Is it ever ok to lie?

[Woody]

Quote:

It's not a site; it's a book. They are stories written for children. One of them is entitled Readings for Families or something like that. Have you heard of it? It was a short book of maybe 100 pages.

I've searched the Ellen White Estate, the web, and Ebay. I have not been able to find a book of that title. I just think that if you are going to state the she did what you say .... if would be good if you could cite the name of it. It is easy to say she did something. It is quite another to prove it. Could you provide any kind of reference of any kind that she actually did as you say?

[Stan]

hmmm Sabbath Readings for the Home Circle?

[Woody]

Fiction on Sabbath? I sure hope not.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Is writing fiction or reading it condemned in the Bible

Good question John317 ...

Ellen White has a few things to say about 'fiction' that we might want to consider.

Quote:

"In turning from God's Word to feed on the writings of uninspired men, the mind becomes dwarfed and cheapened." (My Life Today, p. 107)

Quote:

I know that the recommendation in our papers of such infatuating books as Uncle Tom's Cabin will in many minds justify the reading of other books which are nothing but fiction. . . . This recommendation will make taxing work for those who are laboring to persuade the youth to discard fictitious reading. I have repeatedly seen the evil of reading such books as you recommend, and have an article all prepared, cautioning our youth in this very matter." (Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 516)

Quote:

"The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. AH 412"

Quote:

"Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny." {CT 383.2}

It would be an accusation if she wrote the above and then wrote fiction or encouraged it's use.

There are several things at issue here, though. First, what exactly is fiction? Is a book such as Pilgrims Progress included in Ellen White's statement? Is John Milton's Paradise Lost? Is the dialogue of the book of Job? How about the Song of Solomon? And then what about the stories by Uncle Arthur which are based on true stories but which contain much fiction, as in invented dialogue and in adding and rearranging of events for the purpose of constructing a good story?

Another question is whether all "fiction" is to be equally condemned? For instance, in the above statement by Ellen White, it seems that she is specifically targeting books that "encourage the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story, and which therefore tend to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought, unfitting the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny." Is Ellen White attacking all fiction per se or that fiction which results in the above negative effects? Certainly we can't say that either Pilgrim's Progress or Milton's Paradise Lost produce these results.

What reason do we have to say that the books for children that Ellen White helped to edit encouraged the habit of hasty and superficial reading and tended to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought, unfitting the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny? If it didn't, but instead had the effect of teaching children to love God and be a good citizen on this earth, then on what basis is Ellen White to be criticized for making those stories available?

[Gail]

I know what kind of books John317 is talking about. They are a compilation of true-to-life stories (I don't know if they really happened or not).

I've owned a few books like that, compilations of stories from long ago, in the days when nobility and sacrifice were virtues taught to children. The old readers had those kinds of stories in them, too.

[John317]

I believe you're right, Gail. I own them but I have so many books all over the place, it will take me a while to find them. I just happen to be rearranging my library today and tomorrow, so when I run across them, I will post their titles, etc.

They are certainly "true to life." They are not fanciful or unrealistic or romantic. They are just good stories for children to teach good lessons.

[Woody]

I would be interested to know if they are clearly defined as fiction? Are they in the fiction section of the library? Did Ellen White label them as fiction?

[John317]

Not sure of the answers to your questions here, Redwood. As soon as I know, I will either post it here or send you a PM. I should have definite, clear answers in a day or two.

[Inga]

You know, Gail, I really like your post. We would prefer to have a cut-and-dried rule book. But God does not deal with us like that. He knows our hearts and deals with us accordingly. It's not our business to judge others' relationship with God.

Aldona said:

The Nazi scenario has been mentioned, but I have mentioned before the case of Corrie Ten Boom. In her book she does lie to save the hidden Jews they had in her house. She had a (I think it was a) sister-in-law, who would not lie under any circumstances. When the Nazis were told that the hidden persons were "under the table" they didn't think to look under the floorboards.

God honoured BOTH women by blessing them in their circumstances. He even performed a miracle for Corrie, by helping her smuggle a bottle of vitamins for her sister into the concentration camp.

God knows the circumstances, and He knows our motives. He is a God of mercy, far beyond what we are with each other.

[Inga]

Oh my oh my, oh my!! Redwood would haveto bring up the reading of fiction!!

And I can't resist replying because of my English-teaching background.

I'll be going on vacation, so will probably not have time to follow through. But here's a question for everyone:

Is it possible to "lie" in telling a story that consists only of facts?

Is it possible to tell the truth in a story that is wholly fictitious? (Think "The rich man and Lazarus." Think "Pilgrim's Progress.")

