim is joined to his idols, let him alone."

Quote:

Do you have any further cites that you could give us to support this theory? Under your theory ... I am lost. I have some current sins that I have committed more than once and continue to do more than once. One is that I love sugar.

I love to eat sweets too, but do I gorge myself with it? Would I be lost for eating it? Now if you are killing yourself with it that might be a different story. I don't know what your OTHER sins are, and I don't really want to know, the question is, do you want to remain joined to them or part with them? The promise about Jesus is that He has the power to "save His people FROM their sins." Mt 1:21.

Quote:

For me I have the assurance that even though I keep going on sinning ... even though I don't want to... that I am saved by the Blood from the "curse" for that ongoing sinning. All I have to do is accept his blood and gift of salvation. There will be some who sin and refuse to accept the gift. They will be lost. But all those how want the gift ... it is their's.

Sorry, but I find no such assurance for myself in Scripture. What I do find is the assurance of a Mighty, Omnipotent Savior who can save me not only from the penalty of sin but also from the power, presence, and pleasure of sin.

Quote:

So, I do have the assurance of forgiveness from my current and the future ongoing practice of sinful things. Jesus and his blood gives me that assurance. I am sorry that you don't appear to have that assurance. It is the Blessed Hope.

The plain testimony of Scripture to me is this:[color:red]

"Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins, And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:3-6 NIV

Gerry

[Gerr]

Indeed ... both faith and works are present in the Christians life. That is Biblical.

The question is "Where should our focus be?"

The focus should be on JESUS, "the author and finisher of our faith..." Heb 12:2.

When we are focussed on Him, the works WILL follow, because, "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Jam 2:17 NKJ.

Gerry

[Woody]

I am with you on that Gerry. Praise God. We agree. Mark that on your calandar.

[Woody]

Quote:

Sorry, but I find no such assurance for myself in Scripture.

I am sorry about this Gerry. I hope the Spirit will show you this. It is a blessed Assurance that Jesus died and paid the price for all of our sins. We ARE saved unless we reject that saved status. This is the good news. It is not on our works but HIS works that HE "did and died".

We will learn what our part is slowly ... but that does not change the fact that He died and saved us. What will we do because of this saved status? ......... We will repent and go about doing good. But the good will not save us for we are already saved through the "did and dying".

Blessings on each of us as we are on that journey of discovery and of glorifying Him.

[Woody]

Quote:

What I meant to say was: the person who keeps on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes will be found to have committed the unpardonable sin.

I will admit that I will "keep on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes" or I die. This is just as you yourself. I have sins in my life right now. If Jesus would come or if I would die ... then according to you ... I have committed the unpardonable sin.

No. I don't believe this. I am on a journey with Christ. I will never arrive at a sinless condition. That will happen at His second coming. Glorification. Under your definition of the unpardonable sin .... we are all lost for we all continue to sin. OVER and OVER and OVER again.

But, Praise God ... his doing and dying covers all those sins. That is the assurance that we can know that we can sin and it is forgiven through the Blood of Christ. Through this assurance we can go and be blessed by giving Him the Glory that He deserves by gaining victory over those sins. But that does not in any way affect our Salvation one way or another.

[John317]

Quote:

What I meant to say was: the person who keeps on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes will be found to have committed the unpardonable sin.

I will admit that I will "keep on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes" or I die. This is just as you yourself. I have sins in my life right now.

If we know they are sins, why not confess them and forsake them now? God gives us the power to resist them and to overcome every sin in our lives, but we have to make the decision to surrender our will completely to Him. He will fulfill His promise to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We don't have to keep committing the same sins over and over again. "Greater is He who is within us than he that is in the world."

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

What I meant to say was: the person who keeps on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes will be found to have committed the unpardonable sin.

I will admit that I will "keep on doing/practising sinful things until Jesus comes" or I die. This is just as you yourself. I have sins in my life right now.

If we know they are sins, why not confess them and forsake them now? God gives us the power to resist them and to overcome every sin in our lives, but we have to make the decision to surrender our will completely to Him. He will fulfill His promise to forgive us and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We don't have to keep committing the same sins over and over again. "Greater is He who is within us than he that is in the world."

Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. In fact it is never accomplished until we SEE his FACE. But yes ... the power is available but we will not take advantage of it fully on this earth. None are without sin. If we were ... we would not need what He did in the doing and dying.

[carolaa]

Let me ask you. How can you complete something that has not even started yet?

Gerry

When Jesus comes, the work of sanctification begun by the Holy Spirit will end. Sanctified/holy simply means "set apart." To achieve that is the work of a lifetime, and it is the Holy Spirit's work to do, while our job is to surrender and trust. Repentance, or making that decision to turn away from willful sinning, is a big part of our job, as well, but we can only do it in Christ's strength and the Holy Spirit's power. On our own, it is impossible for us to even have that desire. That's because we have a sinful, depraved nature.

Glorification is another matter. We will remain sinful human beings, covered by the Blood in our sin-permeated natures, until we are glorified into sinless beings.

