Is it ever ok to lie?

[olger]

Many people in our culture prefer to see things on a slant. Pretty common.

oG

[Woody]

What is wrong with you people? The oG has spoken thusly:

It's never ok to lie. Next question please \:\)

oG

Please pay attention!!

ROFL

Graeme

[Neil D]

Quote:

What is wrong with you people? The oG has spoken thusly:

Originally Posted By: Olger

It's never ok to lie. Next question please \:\)

oG

Please pay attention!!

ROFL

Graeme

LOL LOL :x :S :A :D ROFL cker :R

Did I make me emotions clear?

Um, no...could you make that in simple langueage...written out for a 5th grader.....?

[Woody]

Who's the Fifth Grader around here?

[Neil D]

Well, I was thinking of the program "are you smarter than a 5th grader?".....

I figured if we made is so that they understood it, everyone else would too.....

[LifeHiscost]

Many people in our culture prefer to see things on a slant. Pretty common.

oG

And you put it much more diplomatically than I might have, olger. tu

Which is a good object lesson on how brothers/sisters would be better served when they are caught in a compromising position, as to how we ought to treat them when we are obviously

right.

"Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts." Proverbs 21:2 NASB

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Well, I was thinking of the program "are you smarter than a 5th grader?".....

I figured if we made is so that they understood it, everyone else would too.....

I'm glad you made that clear as I wasn't sure whether you were referring to the fifth one in line to grade, the fifth one to grade, or what it was we were grading to be fifth.

Can't we all just get along?

Regards!

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

Many people in our culture prefer to see things on a slant. Pretty common.

oG

And you put it much more diplomatically than I might have, olger. tu

Which is a good object lesson on how brothers/sisters would be better served when they are caught in a compromising position, as to how we ought to treat them when we are obviously

right.

"Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts." Proverbs 21:2 NASB

Regards!

AWW...shucks! Weren't nothing

oG

[Robert]

The question is would Jesus lie to save a life?

When the time of trouble comes down on us are we going to lie to save our own family from death? What about those things in the NT that say he who loves his life will lose it? Isn't the devil called the father of lies? I mean come on folks...lying is sin. There's no deception in agape. Does that mean I wouldn't do what Rahab did? Can't say that....I am glad God accept us where we are at. Hence, again, we can do the wrong thing for the right motive under grace.

[Woody]

Quote:

Hence, again, we can do the wrong thing for the right motive under grace.

How true. And praise God for His loving patience with us. His longsuffering with me is greatly appreciated. LS

[melvin mccarty]

General observation.

The commandment says we should not bear false witness AGAINST our neighbor. Doesn't say we should not FOR our neighbor. If someone asks me how I am today I will know he definately doesnt want to really know the whole ten yards so I will say fine and let it go at that. Are there no limits to how far we can broaden the 10 C'S?

mel

[Gerr]

The Bible says, 'Lying lips are an abomination to God.' End of question. It is never, never justifiable to lie.

Dave

The the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and name of the other Puah; and he said, "When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live." But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, "Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?"

And the midwives said to Pharaoh, "Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them."

Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. Ex 1:15-21 NKJ

Does anyone really believe that all the Hebrew women delivered their babies before the midwives got there?

Gerry

[Gail]

Aldona said:

Quote:

I think what our Jewish friends are trying to say in their commentary is that sin is still sin, but in a situation where someone's life is at stake, the lie becomes the lesser of the two evils, and the duty to preserve life takes precedence.

The Nazi scenario has been mentioned, but I have mentioned before the case of Corrie Ten Boom. In her book she does lie to save the hidden Jews they had in her house. She had a (I think it was a) sister-in-law, who would not lie under any circumstances. When the Nazis were told that the hidden persons were "under the table" they didn't think to look under the floorboards.

God honoured BOTH women by blessing them in their circumstances. He even performed a miracle for Corrie, by helping her smuggle a bottle of vitamins for her sister into the concentration camp.

