Robert Posted May 3, 2008 Posted May 3, 2008 This is the whole thing: -PC- RH -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 05-07-01 -AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness -PR- 02 ...The lawyer who questioned Christ concerning the law, in answering his own question, said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." "Thou hast answered right," Christ said; "this do, and thou shalt live."....God is not a man, that He should lie." God's law is the rule of His government. He says, "This do, and thou shalt live." But to the disobedient He says, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them."... John (or anyone), why does Ellen G. White present Old Covenant terminology in her writings (see the above red lettering) when clearly she links these phrases (obey & live, disobey & die) with the Old Covenant? "The terms of the 'old covenant' were, Obey and live: 'If a man do, he shall even live in them' (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5);but 'cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.' Deuteronomy 27:26." Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted May 4, 2008 Moderators Posted May 4, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert This is the whole thing: -PC- RH -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 05-07-01 -AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness -PR- 02 Why does Ellen White mix Old Covenant language (as seen in the above) when she clearly links the OC to obey and live, disobey and die? " The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5);but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26. " First of all, thanks very much for providing "the whole thing." I really do appreciate that. I plan on getting the Ellen White CD and also the PDA eBook Collection of her writings. Have you seen that? What a wonderful source that will be! She uses those words in the context of the New Covenant, not the Old. The words are true under the New Covenant but they have a new, different meaning. The ancient Jews took them to teach "works of the law" but in reality they teach "works of faith" because it is only by faith in Christ that anyone can truly keep the law of God, anyway. And it doesn't mean that you and I must keep the law absolutely flawlessly, either. Remember that it's all said in light of 1 John 1: 5-10 and John 3:16 and Romans 3: 21-26. Taken together, none of these contradict Ellen White's quote, nor do any of them contradict 1 John 3: 1-10. When reading the quote you gave us, we must also take into account the following very important quote that comes quickly on the heels of the first quote and which helps to make clear that Ellen White is not thinking in legalistic terms: Quote: The law of Jehovah is great, even as its Author is great. In the Judgment it will be recognized as holy, just, and good in all its requirements. Those who transgress this law will find that they have a serious account to settle with God; for His claims are decisive. Christ has borne our sins in His own body, and those who accept Him as a personal Saviour are free from the penalty of the law. Jesus has been made the propitiation for our sin, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected. Hereby know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him, ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." To the obedient child of God the commandments are a delight. David declares, "Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage forever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart. I have inclined my heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. Depart from me, ye evil-doers: for I will keep the commandments of my God. . . . I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies." 1 John 3: 1-10 teaches the same thing that Ellen White teaches in the above quote. And the apostle John wrote 1 John 1 before he wrote 1 John 3. Both the Apostle John and Ellen White are saying that the only way we can "obey and live" is through union with Jesus Christ, and that if one is not in a faith-based union or fellowship with Jesus, one will "disobey and die." God never intended anyone to think that we humans on our own can "obey and live." That is an utter impossibility. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted May 4, 2008 Moderators Posted May 4, 2008 Quote: The lawyer who questioned Christ concerning the law, in answering his own question, said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." "Thou hast answered right," Christ said; "this do, and thou shalt live." [OC language] Sin can not reign in the life of the one who loves God supremely….The law of God lays its claim upon the whole man. There is no period of time when the law does not make this demand upon every son and daughter of Adam. This is why I can't fully accept EGW as a prophet. Now she does say that she is not infallible....Why then do you John place her in such a position of great authority? Clearly either she understood what she was writing or she was ignorant. I assume the latter. There are people who don't accept the Bible as fully inspired because they misunderstand it or because they only have part of the evidence. Maybe Ellen White is not saying what you think she is. I don't think she is contradicting everything else she has said on the subject. She evidently wrote this fairly late in life. Put the whole in the context of the line: "Sin can not reign in the life of the one who loves God supremely." Notice it doesn't say "people do not ever commit a sin" when they love God supremely. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted May 4, 2008 Posted May 4, 2008 Why does Ellen White mix Old Covenant language when she clearly links the OC to obey and live, disobey and die? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted May 4, 2008 Moderators Posted May 4, 2008 I'll carefully study your post Sunday and give it a thorough reply. Meantime, take a look at the things that Ellen White said in this part of the quote you gave us: Quote: "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, isa liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected. Hereby know we that we are in Him. He that saith he abideth in Him, ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." To the obedient child of God the commandments are a delight. David declares, "Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage forever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart. I have inclined my heart to perform thy statutes alway, even unto the end. I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love. Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word. Depart from me, ye evil-doers: for I will keep the commandments of my God. . . . I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies." Notice the highlighted parts of the quote. Do you believe anyone "keeps His commandments"? If not, then according to the verse, no one knows God. If no one keeps His commandments, then according to the Bible, no one should be saying they know God. Thus you and I don't know God. Paul did not know God. Then according to this-- if you are right, that no one keeps God's commandments-- only Jesus knew or knows God. Everyone else is ignorant of God. Again, in your view, God's love is not perfected in anyone, nor can it be, because no one keeps His word. Again, no one is "an obedient child of God," according to your definition of obedience. And finally, David could not possibly obey God's commandments, so he was self-deceived at the very least when he said, "I will obey the commandments of my God." Have I misstated any of your views of these quotes? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted May 4, 2008 Posted May 4, 2008 I'll carefully study your post Sunday and give it a thorough reply. Meantime, take a look at the things that Ellen White said in this part of the quote you gave us.... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted May 4, 2008 Moderators Posted May 4, 2008 Quote: Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. Ellen White gave Old Covenant commands, period. Why? Because they are still applicable. There is nothing wrong with the commands. Everything depends on whether we see the words in the light of legalism and apart from the grace of God, or whether we see them in the streams of light coming from the cross of Christ. If we obey God there is still blessing and life, but if we choose to go our own way and live in disobedience to God and contrary to his character, it still leads to death. I would write a lot more but I am preparing for a trip to Hawaii tomorrow. I will go to a Internet cafe over there and continue our conversations at that time. I think you probably believe Ellen White did not really mean what she said but that she was using the law in order to stop the mouths of legalists and show them that it is impossible to be saved by the law. I would be interested in hearing your understanding. What evidence is there from other writings of Ellen White that your view of this is correct? What do you see in the whole article in which the quote occurs that supports your view? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted May 4, 2008 Posted May 4, 2008 Ellen White gave Old Covenant commands, period. Why? Quote
Robert Posted May 5, 2008 Posted May 5, 2008 Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.” The Judaizers (Jews who had accepted Christianity, but continued to make the keeping of the law a requirement for salvation) taught that, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” [Acts 15:5] What was Paul's answer to their demands? Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of bondage (compare Acts 15:10). 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (as a requirement), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Quote
Don_Don07 Posted May 6, 2008 Posted May 6, 2008 God will be worshiped on his Sabbath... He does "For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." So the Sabbath is Commandment is to be both in heaven and Earth As a reminder... Deutronomy 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Sabbath Rest / Worship In the Kingdom Restored: Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Sabbath Rest / Worship on Earth: By God in the Church Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. Also Mark 1:19 etc. By God outside of the Church Matt 12:1-12 Good reading about the Sabbath, the Priest, and even how it is correctly kept "...Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days." Luke 6:1-9 " Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy [it]? There are more... It's pretty obviouse thou...For instance in Exodus 16... The 4th Commandment as written in Exodus doesn't say don't go gather Quail... However for 40 years they learned with clear minds about the Sabbath and rest... For Mr. Rob I guess we could define Worship thou... Would you do that Rob? What do you believe Worship is? What does the Bible tell us Worship is? --- At least We know clearly from this which day Worship is. Rob, you've done a excellent Job in favor of God's cause by helping to point that out. Quote “Preach the Gospel and wherever necessary use words!” Let your life be a sermon.
Don_Don07 Posted May 6, 2008 Posted May 6, 2008 John317 - Mr. Rob has been here for some time and Changes up his argument from time to time and from post to post. I don't know why that is but he's not consistant. In this post he has said some things that are different... It's been a while since I talked with you though Rob... You still are circumventing straight questions thou Sir. Rob - I have three questions of which I'd like to take one by one. What day is the Sabbath? Are we to Rest on that Day as God Commanded? What is Worship? Quote “Preach the Gospel and wherever necessary use words!” Let your life be a sermon.
