Is it ever ok to lie?

[lazarus]

WOW,

So all of us who are saying its wrong to lie under any circumstances feel that our governments should do away with their clandestine services and such the like.

Winston Churchil

"The truth must sometimes be surrounded by a bodyguard of lies."

[Neil D]

So after calling me a liar, and "dealing" with me by responding to my post; you state that you "will not deal with ... a liar". So was this a lie? Will you now refuse to deal with yourself? Or is this just a little "white" exaggeration for rhetorical effect?

If you will allow a bit of TIC Henry, and allow me to explain the pschyi of some ultra conservative Adventists.....and this general post is directed at no one in peticular

It has been my observation that the internet allows for some to come to the 'microphone' , so to speak, to give evidence of thier wisdom, and either 1]how wise it is or 2]how common this wisdom that they are imparting to you truely is....this latter path is usually intended to make you feel a bit 'out of the norm'.... The truth of the matter, is that the recipiant has to filter the message of those at the microphone, and decide how much "truth" they are willing to put up with...IOWs, just how much of a lie is being broadcast as truth....

The other lie is the lie of integrity....Of course, **I** wouldn't decieve you, but **MY** ethics do not permit the obvious lie...What is not broadcast is just how convoluted those ethics truely are....

...luckily, I am not hampered by such eithics....I broadcast my hyprocrosy all over.../TIC

[Tom Wetmore]

..."Go, find out where he is," the king ordered, "so I can send men and capture him." The report came back: "He is in Dothan." Then he sent horses and chariots and a strong force there. They went by night and surrounded the city. ... Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for."

but it WAS the road,

and it WAS the city,

and the very man they were looking for was telling the soldiers this lie!

(My favorite lie story.)

Yes, I overlooked that good one. Elisha's clever deception was rewarded because the Syrians didn't bother Israel any more. Also God was apparently in on the ruse since he cooperated with Elisha by blinding the Syrians.

The lie to Pharaoh can be found in Exodus 5:1-3, repeated again in 8:26-28 and 10:24-26. God clearly instructs Moses to tell Pharaoh that they only want to go into the desert for 3 days to sacrifice and worship their God. It is like he is only asking for a holiday break for the Israelites. And the deception was understood by Pharaoh since he tries at one point to reach a compromise that they could sacrifice to God in Egypt instead of having to go out in the desert. And Pharaoh later tries to bargain with Moses about how much of their herds could be taken with them. Moses further embellishes the deception by saying they have to take all of them since they won't know until they get to the place of worship which animals to sacrifice. And Pharaoh concedes to the worship in th desert ruse by telling Moses to not go too far away.

The other story I referenced is in 1 Kings 13. It is a rather bizarre story about two prophets. One is killed by a lion for disobeying God's traveling instructions to him. But the weird part is that the other prophet clearly lies to the first one, causing the first one to disobey God's instructions to him. But the first prophet gets punished and the liar doesn't.

Tom

[John317]

The commandments that Jesus gave his followers and the church are not intended for the governments of the world. For instance, Jesus' words were not directed to, or an attempt to convert, the Romans Empire per se. ("My kingdom is not of this world.") Because of their purpose in the world, governments have to do a lot of things that would be wrong for Christ's followers to do.

In the first place, governments are not part of the church, nor a religious organization, and consist largely of non-believers. Moreover, the Bible says the governments are part of this world's system, which is ruled, not by God, but by the devil (John 14: 30; 12: 31; 16: 11; 2 Cor. 4: 4; 1 John 5: 19). So, unlike individual Christians and the church, we can't expect the governments of the world to be part of the kingdom of God. There is a clear separation.

We hope and pray that governments are influenced by Christians, but we have to keep in mind that governments have a much different role from that of the church. The role of governments, in this evil and dangerous (yet astonishingly beautiful) world, is to help keep law and order and punish evil, primarily so that the church is able to do its work of spreading the gospel and preparing a people for Christ's return (Romans 13: 1-7).

[Lil Star]

A lie is a lie is a lie. No matter what the color or the reason behind the lie.

I am bowing again as I have learned that if I disagree with anyone, I am soon to be banned. I have stated MY OPINION.

If you feel that I have called you a liar then so be it. I have not 'dealt' with you nor would I. God will deal with liars.

I just stated an OPINION of how *I* feel when it comes to lying.

ALL my posts are general. I have stated this in the past and am stating this again.