God knows the circumstances, and He knows our motives. He is a God of mercy, far beyond what we are with each other.

[Woody]

Quote:

He even performed a miracle for Corrie, by helping her smuggle a bottle of vitamins for her sister into the concentration camp.

A thought just popped in my mind. Let me throw it out for what it is worth.

IF God wants to perform a miracle ... would we not be stopping the miracle if we lied and tried to keep the situation under OUR control? If we kept faithful and didn't lie ... then we could really see the hand of God.

But like you say Gail. God knows our heart. I doubt He would fault us either way.

[Sulla]

I think for me a lot of it has to do with faith. Because if you lie to save someone you are giving up on God. You are thinking the only way to save them is to lie because God can not.

[Guest gem]

To lie in order to save somebody is excusable to human "law" but that depends on circumstances. But in the eyes of God, well, he knows the circumstances and He knows our hearts.

And what do you call when someone lies in order to cover the lies he/she did for the wrong doings? Double lies? or.....?

[olger]

[Henry]

Before one characterizes a particular statement as a "lie", it would be useful to understand what is meant by a "lie".

I would characterize a "lie" as a false or misleading statement uttered with intent to deceive. A student who answers an exam question incorrectly is not lying, he is simply mistaken. Many people will utter statements that are factually incorrect, these are not lies if the intent to deceive is absent.

Conversely, a factually correct statement, or an ambiguous statement uttered with intent to deceive, is a lie. A notorious recent example was President Clinton's "There 'is' no inappropriate relationship". As "is" is in the present tense, and the inappropriate relationship did not exist at the time of the utterance, his statement was correct, but with intent to deceive. He lied.

Even silence, if maintained with the intent to deceive and with the reasonable probability that such silence will deceive, can be a lie.

One must also take into account usage, metaphor, figures of speech and custom. If one types "ROTF LOL" on an internet forum and one has not actually rolled on the floor and laughed our loud, I doubt one has lied. There is no intent to deceive readers about one actually rolling on the floor, and due to usage and custom, it is highly unlikely anyone will be deceived.

The common "how are you"; "fine thank you" greetings are by custom a mere formality. Unless familiarity among the speakers or a particular tone of voice betrays a true intent to inquire as to one's health and state of mind, one may safely assume that no such information is sought. If a mere acquaintance asks me "How are you?", and I'm not feeling well, there is no moral imperative for me to detail by true feelings or to state (truthfully) "I'd rather not discuss it". No - answering "fine, thank you" is appropriate and there is no lie, for by custom this form of greeting is just that, a form.

It is not lying to employ figures of speech such as metaphor and hyperbole. If one is generally of cheerful disposition and when relating an embarrassing incident, saying "I wanted to die" would not be understood as a desire to commit suicide - it is a mere figure of speech.

Another example. My name is not really "Henry". Yet I used this name for this forum. I'm not trying to deceive anyone into thinking my name is Henry - choosing an incomplete or unique internet name is one way of saying "I don't wish to reveal my identity". If the forum rules do not require one's legal name, there is no lie.

As well, knowing what a small world adventism is, when posting on the internet details of my personal life, I'll occasionally alter a key fact so as further to conceal my identity and lessen the likelihood of being identified

[Woody]

Boy o Boy ... Wait till Olger gets ahold of you and your identity. You will get an ear full.

[Lil Star]

Quote:

I'll occasionally alter a key fact so as further to conceal my identity and lessen the likelihood of being identified

This is an absolute lie. A lie is a lie is a lie. There are no black or white lies. A lie is a lie no matter how it is intended.

Why anyone would think a lie whether it is a white lie or a black lie would be considered 'ok' to do I have no idea. Once a lie spews out of the mouth, it is a lie no matter how it is intended. Maybe I am not the norm here or anywhere. IF I lie, I know I have lied. If I deliberately lied to conceal even a part of who or what I am, then that is a (in my opinion) a bold face lie. As I was brought up, two things I can not and will not deal with and that I despise the most is a liar and a thief.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well stated "Henry"... Thanks!

