'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I have limited light too...but I can't say what I state contradicts the Bible. It contradicts your traditional understanding maybe' date=' but that's not my problem. [/quote']

Robert ... I hope to point this out in as a polite way as possible ... but Gerry didn't direct his comment to you. He was talking to John317 if you will notice. He was saying that John317 had some cherished opinions that he wouldn't let go of. Of course you know that you and I would not do that. I am glad that he didn't accuse you or I of this. But I am concerned that he would even direct it towards John317.

No, that was directed at Robert because he likes to quote that passage.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

I challenge you on this one too, John.[/quote']

Quote:

Finally, where is the Ellen White quote found in a standard publication?

What is PC, PT, DT, AT, and PR? I don't have any publications of hers with these abbreviations.

Ellen White CD. Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

Quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

Okay...now you are getting somewhere! Why would Ellen White give us Old Covenant demands? Compare the red highlighted areas in both my quote and your quote. Tell me why she would give Old Covenant statements? Yes?

1. Your notion that obedience is an Old Covenant demand is totally false!!!!!!!!

a). Man severed his connection with God when he willfully sinned. The whole purpose of grace is not only to save him but "to lead people of all nations to BELIEVE & OBEY." Rom 1:5 NCV; "BELIEVE & OBEY," NLT; "obedience that comes from faith" NIV; "obedience that springs from faith" Wey; "obedience inspired by faith." Wms.

. If obedience is not required by the New Covenant, why then would Jesus tell the paralytic at Bethesda and the woman caught in adultery, "GO AND SIN NO MORE?" Why then would Paul say that those who "practice such things [adultery, fornication, idolatry, hatred, etc. etc.] will not inherit the kingdom of God?" Gal 5:21, 19,20.

c). Did God change His attitude toward sin with the New Covenant? NOOOOOOO. Paul, whom you like to appeal to to back up your erroneous notion has this to say: [color:red]"For the WRATH of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unbrighteousness...." Rom 1:18 NKJ.

His wrath is even more pronounced now because man has now more revelation about His antipathy towards sin. And then in verses 28-32:"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who knowing the righteous judgment of God, THAT THOSE WHO PRACTICE SUCH THINGS ARE DESERVING OF DEATH, NOT ONLY DO THE SAME BUT ALSO APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM." NKJ. cf Gal 5:19-21, Eph 5:3-7.

d) If obedience to His commandments is not demanded by the NC, why would God bother to have His law written in the heart? See Heb 8 & 10. In case you think that salvation by grace is only a NT doctrine, see Heb 11 for all the OT saints who were saved by grace through faith.

2. Nowhere from Gen. - Rev. will you find that there is a blessing given to law-breakers. The opposite is true. If fact, the very last beatitude in the Bible is reserved for those who keep His commandments.

3. Nowhere does the Bible, even in the OT, or EGW teach that anyone is saved by keeping the law. The Old Covenant as it came from God was a covenant of GRACE, but the Israelites turned it into a covenant of works. Hebrews clearly points out that the fault was "with them", Heb 8:8. The New Covenant of Grace can be just as easily turned into a covenant of works as the OT covenant. The Judaizers and the Galatians did this.

4. The Law is a legal code, and does not take into account a person's condition. While God is a God of justice, He is also a God of mercy. That's why He extends mercy and grace. In his sinful condition, man cannot obey God's law. But when a sinner puts his/her complete faith/trust/confidence in Jesus his Savior, he/she is born again, becomes a new creation, indwelt by the omnipotent third person of the Godhead, then "it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NKJ. And as long as he/she is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the believer will not keep on practicing willful/deliberate disobedience, 1 Jn 3:6-10.

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Actually I think it's obvious that there many things revealed to her that the Bible prophets knew nothing about.

Supposition....And the way she interpreted those things had to be colored by her religions views of her time. She is not free of error. Christ was....

It is only supposition if you deny that God revealed anything to her in the dreams and visions. If those were from God, then it is obvious that He gave her revelations that others did not receive. They did not receive the details that she did about end-time events, for instance. They wrote nothing in detail about America's critical role in the end-times. Also, they did not receive the details about the health message, nor about the heavenly sanctuary, that Ellen White was given. Also, the clear identities of the "man of sin" and of Babylon. These are just five examples of revelations that she saw that the Bible writers did not. There are many more.

