Is it ever ok to lie?

[Sulla]

Hi all I am trying to find out all I can on this subject to make up my mind. Below is everthing I have so far. If you have more reference please let me know.

1. Its wrong to like (Other side farther down.

The Standard God Requires.--God wants men in His service, under His banner, to be strictly honest, unimpeachable in character, that their tongues shall not utter a semblance of untruth. The tongue must be true, the eyes must be true, the actions wholly and entirely such as God can commend. We are living in the sight of a holy God, who solemnly declares, "I know thy works." The divine eye is ever upon us. We cannot cover one act of unjust deal from God. The witness of God to our every action is a truth which but few realize. {CG 152.2}

Those who realize their dependence upon God will feel that they must be honest with their fellow men, and, above all, they must be honest with God, from whom come all the blessings of life. The evasion of the positive commands of God concerning tithes and offerings is registered in the books of heaven as robbery toward Him. {CG 152.3}

By precept and example, parents are to teach their children never to speak falsely. When a falsehood is uttered, the heavenly angels turn away in sorrow, grieved that Christ's heritage should so dishonor him. One falsehood spoken prepares the way for another. The Lord desires all to adhere strictly to the truth, to be straightforward in every transaction. Never tell a lie, because thus you hurt your own soul, and disgrace yourself in your own eyes. {RH, January 12, 1911 par. 4}

By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. {RH, May 7, 1901 par. 9}

Everything that Christians do should be as transparent as the sunlight. Truth is of God; deception, in every one of its myriad forms, is of Satan. . . . We can not speak the truth unless our minds are continually guided by Him who is truth.

65

{SD 64.5}

The Lord will not only reveal himself as a God of long-suffering mercy, but by terrible things in righteousness he will make it manifest that he is not a man that he should lie.

Never let your children have the semblance of an excuse for saying, Mother does not tell the truth. Father does not tell the truth. When you are tried in the heavenly courts, shall the record be made against your name, A deceiver?

Parents, never prevaricate; never tell an untruth in precept or in example.

Exodus 20:16

Thou shalt not bear false witness.

Exodus 23:1

Thou shalt not raise a false report.

Exodus 23:7

Keep thee far from a false matter.

Leviticus 6:2-4

If a soul ... lie unto his neighbour ... or hath deceived his neighbour ... Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely. ... Then ... he shall restore that which he took.

Leviticus 19:11

Neither lie one to another.

Deuteronomy 5:20

Neither shalt thou bear false witness.

Proverbs 12:22

Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.

Proverbs 13:5

A righteous man hateth lying.

Proverbs 24:28

Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips.

Luke 3:14

Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely.

Ephesians 4:25

Wherefore putting away lying, speaking every man truth with his neighbor.

Colossians 3:9

Lie not one to another.

Revelation 21:8

All iars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

Revelation 21:27

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

===============================================================================

2. Its OK to lie some times.

Joshua 2:4-6

And the woman [Rahab] took the two men and hid them and said thus: There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were; and it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark that the men went out; whither the men went I wot not; pursue after them quickly, for ye shall overtake them. But she had brought them up to the roof of the house and hid them with the stalks of flax.

James 2:25

Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?.

Exodus 1:18-20

And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men-children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives.

1 Kings 22:21-22

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him .. I will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him and prevail also; go forth and do so.

2 Kings 8:10

And Elisha said unto him, go, say unto him, Thou mayest certainly recover: howbeit the Lord hath showed me that he shall surely die.

[Woody]

OK. Let's get to the bottom of this. What lie do you wish to commit? Tell us that and we will tell you if it is OK.

[Sulla]

I do not thing you should ever lie. But some have said its OK if you are say protecting the life of someone. And I want to know the truth.

[fccool]

It's not OK to lie, but I don't think it's even should be an issue here. It's like discussing if it's OK to drink in family of alcoholics. The nature of truth is such that we will inevitably lie at one point or another. Sometimes we do it knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. God uses us where we are, and it is a slow mind change. The ability to avoid lying is directly proportional with ability to know the truth. If we do not have the whole truth, or if we are mistaken on issues, then we will lie.

The dilemma that you are referring to is a classic Christian dilemma of the lesser of two evils, but the fact remains that both of these are evils and you have to choose the lesser of these. First of all it is a false dichotomy. In which case you are only presented a choice where there's only two ways out, when in reality there will be more. You can save life and not lie at the same time. In either case, it is not OK to lie, murder, lust, and steal, even though God used people who did those things. Much of the OT is historical narrative for our education. Some of it describes pretty brutal things, but it does not mean that God is behind these 100%.

I think more valid question would be, would you lie to a person who can't sing? Is pretense under guise of "love" is OK?

[Sulla]

fccool versus?

[olger]

It's never ok to lie. Next question please

oG

[Taylor]

Honesty to me is the most important thing in the world.

However , as Sulla pointed out, there are condoned cases and even blessings given, life preserved, honor bestowed upon people who lied in the Bible. Apparently we don't understand all reasons as to why.

[Robert]

James 2:25 Was not Rahab, the harlot, justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Rahab was justified by faith, but her faith in God came into action being she put her life on the line in helping the spies.