The unpardonable sin is grieving, or rejecting, the Holy Spirit. This is usually a very conscious decision. The Bible says a righteous man falls seven times and rises up again. As long as we keep coming back to God, like David did, we have not committed the unpardonable sin. He is there for us and will keep working us through that sanctification process.

[David Koot]

When Jesus comes, the work of sanctification begun by the Holy Spirit will end.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sorry, but I find no such assurance for myself in Scripture.

I am sorry about this Gerry. I hope the Spirit will show you this. It is a blessed Assurance that Jesus died and paid the price for all of our sins. We ARE saved unless we reject that saved status. This is the good news. It is not on our works but HIS works that HE "did and died".

As I already said, I find no assurance for myself that I can keep on willfully sinning and have the assurance of salvation. There is no equivocation of the Word for me. It is written:

[color:red] "He who does [present tense] what is sinful is of the the devil....The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. Non one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning because he has been born of God. This is HOW we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are." 1 Jn 3:8-10 NIV

What I find is the assurance of a Mighty, Omnipotent Savior who can save me not only from the penalty of sin, but also from the presence (ongoing life of sin), power (rule of sin in the life), and pleasure (the enjoyment) of sin.

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

If they are not true it seems one would have to determine a time before translation in which the Word of God is not true.

Not at all. The same Bible--and in fact the same Bible writer--tells of the purifying power of the Spirit in a believer's life, and points to the time when God's people will stand before Him without yielding in any area to temptation.

Then I'm assuming you also believe there will come a time before translation when this part of the Scripture is also untrue.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6 KJV

And this man's prayer would become valid at some time before translation, assuming he prayed to God as opposed to praying "with and for himself".

"The Pharisee stood and prayed...God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. " Luke 18:11 KJV

BTW, it is not an unknown that to resist evil is instructed by God. And He would not ask something He didn't expect to be accomplished. However I'm satisfied to believe His instruction to submit ourselves to Him before we attempt to resist is critical for success. I just believe the righteousness excercised by the faithful is not their own, but is the power of God unto salvation.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5 NASB

Now I'm supposing you know someone, other than Jesus, that never fails any of the temptations appropriate to the person, that we might have present testimony as to the validity for "flawless" in behavior, before translation, the necessity for translation if your reasoning is correct.

This particular Word might speak to that, though it only be one.

"Since all have sinned and are falling short... " Romans 3:23 AMP

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Indeed ... both faith and works are present in the Christians life. That is Biblical.

The question is "Where should our focus be?"

The focus should be on JESUS, "the author and finisher of our faith..." Heb 12:2.

When we are focussed on Him, the works WILL follow, because, "faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." Jam 2:17 NKJ.

Gerry

No doubt, the key being "the author and finisher of our faith..."

Regards!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Let me ask you. How can you complete something that has not even started yet?

Gerry

When Jesus comes, the work of sanctification begun by the Holy Spirit will end. Sanctified/holy simply means "set apart." To achieve that is the work of a lifetime, and it is the Holy Spirit's work to do, while our job is to surrender and trust. Repentance, or making that decision to turn away from willful sinning, is a big part of our job, as well, but we can only do it in Christ's strength and the Holy Spirit's power. On our own, it is impossible for us to even have that desire. That's because we have a sinful, depraved nature.

I totally agree with what you are saying. What I was replying to is RW view of sanctification. He believes it is the work of a lifetime, but there are no victories, no character change. The believer will continue to sin willfully until Jesus comes. In this view of sanctification, where is the new birth? Where is the repentance that is grieved enough about the sin so as to depart or turn away from it? In this view of sanctification, it never got started in the first place, hence my statement, "how can one complete something that did not even get started?

BTW, to me sanctification is being made holy, becoming more like God. I don't believe this ends at the second coming. I believe this will go on forever into eternity. I agree with what you say about glorification.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. In fact it is never accomplished until we SEE his FACE. But yes ... the power is available but we will not take advantage of it fully on this earth. None are without sin. If we were ... we would not need what He did in the doing and dying.

"Without faith it is impossible to please Him." How then can I please God if I don't trust Him enough to take Him at His word that by His grace & omnipotent power He can deliver me from me from a destructive life of sin?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

What I was replying to is RW view of sanctification. He believes it is the work of a lifetime, but there are no victories, no character change.

I always hate it when people misrepresent what I believe and say. I am sure you would not appreciate me putting words in your mouth.

Extremism. Just Extremism.

[David Koot]

Then I'm assuming you also believe there will come a time before translation when this part of the Scripture is also untrue.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6 KJV

[Gerr]

Quote:

What I was replying to is RW view of sanctification. He believes it is the work of a lifetime, but there are no victories, no character change.

I always hate it when people misrepresent what I believe and say. I am sure you would not appreciate me putting words in your mouth.

Extremism. Just Extremism.

If I have misrepresented your position, then my heartfelt apologies. But here are your statements that led me to believe what I said.

From your post #146826:

Quote:

Our characters will remain the same. Those who go to heaven will have sinfull and faulty characters."

From post #146951 you said:

Quote:

I will admit that I will "keep on practising sinful things until Jesus comes," or I die.