Do you believe that Paul's understanding of things was also colored by his religious views of his time? If Ellen White's interpretation of things was colored by her religious views of her time, why not Paul?

If God went to the trouble of revealing things to the prophets, don't you think God was capable of seeing that the message was given in a way that would communicate it clearly?

[John317]

....Okay...now you are getting somewhere! Why would Ellen White give us Old Covenant demands? Compare the red highlighted areas in both my quote and your quote. Tell me why she would give Old Covenant statements? Yes?

I'm trying to understand your thinking on this.

1) Did Ellen White preface her statement by saying that she was referring to "complete" or absolute obedience to the law of God? In other words, is she talking about the necessity of being sinless?

2) Is she saying that this is speaking of an attempt to obey the law of God for the purpose of earning righteousness and salvation?

3) Do you believe that any human besides Christ can be said to be "obedient" to God? Can anyone be said to obey God's commandments or His law?

The Bible does say that at least some believers "keep God's commandments," and about others it says that they do God's will, etc. In what sense do Christians keep His commandments or do His will?

[Woody]

Quote:

"Of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

So, why would Ellen White claim that she was shown the day and the hour of our Lords return? ... IF even Jesus was not shown? This is a strange one to me.

[Robert]

Quote:

Your notion that obedience is an Old Covenant demand is totally false!!!!!!!!

I am asking you to deal honestly with EGW's quote. Again, look at my quote and John's:

Quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

Note the following from above:

"The terms (plural) of the "old covenant" were,

1] "obey and live"

2] but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them".

In short, "obey and live, disobey and die"!

That's John's quote from Ellen. Now compare to my quote from Ellen:

Quote:

....He [God] says, "This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

What were those two commands that God gave?

A] "This do, and thou shalt live"

B] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

That comes from my quote of Ellen.

Now compare 1 & A side by side:

"obey and live" to "this do, and thou shalt live". They are one and the same.

Now compare 2 & B side by side:

"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" to “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Again, the same.

Ellen White, as John pointed out from his quote of her, calls these terms (obey & live, disobey & die) the "old covenant".

Now again, why would EGW give Adventists the "old covenant"?

Stay with the topic.

Robert

[Robert]

Do you believe that Paul's understanding of things was also colored by his religious views of his time? If Ellen White's interpretation of things was colored by her religious views of her time, why not Paul?

Look...this is a good question, but you're bating me....I will never place EGW on the same level with Paul and/or the Bible. So let's stop right now. I ain't going there.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

....Okay...now you are getting somewhere! Why would Ellen White give us Old Covenant demands? Compare the red highlighted areas in both my quote and your quote. Tell me why she would give Old Covenant statements? Yes?

I'm trying to understand your thinking on this.

1) Did Ellen White .....

John...just read what I said and please stop sidetracking. Look at my reply to Gerry above.

[Robert]

Quote:

Your notion that obedience is an Old Covenant demand is totally false!!!!!!!!

I am asking you to deal honestly with EGW's quote. Again, look at my quote and John's:

Quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

Note the following from above:

"The terms (plural) of the "old covenant" were,

1] "obey and live"

2] but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them".

In short, "obey and live, disobey and die"!

That's John's quote from Ellen. Now compare to my quote from Ellen:

Quote:

....He [God] says, "This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

What were those two commands that God gave?

A] "This do, and thou shalt live"

B] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

That comes from my quote of Ellen.

Now compare 1 & A side by side:

"obey and live" to "this do, and thou shalt live". They are one and the same.

Now compare 2 & B side by side:

"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" to “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Again, the same.

Ellen White, as John pointed out from his quote of her, calls these terms (obey & live, disobey & die) the "old covenant".

Now again, why would EGW give Adventists the "old covenant"?

Stay with the topic.

Robert

Now in John's quote EGW links "obey & live, disobey & die" with the OC. Is she right to link it? Well, I think EGW (if alive) would say "go to your Bible". Let's do this:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Where is Paul quoting from? Deuteronomy 27:26

“Cursed be he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them."