Technically she transgressed the law, but God's doesn't look at the action He looks at the motive. Hence you can do the wrong thing for the right motive.

Abraham was also justified by faith alone, but his faith was made mature years later when he was willing to put a knife into Isaac the son of promise.

You see God promised that through Isaac Abraham's children would be as the stars in the sky. He also promised that through Isaac the messiah would come.

So when God told him to take his only son and kill him, Abraham thought to himself, "God promised that through Isaac my offspring would be like the stars of the heavens, therefore if I murder him God will have to raise him from the dead." That's faith folks - a faith that works.

But please remember that Abraham was already justified by faith before circumcision and before the test of faith to sacrifice his son.

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Is it ever ok to lie?

Do I need to give an honest answer?

I think it comes down to motive - selfish or altruistic.

[Woody]

Quote:

Is it ever ok to lie?

Do I need to give an honest answer?

What do we have here ??? A little Shaneish Humor ? tu

You've just earned three Redwood Rewards. Yes, three Swiss N Swedish rewards for Shaneish Humor. Congrats.

[Windsor]

How many people here have said "fine" when asked how they were doing when in reality things were going quite badly and you didn't want anyone to know? Will God punish you for doing that?

[Woody]

If he wanted to do that ... I would now be DEAD.

[carolaa]

I do think that most of the time there are ways to respond without lying. You don't have to say anything at all, for instance. Or you can say you appreciate *something* about that special music, no matter how hideous it was (like how heartfelt or creative it was). There are certainly many times when a person would be wise to hold back from telling their honest feelings (like on the job). But to save the life of someone else? That's a tough one, and I wouldn't presume to judge another person in that matter.

[aldona]

The Jewish people teach that there are three sins which should be avoided even at the cost of life - these are idolatry, incest and murder. Here are some examples of quotes from "Code of Jewish Law" by Rabbi Solomon Ganzfried (1961):

Quote:

A person who is critically ill, may use for his cure, any forbidden article, for no law can stand in the way of saving a man's life with the exception of idolatry, incest and murder, which must not be transgressed even at the risk of losing one's life.

Quote:

A woman at childbirth is considered as one critically ill; and the Sabbath laws SHOULD (my emphasis - not just "may") be disregarded for her sake in providing all she requires.

This provides some historical background and allows us to see the case of Rahab, etc, in their proper context.

aldona

[LifeHiscost]

It's never ok to lie. Next question please

oG

"Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another." Leviticus 19:11 KJV

"And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent."

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV

"Then he said, " At this season next year you will embrace a son " And she said, "No, my lord, O man of God, do not lie to your maidservant." 2 Kings 4:16 NASB

"Would I lie against my right? Yet, notwithstanding my right, I am counted a liar. My wound is incurable, though I am without transgression."

Job 34:6 AMP

"Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies." Psalm 40:4 KJV

"Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" Psalm 89:35 KJV

"He who works deceit shall not dwell within my house;He who tells lies shall not continue in my presence.

Psalm 101:7

The commandment does not say, 'Thou shalt not lie'. It says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor..." OTOH there seems to me much evidence that to be a habitual liar is opposed to being godlike which is what God asks from us.

Will not God make a way to keep a truthful tongue to such as would covet the character of God.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV

"Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind." Romans 14:5 AMP

The fact that one might decide that it is OK to lie, does not reveal God's will for the individual, nor even a consensus to lie.

Regards!

[olger]

A-men

[aldona]

And yet we are left with the scenario that Rahab was commended for saving the lives of the Hebrew spies, even though she told a lie.

And the Hebrew midwives in Egypt were blessed by God for saving the lives of the male babies, even though they had lied to Pharaoh.

I think what our Jewish friends are trying to say in their commentary is that sin is still sin, but in a situation where someone's life is at stake, the lie becomes the lesser of the two evils, and the duty to preserve life takes precedence.

Just as, I hope, most Adventists would have no hesitation in disregarding the Sabbath laws in providing necessary care for someone who is critically ill or a woman giving birth. This does not mean that you are a Sabbath-breaker, or that the Sabbath commandment ceases to be valid. The point is that saving life takes priority.

aldona

[carolaa]

And yet we are left with the scenario that Rahab was commended for saving the lives of the Hebrew spies, even though she told a lie.

And the Hebrew midwives in Egypt were blessed by God for saving the lives of the male babies, even though they had lied to Pharaoh.

I think what our Jewish friends are trying to say in their commentary is that sin is still sin, but in a situation where someone's life is at stake, the lie becomes the lesser of the two evils, and the duty to preserve life takes precedence.

Just as, I hope, most Adventists would have no hesitation in disregarding the Sabbath laws in providing necessary care for someone who is critically ill or a woman giving birth. This does not mean that you are a Sabbath-breaker, or that the Sabbath commandment ceases to be valid. The point is that saving life takes priority.

aldona

I pretty much agree with that. I also think that God takes us where we are and judges our hearts. Rahab was not yet a follower of God when she lied, so she can hardly be held to account for His requirements. Likewise, the Hebrews had grown so far from God that they no longer remembered much of his requirements.