I have just read the 10 commandments again. I guess you are right, you are allowed to lie for no where in the 10 commandments is there a place that says you shall not lie. As long as you lie with the best of intentions then *I* guess it is ok. I like to think that when I say something that I would receive respect for what I say because I do not lie. However I have come to realize that as long as there is a reason behind the lie, (not to hurt anyone with the lie)then by all means, LIE!!! It is okay! No one will trust me later but that is okay as long as I did it with all the best of intentions. Thanks for helping me along in that regards. h5

---------------DISCLAIMER------------

ALL THE POSTS I MAKE ARE ALL GENERAL IN CONTENT AND NOT POSTED TOWARDS ANYONE PERSONALLY. If I have something personal to say, then I will do so via PM's.

[David Koot]

I must take issue with my learned online friend, John317. The principles of the Ten Commandments are applicable to individuals as well as entities, including governments. Consider how God had dealt with nations over the centuries. The book Education contains some interesting observations about that. God gives nations and empires their chance, their day in the sun, to see what they will do, if they will be faithful to their trust, or not. If they prove unfaithful, then God brings them down. The Ten Commandments are for all individuals, entities and peoples everywhere, for all time.

As for Great Britain (Lazarus referred to one of Winston's sayings), that truth is so very evident in the history of the British empire. In fact, the missionary impulse, the Bible societies, the pervasive influence of the Christian faith in Great Britain AT ONE TIME, IMO contributed to her rise to greatness. As the religious influence waned and was replaced with secularism and realpolitik the British empire began its decline. Churchill ("the last lion") was, I dare say, the expiring gasp of a once-great empire. Now, we might expect Scotland to secede within our lifetimes.

Dave

Dave

[Stan]

One needs to define what a lie is.

I have a screen name as Stacy-man and my real name is Stan, is that a lie?

[Lil Star]

Maybe it is or maybe it isn't. I have learned today that one can lie and as long as it is done without being hurtful to another then it is just fine! So, whatever the screen name or whatever the changed part of a life, it's okay to lie. So, it does not matter to me whether or not it is a lie any longer. We can and are allowed to lie! Woo hoo!!!!

I have been energized to find out I can now lie!

TIC

Now, it is a beautiful day today. Some clouds yet blue sky in between the clouds. No rain until this evening. It's beautiful outside!

[John317]

..The principles of the Ten Commandments are applicable to individuals as well as entities, including governments. Consider how God had dealt with nations over the centuries. The book Education contains some interesting observations about that. God gives nations and empires their chance, their day in the sun, to see what they will do, if they will be faithful to their trust, or not. If they prove unfaithful, then God brings them down. The Ten Commandments are for all individuals, entities and peoples everywhere, for all time...

Actually, I agree with what you say here. The moral law of God, in principle, is for all peoples in all times and in all places. It is just as much a part of God's universe as the physical laws.

However, governments have no right to enforce or encourage the first four of the Ten Commandments, such as the Sabbath commandment. On the other hand, the church has a responsibility both to teach and encourage not only the fourth commandment but the first three also. This fact shows that there is a difference between the way the law of God relates to the church and the way it relates to governments of the world.

Take another example. Jesus addressed the "constitution of the kingdom of God," the Sermon on the Mount, to his disciples, not to the governments of this world. For instance, Jesus is telling His followers, rather than the governments, "You are the salt of the earth," "Don't resist the evil doer," or "If anyone slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

Romans 13: 4 says, "Government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong." Christians are not avengers to bring wrath on evil doers, but Governments are. Therefore it is plain as day that they are called to do things that Christians are not. As such, governments may have to lie and do other deeds contrary to the moral law as it is applied to the follower of Christ. For instance, it is appropriate for governments to go to war, protect its borders by use of deadly force, or to punish crime by taking human life, which things it would obviously never be right for the individual Christian to do.

On the other hand, nations, just like individuals, are judged by God according to the extent to which they show mercy to the poor and the sick, as well as on the basis of how they build up their people rather bring them down to ruin.

[John317]

One needs to define what a lie is.

I have a screen name as Stacy-man and my real name is Stan, is that a lie?

For me anyway, it seems obvious that it is not a "lie." No one thinks that your name is "Stacy-man," and it is not intended to deceive. Therefore, at least by my understanding of what a lie is, you are not lying when you create a screen name, because it is only serving the good and moral (I assume) purpose for which it was designed.