This are said on the face of very plain words of Scripture that says:

[color:red]"He who does [present tense] what is sinful is of the devil... No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues [present, ongoing] to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 Jn 3:8,6 NIV.

So how am I to understand your view of sanctification except to conclude that there is no born-again experience because there is no character change; no victories because the same sins are practised willfully over and over again "until Jesus comes."

Since I have been judged guilty of misrepresentation, then let us hear your clear explanation of what you understand sanctification to be.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

So how am I to understand your view of sanctification except to conclude that there is no born-again experience because there is no character change; no victories because the same sins are practised willfully over and over again "until Jesus comes."

Quite amazing that you don't get it Gerry. It is very simple. There will be both. There will be change in some areas and no change in others. There will always be room for growth. At no time have I said there will be "no character change ; no victories".

But, "sin will be practiced willfully over and over again" in some areas of our lives. This demonstrates that there will be continual growth until we die or Jesus comes. There is no stopping place. At the second coming there will be the final restoration. Then it will come to a stopping place. We will then be in a glorified state of perfection. But not until then.

To say that I will reach a point of saying that at some point on this earth that I will no longer willfully decide to sin ... totally negates the need for a Saviour. I need my Redeemer. Not only for my past willful sins ... but my future willfull sins.

I know that eating more sugar than is healthful for me is wrong. But I continue to do it and I suspect I may continue to do it till the day I die. Perhaps I will be given the victory. But that is up to God. It is He that gives us the victory. I am willing for Him to do that in my life. But so far He has not chosen to do so for me.

So ... until He does that in my life ... I will go on willfully sinning. Praise God ... He forgives. He knows I am doing my best IN His power. And if He sees fit that I need more power HE will do it. I ... in my own power can not even COME to Him. It is ALL about His power. I give all the glory to Him for what is good in my life. He has seen fit to give me numerous victories. SO, I don't need you to tell me that I believe "there is no character change; no victories" . I believe in just the opposite. I just don't carry it to extremes as you do.

You are welcome to feel that we must have victories in all areas before we die or Christ comes. But I will continue to have sin and practice sin until I die. Not that I want to ... but because I am a sinner. And it is for sinners that Christ died.

I really feel sorry for those who feel they can and must stop practicing sin. For I will tell you ... no one has done it that I know of. If you think you don't have sin .... you are sadly mistaken for it is contrary to scripture and that belief has driven many from God. It is a dead end works oriented belief.

I hope you can survive in such a belief. If you can then praise God. But like I say ... most I have known with this belief .... try and try but are never good enough. So, they just give up because of not measuring up.

I will stand on the merits of Christ ... my Saviour and Redeemer.

[Woody]

Quote:

Since I have been judged guilty of misrepresentation

You are innocent until proven guilty. If you would like to show that your statement is true ... then please show me where I have stated ...

Quote:

there is no character change; no victories

Since I have explained that this is not accurate and I have never stated the above ... then the ball is in your court to prove your words against me are true.

Go for it. I say you have falsely quoted me. And that I have never at any time stated the above. What say you? Can you find the quote or are you assaulting my beliefs by misquoting me?

My character WILL remain sinful and faulty as EGW puts it. But at the same time ... I will have victories in some areas. You appear to believe in TOTAL victory in ALL areas ... OR TOTAL SIN in all areas. Life as a Christian is not like that. We have gains here and gains there. But TOTAL victory ... NO. Not until Christ comes. I will continue to practice sin and I will continue to have victory. I will do both.

But NO victory and NO character change? I will add another NO to this equation. No one is represented by that idea of yours. Even the most sin sick person will have "some" victories and some character change in their life time. But in the end ... when we die ... we will ALL have sinful and faulty characters that will need to be transformed when we SEE His FACE.

Only those who believe in Him and Accept Him though will be allowed to go through this change. Those who reject His sacrifice and life ... His "doing and dying" ... they will be lost. But it will not be because of their lack of works ... it will be because of not accepting the "doing and dying" of Jesus.

He who sins ... is of the Devil. Gerry ... I am of the Devil and so are you. We all sin. We all continue to sin. We all practice sin over and over. We are of the Devil. That is why Jesus came to this earth. To SAVE us. TO REDEEM US from the Devil. Praise God. I will no longer be of the Devil when Jesus comes and removes me from this place and changes me at the Second Coming when I SEE HIS FACE. Praise God.

In the mean time ... yes we will have victories and thus "glimpses" of Heaven. God does give us power to overcome sin in our lives here and now. But this is just a foretaste ... they are small victories. ONLY when we see His Face will we have total victory over ALL sin. Until then we will be of the Devil and in need of a Saviour/Redeemer from those sins that we continue to practice due to not having the power that is available to us.

I pray that we all will work out our Salvation with fear and trembling. For it is only through what Christ DID that matters. What "I" do will not amount to anything. It is as filthy rags towards my salvation. I am saved ONLY in what HE did. IF we get our focus onto what WE can and will do (through Him)... then that will be our demise. The focus on works (even the works that HE does in us) is what we need to fear and tremble about. It is the focus of the Devil. Beware. I pray that we don't get sucked into it. He calls us to abide and rest in Him and what HE did. That is my prayer.