And in Romans 10:5 Paul states that, "Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, (verse 9) if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”

So Paul links "works of the law" with the OC. The Judaizers were pushing circumcision as means of salvation. What did Paul given them in return?

Gal 3:10 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [see Acts 15:1,5], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [All the rules...everyone, not just the basic ten]

So we see Paul using the OC as a means to shut the mouths of the legalists.

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law [the terms of the OC]: that every mouth may be stopped [shut], and all the world may become guilty before God." [Romans 3:19]

Again, is Ellen White using these very same quotes (obey & live, disobey & die) in the same manner as Paul or is she actually presenting the OC - salvation by law? You tell me!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Quote:

Your notion that obedience is an Old Covenant demand is totally false!!!!!!!!

I am asking you to deal honestly with EGW's quote. Again, look at my quote and John's:

Quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

Note the following from above:

"The terms (plural) of the "old covenant" were,

1] "obey and live"

2] but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them".

In short, "obey and live, disobey and die"!

That's John's quote from Ellen. Now compare to my quote from Ellen:

Quote:

....He [God] says, "This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

What were those two commands that God gave?

A] "This do, and thou shalt live"

B] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

That comes from my quote of Ellen.

Now compare 1 & A side by side:

"obey and live" to "this do, and thou shalt live". They are one and the same.

Now compare 2 & B side by side:

"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" to “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Again, the same.

Ellen White, as John pointed out from his quote of her, calls these terms (obey & live, disobey & die) the "old covenant".

Now again, why would EGW give Adventists the "old covenant"?

Stay with the topic.

Robert

Now in John's quote EGW links "obey & live, disobey & die" with the OC. Is she right to link it? Well, I think EGW (if alive) would say "go to your Bible". Let's do this:

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Where is Paul quoting from? Deuteronomy 27:26

“Cursed be he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them."

And in Romans 10:5 Paul states that, "Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, (verse 9) if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”

So Paul links "works of the law" with the OC. The Judaizers were pushing circumcision as means of salvation. What did Paul given them in return?

Gal 3:10 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [see Acts 15:1,5], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [All the rules...everyone, not just the basic ten]

So we see Paul using the OC as a means to shut the mouths of the legalists.

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law [the terms of the OC]: that every mouth may be stopped [shut], and all the world may become guilty before God." [Romans 3:19]

Again, is Ellen White using these very same quotes (obey & live, disobey & die) in the same manner as Paul or is she actually presenting the OC - salvation by law? You tell me!

Did Jesus give the law to expose or shut the mouth of the self-righteous? We know He gave the terms of the OC in the OT, but did He use the terms of the OC in the NT? Yes.

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law [a Pharisee] stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [He clearly wanted to earn heaven by keeping the law] 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

See, the Pharisee wanted to justify himself by his law keeping. What did Christ give Him? The OC! Why? To shut his mouth.

So Jesus will use the law to expose folks self-righteousness. That's the intent of the OC!

[Woody]

Quote:

The Bible does say that at least some believers "keep God's commandments," and about others it says that they do God's will, etc. In what sense do Christians keep His commandments or do His will?

From my reading of the Bible .... One of the people who would qualify as a commandment keeper according to God ... would be David. God seemed to think that he was perfect and kept God's law. I think we could benefit a lot from looking at this man of God and the life he lived.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Ever hear of the word hyperbole?Gerry

Quote:

Oh stop it! Take it as it reads: "ALL THINGS"!

[/quote']

If you don't recognize that even the Bible uses figures of speech, then it is no wonder that you have some very strange interpretations of scripture.

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD." Rom 1:8 NKJ

Do you really believe that the American Indians heard of the gospel?

"The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, "You that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, THE WORLD has gone after Him!" Jn 12:19 NKJ.

Do you really believe that the whole world had gone after Christ to follow Him?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Your notion that obedience is an Old Covenant demand is totally false!!!!!!!!

I am asking you to deal honestly with EGW's quote. Again, look at my quote and John's:

Quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

Note the following from above:

"The terms (plural) of the "old covenant" were,

1] "obey and live"

2] but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them".