When I was growing up, my mother tried to convince me that fiction-writing was lying. Now I have great respect for my mother, and I would never needlessly or thoughtlessly contradict her. She turned out to be right far more than I used to think possible. But in this instance, I think she was wrong. She told me that if I continued to write or read fiction, I would be lost, because Revelation 22: 15 says that all those who practice lying will be found outside the walls of the city of God.

Is writing fiction or reading it condemned in the Bible because it is a lie?

I've studied literature enough to know that very good fiction is actually good "lying" in a sense. But is it lying such as the Ten Commandments condemns? Some Christian and SDA parents don't allow their children to read world literature for this reason, that they believe it's a lie. Is it?

[Woody]

Quote:

Is writing fiction or reading it condemned in the Bible

Good question John317 ...

Ellen White has a few things to say about 'fiction' that we might want to consider.

Quote:

"In turning from God's Word to feed on the writings of uninspired men, the mind becomes dwarfed and cheapened." (My Life Today, p. 107)

Quote:

I know that the recommendation in our papers of such infatuating books as Uncle Tom's Cabin will in many minds justify the reading of other books which are nothing but fiction. . . . This recommendation will make taxing work for those who are laboring to persuade the youth to discard fictitious reading. I have repeatedly seen the evil of reading such books as you recommend, and have an article all prepared, cautioning our youth in this very matter." (Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 516)

Quote:

"The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. AH 412"

Quote:

"Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny." {CT 383.2}

[Sulla]

Here are some of the root words for LIE in the Bible.

H8266

שׁקר

shâqar

shaw-kar'

A primitive root; to cheat, that is, be untrue (usually in words): - fail, deal falsely, lie.

H3584

כּחשׁ

kâchash

kaw-khash'

A primitive root; to be untrue, in word (to lie, feign, disown) or deed (to disappoint, fail, cringe): - deceive, deny, dissemble, fail, deal falsely, be found liars, (be-) lie, lying, submit selves.

G5574

ψεύδομαι

pseudomai

psyoo'-dom-ahee

Middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to utter an untruth or attempt to deceive by falsehood: - falsely, lie.

[John317]

Thanks for posting those quotes. I read, as a teen-ager and later, most of the things she wrote about fiction. It is not a simple topic. I've looked all the different angles and read arguments from different viewpoints.

These are some things that make it complicated:

1) Some of the rules about this would make Pilgrims Progress a sin to write and read because that book never happened.

2) The same rules, strictly applied, would probably make much of the book of Job a sin to write or read, because not all of the dialogue occurred in just the way it is presented. It has been constructed along literary lines, just like any other good story or long poem. (This is not to say, of course, that Job is fiction per se.) The same might be said about the Song of Solomon.

3) Ellen White put together a book of stories for children, all of which were fiction, but they were stories with a good lesson to teach its young readers.

4) Jesus told parables that are not factual. Their value consists in the lessons they teach, value that has nothing at all to do with whether they actually happened in exactly the way they are written.

5) John Milton Paradise Lost is not factually true, yet it is one of the greatest creations in the English language, and Ellen White had it in her library and read it.

6) How are the above different from a book such as Orwell's Animal Farm, a kind of parable, for instance? Or Heminway's great novel, The Old Man of the Sea, which was based on a true event? Are those lies?

So, what is a lie when it comes to "story"? How about a story invented for the purpose of teaching false values and lies about God or about human origins? Isn't that more important than whether the events related in the story actually happened just as they are related?

[David Koot]

Well, cousin Sulla from Texas, I note with interest your listing some general or root words from Scripture for 'lie.' Can you give us more detail on how the words are used, examples, and the grammar?

dave

[Woody]

Quote:

So, what is a lie when it comes to "story"? How about a story invented for the purpose of teaching false values and lies about God or about human origins?

What would Ellen White say?

Quote:

"Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny." CT 383

[Bravus]

So, Ellen White's proclamations and her actions do not always 100% match. Can any of us say that ours do? To me that just suggests that her proclamations are of value for thinking about the issues of life, but are not Holy Writ and are not to be used as such, as she herself has said. Her comment above on fiction is not God's comment on fiction, but the point she raises - that reading a lot of exciting fiction may make it harder to focus on reading the Bible - is a serious one and well worth considering.

Fiction may have carried us afield from the original intent of the thread though. I think that issue has been pretty well canvassed, and the views raised are generally pretty sensible.

The idea of absolute rectitude - that one's own iron honesty might require one to say to the Gestapo "Yes, there are Jews under the floorboards" - makes no sense to me. It seems like a form of selfishness, placing one's own honesty before others' lives.