Just something to stir up your pure minds.

(Maybe fact is not synonymous with truth, and maybe fiction is not synonymous with falsehood? Those of you quoting Ellen White please read the context. What she writes is "right on" in context.)

By the way, I've enjoyed the contributions on this thread. Obviously a lot of thinking has been going on already.

[Neil D]

Nice to "see" you again, Inga...Don't be a stranger to the board.

[John317]

Yes, you're saying the same thing I've been posting here.

But it was my fault that fiction was brought up. Redwood is only replying to something I posted about it earlier.

[WayneV]

What is a parable, fiction or non-fiction?

Did Jesus use parables?

Why does Ellen matter when we have God's Word?

Just some questions I have.

[John317]

What is a parable, fiction or non-fiction?

Did Jesus use parables?

... Just some questions I have.

Does this help?

The word "parable" comes from the Greek "παραβολή" (parabolē), the name given by Greek rhetoricians to any fictive illustration in the form of a brief narrative. Later it came to mean a fictitious narrative, generally referring to something that might naturally occur, by which spiritual and moral matters might be conveyed.

Examples of parable are Jesus of Nazareth's "Parable of the Prodigal Son" and Ignacy Krasicki's "The Blind Man and the Lame."

A parable is one of the simplest of narratives. It sketches a setting, describes an action, and shows the results. It often involves a character facing a moral dilemma, or making a questionable decision and then suffering the consequences of that choice. As with a fable, a parable generally relates a single, simple, consistent action, without extraneous detail or distracting circumstances. Many folktales could be viewed as extended parables.

The prototypical parable differs from the apologue in that it is a realistic story that seems inherently probable and takes place in a familiar setting of life.

Many fairy tales could be viewed as extended parables, except for their magical settings.

A parable is like a metaphor that has been extended to form a brief, coherent fiction. Unlike the situation with a simile, a parable's parallel meaning is unspoken and implicit, though not ordinarily secret.

[John317]

... Why does Ellen matter when we have God's Word?...

Because so often we either don't study God's word or we don't put it into practice. Also because there is so much doctrinal error and confusion, mostly due to the fact that so many people don't know their Bible's and obey it. God sent Ellen White to the church in order to keep it from going the way that other churches have gone.

[carolaa]

I believe the book in question is called "Scrapbook Stories," published by The Upward Way in 1989. I got my copy from the ABC.

It is a small book of character-building stories compiled by Ernest Lloyd, who took them from EGW's own scrapbooks in which she had collected stories for her own kids/grandkids. Some of her "scrapbook stories" also appeared in the Golden Grain booklets and the book "Sabbath Readings for the Home Circle."

I can find nothing to indicate whether these are true stories or not.

[carolaa]

I will add that EGW did not write any of these stories. She clipped and pasted stories she found into her scrapbook.

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen White put together a book of stories for children, all of which were fiction, but they were stories with a good lesson to teach its young readers.

Could you cite the title of this supposed fictional book? This is a serious accusation against Ellen White and I would like to be able to confirm it.

Hi Redwood,

Today I made a trip into Loma Linda and visited the Ellen White Estate there. I told the lady who worked there that Ellen White's grandchild, Grace Jacques, had those volumes near the door at her grandmother home, Elmshaven, the last time I visited it. She seemed surprised and said she'd never heard of such books.

BUT THEN,AFTER DOING A COMPUTER CHECK, looking for some of the words in the title that I gave her, she finally found the books.

The catalog listed them this way:

Her

Vault

BV

4515

S113

1877-81

V. 1

C. 3

The lady was kind enough to xerox copies of the title page as well as the first chapter of the first volume. It reads, "SABBATH READINGS for THE HOME CIRCLE. Moral and Religious Lessons. Vol. 1. The Pacific Press: No. 1059 Castro Street, Oakland, Cal. 1877."

The computer read-out says, "[compiled by Ellen White.]"

I'm sure if you ask about them at Andrews University or at Washington, D.C., they will give you the same information.

Apparently the first volume was published in 1877 and then another one was published in 1881. (It appears from the catalog that there were 4 volumes of these stories published.)

Ellen White wrote a brief introductory note at the beginning of the first volume but this note does not give her name; it only says, "Compiler."

The first story is entitled, "The Daughter of the King," and is obviously intended to teach children the importance of work. It's about a mother whose daughter dislikes work and says she wishes she were a princess. After that her mothers relates the sad lesson learned by the daughter of King Louis XVI of France and his wife Marie Antoinette. She spent years working in her prison cell, and thus the woman's daughter is encouraged also to learn to work hard.