Paul said essentially the same thing when he said, "the wages of sin is death!"

Again, I ask you, where in Scripture does the New Covenant pronounce a blessing to ANYONE who does not continue in God's commandments?

Paul emphatically says: "...those who practice such things [sinful things] will NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21

"Those who PRACTICE such things [sinful things] are deserving of death..." Rom 1:32.

SOOOOOOOOO, whether OT or NT, OC or NC, there is a curse for practicing lawbreakers!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

In short, "obey and live, disobey and die"!

That's what the Bible teachers from Genesis to Revelation!!!

Quote:

That's John's quote from Ellen. Now compare to my quote from Ellen:

Quote:

....He [God] says, "This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

What were those two commands that God gave?

A] "This do, and thou shalt live"

B] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

That comes from my quote of Ellen.

Now compare 1 & A side by side:

"obey and live" to "this do, and thou shalt live". They are one and the same.

Now compare 2 & B side by side:

"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" to “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Again, the same.

Ellen White, as John pointed out from his quote of her, calls these terms (obey & live, disobey & die) the "old covenant".

Now again, why would EGW give Adventists the "old covenant"?

Stay with the topic.

Robert

John already pointed out that the terms of the OC & the NC are EXACTLY THE SAME!!! Of the NC, Paul says:

[color:red]"Behold the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house is Israel and with the house of Judah - not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD; I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS;...."Heb 8:8-10 NKJ. Cf Heb 10, Jer 31:31-34.

When Jesus said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Is that to shut up His disciples?

When the Revelator said, "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life..." Rev 22:14, is that to shut up His disciples?

When the wisest of men said, "Keep my commands and live, and my law as the apple of your eye. Bind them on your fingers; write them on the tablet of your heart." Prov 7:3 NKJ. Is that to shut up the not so wise?

When God through Moses told the Israelites, "Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God command me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say,

Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'" Dt 4:5,6 NKJ.

Is that to shut them up?

Strange doctrine.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

See, the Pharisee wanted to justify himself by his law keeping. What did Christ give Him? The OC! Why? To shut his mouth.

So Jesus will use the law to expose folks self-righteousness. That's the intent of the OC!

Give law to the one who has been keeping the law all his life?

Strange doctrine!!!

Gerry

[Robert]

Paul said essentially the same thing when he said, "the wages of sin is death!"

[Robert]

Quote:

See, the Pharisee wanted to justify himself by his law keeping. What did Christ give Him? The OC! Why? To shut his mouth.

So Jesus will use the law to expose folks self-righteousness. That's the intent of the OC!

Give law to the one who has been keeping the law all his life?

Strange doctrine!!!

Gerry

So you think the Pharisee was actually keeping the law? The Pharisees were so righteous that when Jesus came on the scene, and exposed their self-righteousness, they got p'd and murdered Him. You call that righteousness?

Again, compare yourself - your self-love - to Christ's selfless agape love. He gave up everything for you - in fact on the cross He was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His murders could take His place. Therefore Jesus fulfilled the law...not just the letter, but especially the spirit of the law, which requires agape love. He gave up everything for you. There was no self-love in His life.

Since Christ fulfilled the law and since you aren't even close to living Christ's life, has the law shut your mouth yet or are you still bragging?

[Robert]

I am asking you to deal honestly with EGW's quote. Again, look at my quote and John's:

Quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

Note the following from above:

"The terms (plural) of the "old covenant" were,

1] "obey and live"

2] but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them".

In short, "obey and live, disobey and die"!

That's John's quote from Ellen. Now compare to my quote from Ellen:

Quote:

....He [God] says, "This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

What were those two commands that God gave?

A] "This do, and thou shalt live"

B] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

That comes from my quote of Ellen.

Now compare 1 & A side by side:

"obey and live" to "this do, and thou shalt live". They are one and the same.

Now compare 2 & B side by side:

"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" to “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Again, the same.

Ellen White, as John pointed out from his quote of her, calls these terms (obey & live, disobey & die) the "old covenant".

Now again, why would EGW give Adventists the "old covenant"?

Stay with the topic.