(The argument is made that 'if I am faithful and true God will protect them', but for whatever His own reasons are that one fails the empirical test.)

In an ideal world all is simple, in the real world sometimes value decisions must be made, in terms of the highest possible good: an optimisation rather than a perfect solution. It's so easy for us to rationalise, but we can innoculate ourselves against that with fervent prayer and Bible study and the on-going quest to be selfless and Christ-like.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen White put together a book of stories for children, all of which were fiction, but they were stories with a good lesson to teach its young readers.

Could you cite the title of this supposed fictional book? This is a serious accusation against Ellen White and I would like to be able to confirm it.

[David Koot]

In an ideal world all is simple, in the real world sometimes value decisions must be made, in terms of the highest possible good: an optimisation rather than a perfect solution. It's so easy for us to rationalise, but we can innoculate ourselves against that with fervent prayer and Bible study and the on-going quest to be selfless and Christ-like.

Bogus, my friend, bogus. Stretching forth the hand to take the fruit of the Tree. Never, never, never is it right in the eyes of God for us to lie. Not under any circumstances. If you put your trust in the miracle-working power of God, He is able to rescue and deliver you. If that does not happen, does it mean that God is not able? Not at all. Never, never, never deviate from integrity and rectitude. Do not take it into your own hands to decide what is right and wrong. God is able and has promised to give wisdom as to what to say, and to bless with diplomacy. And God is able to intervene to accomplish His perfect will.

Dave

[Bravus]

OK. Remind me not to hide at Dave's place in the Time of Trouble, though.

[Woody]

Hey ... good one Bravus.

cker

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen White put together a book of stories for children, all of which were fiction, but they were stories with a good lesson to teach its young readers.

Could you cite the title of this supposed fictional book? This is a serious accusation against Ellen White and I would like to be able to confirm it.

It's not intended to be an accusation at all. If it is proven to you to be true, would it cause you to fault Ellen White or think less of her? It doesn't cause me think this way of her in the least. These are stories similar to those you find in Uncle Arthur's Bed-time Stories, which are hardly factual. They are good, wholesome stories that are designed like parables to teach lessons to children in morality and practical Christianity.

One of the great classics of Christianity, Pilgrim's Progress, is all fiction, created with the intention of illustrating the gospel. Ellen White had the same purpose in mind when she collected the stories for the children's book. I don't think she was wrong to do this. There is much fiction published in magazines for the youth, such in Little Friend. A long time ago, the editors of the LF used to ask only for "true stories," but they no longer do this.

I've forgotten the title of the book for which Ellen White helped to collect stories, but I can find out easily enough, and when I have, I'll send it to you via PM. Remind me please if I forget to do this.

[Woody]

I will ... thank you for looking it up. But since you made the accusation in public ... I think all would appreciate knowing the cite that you have referred to.

[Neil D]

I suspect that the word here is NOT accusation, but rather asertion...[sp?]

[John317]

It's not a site; it's a book. They are stories written for children. One of them is entitled Readings for Families or something like that. Have you heard of it? It was a short book of maybe 100 pages.

Ellen White didn't write the stories. She collected the stories from other periodicals or books and had them published especially for children.

By the way, why do you call this an "accusation"? In your mind, is it something damaging to Ellen White's character? I don't think of it that way at all. It's not as if anyone has made a secret of this book or books I'm referring to. You used to be able to pick it up for a donation at the Ellen White home in Elmshaven.

[Woody]

Quote:

Is writing fiction or reading it condemned in the Bible

Good question John317 ...

Ellen White has a few things to say about 'fiction' that we might want to consider.

Quote:

"In turning from God's Word to feed on the writings of uninspired men, the mind becomes dwarfed and cheapened." (My Life Today, p. 107)

Quote:

I know that the recommendation in our papers of such infatuating books as Uncle Tom's Cabin will in many minds justify the reading of other books which are nothing but fiction. . . . This recommendation will make taxing work for those who are laboring to persuade the youth to discard fictitious reading. I have repeatedly seen the evil of reading such books as you recommend, and have an article all prepared, cautioning our youth in this very matter." (Testimonies Vol. 5, p. 516)

Quote:

"The readers of fiction are indulging an evil that destroys spirituality, eclipsing the beauty of the sacred page. AH 412"

Quote:

"Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading, merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny." {CT 383.2}

It would be an accusation if she wrote the above and then wrote fiction or encouraged it's use.