The "compiler's" preface begins, "The compiler of this series of volumes has been gathering a large amount of moral and religious reading the past twenty years, from which selections have been made, admitting only those which may be read with propriety on the Sabbath." Nothing is said regarding whether they are true stories but only that they teach good, moral lessons.

Hope this info helps.

As far as I can tell-- and in my own judgment, based on what I know of Ellen White and of her teachings-- I see nothing in these books that would make me think less of her. She was only trying to help children be better citizens and prepare for Christ's return.

[Bravus]

The problem, I think, is not with EGW but with a too-narrow definition of 'lying', and perhaps with our old shibboleth of taking EGW quotes out of context and treating them as though they were a 'thus saith the Lord'.

[John317]

Very good comment, I think. Couldn't agree more!

[Nightingale]

Is it not true that lying is an intention to deceive? I dont see that this would apply to these books in the least.

[Tom Wetmore]

That is correct unless they are being passed off as "really truly" real life stories and experiences of real people as some similar collections have been...

[Woody]

Quote:

As far as I can tell-- and in my own judgment, based on what I know of Ellen White and of her teachings-- I see nothing in these books that would make me think less of her.

I agree with you John. I see nothing that would indicate that these stories are fiction. Therefore there would be no conflict with her strong words against reading fiction.

[Gregory Matthews]

The issue of SABBATH READINGS FOR THE HOME CIRCLE has been well studied. In many, but not all, the origonal authors of the individual authors are known. In some of the cases they are not known. But, in others not only are they known but it is known where they were first published and thus the source for them. As a result we know that the origonal authors of many of them were well-known novelists of her day and that they were first published in works that typically published fiction.

What does this mean? Does it mean that EGW did not live what she taught? I will leave that for a minute. Do we really expect that EGW would perfectly live what she taught? I do not. I do not expect that any human would perfectly live what they believed and taught. The record is clear in other areas of EGWs life that she did not. She struggled with eating flesh foods at a time when she advocated a vegetarian diet.

She personally ate oysters long after she advocated that we should give up unclean foods. This issues makes an interesting point. In the 94 years that have passed since EGW died we today have a tendency to read back into her time the understandings that we have today rather than looking back to her time to see what the understanding was in her time. In regard to oysters, the SDAs of her time were not in agreement as to what constituted "unclearn foods." IOW when EGW advocated giving up unclean foods, those early leaders were divided as to what foods were unclean. Some advocated that foods we would generally think today were unclean could be eaten.

Now, to get back to EGW and fiction: We need to be careful to not read into her writings a defination of fiction that she did not have. I will suggest that you will find her defination in her writings. She describes what she is talking about in her use of the word fiction. Again, this subject has been studied. If I may summ up the conclusions of some, it is believed that her useage of the word "fiction" applied to what I would call the romantic, soap opera novel.

In my thinking, honesty requires me to acknowledge that her SABBATH READING books contained stories that were fiction. While I do not charge others with this, to me anything less than that on my part would be intellectual dishonesty. So, I now face the question: Is this problem with my understanding of what EGW meant, or is it with her doing what she advocated that others do? Again, I do not hold her to a standard of perfection in what she taught. To me the most reasonable answer to this question is that the issues lies with my understanding of what she meant and therefore in her life she was consistent with what she taught on this subject.

Once I have reached this point I will suggest that in her useage of the word "fiction" she did not mean a lteral truth.

Folks this is a major issue that we fact today in regard to EGW. I have already mentioned food. Another aspect of this same issue is that of jewlery. In contrast to what many thought, EGW wore some jewlery. But that is another discussion.

[Nightingale]

It seems as though some are holding EGW to a higher standard than they hold the writers of the Bible. Do you suppose that Paul lived up to everything he taught after he was shown by the Holy Spirit. I think he states that he did not. However, when he saw that he was wrong, he repented, confessed and went on. I beleive the same is true of EGW.

Some of us seem to forget the times in which she lived and how much of what she was shown was new to her and actually to everyone. I wonder how we would react?

It interesting that many cry "legalism" when faced with the Sabbath and rightousness by faith but appear to pick at what they perceive to be her faults. If we followed that reasoning we would have to throw out much of the Bible as the writers did not live up to all the truth they proclaimed. All have sinned.

We forget that the true authors of the Bible are not the writers but the Holy Spirit. The same applies to EGW. The closer we get to the end the more we need the Holy Spirit. We need to live up to all we DO know and ask the Holy Spirit to give us the knowledge and the power to live as close to His life as we can through His power. Often we are like children asking "what is wrong with .... instead of asking for the power to live His life.