[Gerr]

How about this? Is this a lie or not?

Now the LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? Fill your horn with oil, and go; I amsending yuou to Jesse the Bethlehemite. For I have provided Myself a king among his sons."

And Samuel said, "How can I go? If Saul hears it, he will kill me."

But the LORD said, "Take a heifer with you, and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' Then invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what you shall do; you shall anoint for Me the one I name to you." 1 San 16:1-3 NKJ

Or this.

Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!"

And he said, "Here I am."

Then He said, "Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burn offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you."

So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddle his donkey...........And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonger and worship, and we will come back to you."

So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, "My father!"

And he said, "here I am, my son."

Then he said, "Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

And Abraham said, "My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering." Gen 22:1-8 NKJ

It's WWII and the Gestapo comes inquiring if you are hiding a Jew (which you are in fact doing). If you say you are but would not tell where the Jew is, you know that they would probably torture you until you would eventually betray the Jew. So the Jew would be dead and you and your family would be dead too. So what to do?

The commandment says, "You shall not bear witness AGAINST your neighbor."

Gerry

[Planey]

Originally Posted By: aldona

And yet we are left with the scenario that Rahab was commended for saving the lives of the Hebrew spies, even though she told a lie.

And the Hebrew midwives in Egypt were blessed by God for saving the lives of the male babies, even though they had lied to Pharaoh.

I think what our Jewish friends are trying to say in their commentary is that sin is still sin, but in a situation where someone's life is at stake, the lie becomes the lesser of the two evils, and the duty to preserve life takes precedence.

Just as, I hope, most Adventists would have no hesitation in disregarding the Sabbath laws in providing necessary care for someone who is critically ill or a woman giving birth. This does not mean that you are a Sabbath-breaker, or that the Sabbath commandment ceases to be valid. The point is that saving life takes priority.

aldona

I pretty much agree with that. I also think that God takes us where we are and judges our hearts. Rahab was not yet a follower of God when she lied, so she can hardly be held to account for His requirements. Likewise, the Hebrews had grown so far from God that they no longer remembered much of his requirements.

[David Koot]

The Bible says, 'Lying lips are an abomination to God.' End of question. It is never, never justifiable to lie.

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

Just as, I hope, most Adventists would have no hesitation in disregarding the Sabbath laws in providing necessary care for someone who is critically ill or a woman giving birth. This does not mean that you are a Sabbath-breaker, or that the Sabbath commandment ceases to be valid. The point is that saving life takes priority. aldona

"How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."

Matthew 12:12 KJV

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

Romans 7:6 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Rahab was not yet a follower of God when she lied, so she can hardly be held to account for His requirements. Likewise, the Hebrews had grown so far from God that they no longer remembered much of his requirements.

The first sentence is something we who believe often forget about others. The second also reveals a truth that one might apply to all who fail to spend time with the Word, therefor allowing God to be just while intervening for the ignorant.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" Luke 23:34 KJV

OTOH, in each person's life there will come a time when we are no longer ignorant of the principles that hold the universe in harmony with itself. When that comes to pass, our lives will receive the natural and spiritual consequences of the decisions for which we are unwilling to accept repentance.

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. " Acts 5:31 NASB

Regards!

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

Rahab was not yet a follower of God when she lied, so she can hardly be held to account for His requirements. Likewise, the Hebrews had grown so far from God that they no longer remembered much of his requirements.

The first sentence is something we who believe often forget about others. The second also reveals a truth that one might apply to all who fail to spend time with the Word, therefor allowing God to be just while intervening for the ignorant.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" Luke 23:34 KJV

OTOH, in each person's life there will come a time when we are no longer ignorant of the principles that hold the universe in harmony with itself. When that comes to pass, our lives will receive the natural and spiritual consequences of the decisions for which we are unwilling to accept repentance.

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. " Acts 5:31 NASB

Regards!

So, when we are no longer ignorant of God's principles, and are living in accordance with His will, we will be 100% truthful and reveal the presence of our Jewish neighbor in the basement to the Nazis, thus condemning him/her to death?

I can just imagine God saying on the day of judgement: "Well, you caused the death of your neighbor, but at least you scrupulously avoided telling a lie."

I prefer the rabbis' take on it. Saving life should have priority.

(And I do not apologize for using the Nazi analogy again; as a Polish person it is an occurrence that actually happened to members of my own family, and was a scenario frequently debated in the Polish Sabbath School and church I attended as a kid. This is not some emotive hypothetical story.)

aldona

[Tom Wetmore]

And then there are a couple of examples of God blurring the line on truth telling from the OT that haven't been mentioned yet. I don't have time to pull up the references right now,but can do so later. The first is the specific instructions God gave Moses in dealing with Pharaoh. A careful reading of that whole account shows that God told Moses to specifically say something that really wasn't the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. "Tell him you just want to go 3 days into the desert to sacrifice to your God." And then there is the odd story of the man of God punished for not going directly home as instructed but the other man of God who lied to him to divert him from his mission, even saying God had told him to do so, is left blameless.

Tom