Robert Posted May 7, 2008 Posted May 7, 2008 What day is the Sabbath?Are we to Rest on that Day as God Commanded? What is Worship? Saturday. How do you interpret Hebrews 4:9,10? That's the only reason for NC, NT Sabbath observance to my understanding. I don't know.... Quote
Don_Don07 Posted May 10, 2008 Posted May 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Don_Don07 What day is the Sabbath?Are we to Rest on that Day as God Commanded? What is Worship? Saturday. How do you interpret Hebrews 4:9,10? That's the only reason for NC, NT Sabbath observance to my understanding. I don't know.... Hey Mr. Rob. One at a time... You gave two answers to the three questions. The 2nd you gave a question for a answer so I'd like to deal with the two first, just for clearification not for argument sake. I do want to talk about your question though. It is good that we are in agreement that Saturday is the Sabbath. Great, The Bible is very clear on that. Simply because it is not clear to you what worship is does not nigate the fact that those who will be in heaven will Worship God on his Sabbaths as God gives us in Isaiah 66:23, nor does it nigate the fact that our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ Worship from one Sabbath to another in the temple, where at least one form of worship is also done. Jeremiah 26:2 Revelation 11:1 There are more but I don't think this is unclear. Yet Worship is very important. And we should train our hearts to worship God. Look at these few text: They Worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear." "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" Has to be some of the most awful and fearful text. God's wrath without mixture... Why I don't think we have ever seen. Wouldn't you agree that worship is very important. Why not search through the Bible and find out what it is together? How do we worship, and what is it? Quote “Preach the Gospel and wherever necessary use words!” Let your life be a sermon.
Don_Don07 Posted May 10, 2008 Posted May 10, 2008 Would you agree that Jesus Worshipped on Sabbath? Would you agree that those who will be in heaven will Worship God on Sabbaths Isaiah66:23? Quote “Preach the Gospel and wherever necessary use words!” Let your life be a sermon.
Don_Don07 Posted May 10, 2008 Posted May 10, 2008 . Quote “Preach the Gospel and wherever necessary use words!” Let your life be a sermon.
Robert Posted May 10, 2008 Posted May 10, 2008 Simply because it is not clear to you what worship is does not nigate the fact that those who will be in heaven will Worship God on his Sabbaths as God gives us in Isaiah 66:23 Quote
Robert Posted May 10, 2008 Posted May 10, 2008 Has to be some of the most awful and fearful text. God's wrath without mixture... Why I don't think we have ever seen. Wouldn't you agree that worship is very important. Let me guess: "I am God. Worship Me or I'll kill you!" Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 11, 2008 Posted May 11, 2008 Let me guess: "I am God. Worship Me or I'll kill you!" OTOH, "...you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted May 11, 2008 Posted May 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Let me guess: "I am God. Worship Me or I'll kill you!" OTOH, "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11 KJV Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the completion of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: “The man who does these things will by them live.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: ...if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 11, 2008 Posted May 11, 2008 if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV Which of the commands (counsels) of Jesus do you feel we are able to dispense with on a personal level, and yet as professed followers have full confidence Heaven will be our home? Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted May 11, 2008 Posted May 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV Which of the commands (counsels) of Jesus do you feel we are able to dispense with on a personal level, and yet as professed followers have full confidence Heaven will be our home? Regards! You left that part out of my quote of Romans. Here's your answer: 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law by that righteousness shall live. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks thus.... Your quote from Matthew 7 is speaking of the self-righteous - those who think that they are measuring up. They are not standing on the Rock, Jesus Christ, but rather the sand of legalism. Quote
Robert Posted May 11, 2008 Posted May 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV Which of the commands of Jesus do you feel we are able to dispense with on a personal level, and yet as professed followers have full confidence Heaven will be our home? Regards! "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [Gal 3:10] Gal 5:3 "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [one of the rules in the book of the law], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law." Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 11, 2008 Posted May 11, 2008 Quote: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV Which of the commands (counsels) of Jesus do you feel we are able to dispense with on a personal level, and yet as professed followers have full confidence Heaven will be our home? Regards! You have yet to answer the question or are you saying that in your opinion we can have full confidence whether we follow and believe His counsels or not? Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted May 11, 2008 Posted May 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost Quote: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21 KJV Which of the commands (counsels) of Jesus do you feel we are able to dispense with on a personal level, and yet as professed followers have full confidence Heaven will be our home? Regards! You have yet to answer the question or are you saying that in your opinion we can have full confidence whether we follow and believe His counsels or not? Regards! "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [Gal 3:10] Gal 5:3 "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [one of the rules in the book of the law], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law." Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 12, 2008 Posted May 12, 2008 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost ] You have yet to answer the question or are you saying that in your opinion we can have full confidence whether we follow and believe His counsels or not? Regards! [/quote'] Originally Posted By: Robert "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” [Gal 3:10] Gal 5:3 "And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [one of the rules in the book of the law], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law." "A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory." Matt 12:20 KJV "Quench not the Spirit." 1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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