I would add a further example and further refinement to your definition. The 9th Commandment includes a clear implication of not only the intent to deceive but also to cause harm to another - "Do not falsely testify against your neighbor."

This would eliminate many of the polite "white lies" since there is no harm caused by telling your great auntie at the fitness club, when she asks you, that she looks just fine today even though you personally think she looks rather ghastly in her hot pink and purple spandex exercise gear. No harm done since most everyone else in her old people's aerobics class look just as goofy or worse.

But more importantly I think this understanding of the commandment also takes away the guilt some might have over the hiding the Jews from the Nazis example. The false statement made to the Gestapo causes no harm and in fact causes quite the opposite, greater good in saving lives.

While the weakness of this is that it requires us to exercise some human wisdom and judgment that may be flawed by our sin weakened condition, this is true of just about everything else in life I should think.

Another example of false statements not being lies is the whole topic of works of fiction. There is no intent to deceive since the reader knows quite well that what he is reading is not true and therefore is not deceived. The further refinement above does make this a bit more tricky perhaps, since some fiction may well be intended to cause harm or certainly not intended to do any good. But much fiction has been employed to teach valuable lessons and greater and deeper truths that may not be available in the telling of factually accurate real life stories - i.e., Jesus use of parables.

Tom

[Lil Star]

Quote:

This would eliminate many of the polite "white lies" since there is no harm caused by telling your great auntie at the fitness club, when she asks you, that she looks just fine today even though you personally think she looks rather ghastly in her hot pink and purple spandex exercise gear.

IF it were to be me asking that question, I would want the truth about how I looked. But, that is only me. My opinion. Go on, I will slide out of this one.

[olger]

Quote:

This would eliminate many of the polite "white lies" since there is no harm caused by telling your great auntie at the fitness club, when she asks you, that she looks just fine today even though you personally think she looks rather ghastly in her hot pink and purple spandex exercise gear. No harm done since most everyone else in her old people's aerobics class look just as goofy or worse.

rofl

og

[ChasW]

And then there are a couple of examples of God blurring the line on truth telling from the OT that haven't been mentioned yet. I don't have time to pull up the references right now,but can do so later. The first is the specific instructions God gave Moses in dealing with Pharaoh. A careful reading of that whole account shows that God told Moses to specifically say something that really wasn't the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. "Tell him you just want to go 3 days into the desert to sacrifice to your God." And then there is the odd story of the man of God punished for not going directly home as instructed but the other man of God who lied to him to divert him from his mission, even saying God had told him to do so, is left blameless.

Tom

"Go, find out where he is," the king ordered, "so I can send men and capture him." The report came back: "He is in Dothan." Then he sent horses and chariots and a strong force there. They went by night and surrounded the city. ... Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for."

but it WAS the road,

and it WAS the city,

and the very man they were looking for was telling the soldiers this lie!

(My favorite lie story.)

[Henry]

Quote:

Why anyone would think a lie whether it is a white lie or a black lie would be considered 'ok' to do I have no idea.

Do you really have no idea? Even after several posters have explained this point of view? Or are you merely pretending not to have any idea of possible motivations for uttering falsehoods in order to give greater rhetorical effect to your statement? Or is your statement "I have no idea" a bald-faced lie?

Or do you give allowance for rhetorical flair and figures of speech such as hyperbole, understatement and the like.

Quote:

As I was brought up, two things I can not and will not deal with and that I despise the most is a liar and a thief.

So after calling me a liar, and "dealing" with me by responding to my post; you state that you "will not deal with ... a liar". So was this a lie? Will you now refuse to deal with yourself? Or is this just a little "white" exaggeration for rhetorical effect?

Disclaimer: The above comments are partially "tongue-in-cheek"* and constitute a form of "sarcasm", so let no one be deceived.

* Lest anyone be deceived, I did not literally place my tongue in my cheek while typing the above post; "tongue-in-cheek" is an expression and is not meant to be taken literally.