Try again,

Rob

[Robert]

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

What is Paul saying? If you think you can work your way into heaven by your law performance (works of the law) then you must abide by everything written in the book of the law or you are eternally cursed.

11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.”

The law demands obedience to live, but faith brings life.

12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”

The law doesn't care if you believe (have faith in it) - it requires performance. Hence, only those who practice all the rules can live.

Clearly Paul understood this "strange doctrine"! Why? He was no longer a legalist.

[Robert]

I am asking you to deal honestly with EGW's quote. Again, look at my quote and John's:

Quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

Note the following from above:

"The terms (plural) of the "old covenant" were,

1] "obey and live"

2] but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them".

In short, "obey and live, disobey and die"!

That's John's quote from Ellen. Now compare to my quote from Ellen:

Quote:

....He [God] says, "This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

What were those two commands that God gave?

A] "This do, and thou shalt live"

B] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

That comes from my quote of Ellen.

Now compare 1 & A side by side:

"obey and live" to "this do, and thou shalt live". They are one and the same.

Now compare 2 & B side by side:

"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them" to “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” Again, the same.

Ellen White, as John pointed out from his quote of her, calls these terms (obey & live, disobey & die) the "old covenant".

Now again, why would EGW give Adventists the "old covenant"?

Stay with the topic.

Try again,

Rob

Your silence speaks volumes.

Thank you,

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I'm trying to understand your thinking on this.

1) Did Ellen White .....

John...just read what I said and please stop sidetracking. Look at my reply to Gerry above.

Do you believe that believers are able to obey what Paul writes below?

Do you believe that Paul is telling his readers that if they don't perfectly obey everything, and ever sin, they will die?

If believers obey Paul's directions, will they not be blessed? On the other hand, if people do not obey Paul's directions, will they not be "cursed"?

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Do Not Grieve the Spirit

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Eph. 4: 17-32.

[Robert]

Do you believe that believers are able to obey what Paul writes below?

Why do you persist on leading me away from the context? Why?

Here's the question again: "Why would Ellen White give us Old Covenant demands?"

[Robert]

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.

[Robert]

On the other hand, if people do not obey Paul's directions, will they not be "cursed"?

I don't see that in your quote from Paul. However, I do find it in Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

If you think that your performance to the law is what gets you into heaven Paul has bad news for you!

If you are to make it into heaven based on works then you must keep all the rules - everyone of them and you must do it perfectly and with the right motive. You must live to serve - that is, you must deny self. Otherwise you've had it....To be cursed means no resurrection for you. You must take "the curse of the law" - the 2nd death.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

On the other hand, if people do not obey Paul's directions, will they not be "cursed"?

I don't see that in your quote from Paul. However, I do find it in Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

If you think that your performance to the law is what gets you into heaven Paul has bad news for you!

If you are to make it into heaven based on works then you must keep all the rules - everyone of them and you must do it perfectly and with the right motive. You must live to serve - that is, you must deny self. Otherwise you've had it....To be cursed means no resurrection for you. You must take "the curse of the law" - the 2nd death.

I think one of the reasons you have this confusion about what Ellen White and the Bible teach on this subject is that you keep reading it through legalistic glasses. No one talking about making it into heaven based on works. People can read the passage I posted, Eph. 4: 17-32, in the same legalistic way they might read the Ten Commandments. God never intended us to read it that way, and neither does he intend us to read Eph. 4 that way. He wants us to read it in the light of the cross and in the light of Romans 8 and 1 John 1, 2.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't see that in your quote from Paul. However, I do find it in Gal 3:10

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

If you think that your performance to the law is what gets you into heaven Paul has bad news for you!

If you are to make it into heaven based on works then you must keep all the rules - everyone of them and you must do it perfectly and with the right motive. You must live to serve - that is, you must deny self. Otherwise you've had it....To be cursed means no resurrection for you. You must take "the curse of the law" - the 2nd death.[/quote']

I think one of the reasons you have this confusion about what Ellen White and the Bible teach on this subject is that you keep reading it through legalistic glasses.

What you think or perceive is immaterial. You still haven't answered my question. Why? Because you just don't know! Admit it.....