'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Robert]

Now here's the problem: How can God convince a bunch of egocentric, know-it-all human being that they are completely void of any true righteousness? By giving and expanding upon the law! In other words the best way to shut a legalist's mouth is to load him down with rules he can't possibly keep. That's why God gave the Old Covenant.

Now did EGW use "the Old Covenant" to shut the mouths of the self-righteous? Yes - read:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-01

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. "God is not a man, that He should lie." God's law is the rule of His government. He says, "This do, and thou shalt live." But to the disobedient He says, "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them." "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

Is she teaching legalism? Yes! Does that mean she endorses it? No!

Now let's look at Christ:

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Notice his question - "What must I do"! He wants life by performance. How does Christ answer him?

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

The expert in the law sums the law. Now look at Christ's answer to his question, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

28 .... “ "This do, and thou shalt live."

Christ, like EGW, is giving the self-righteous the law in order to break them of their legalistic attitude.

[Woody]

Thank you Robert. This makes it very clear. At least to most of us.

[John317]

There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. "Because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." 1 Peter 2:21.

The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.

[John317]

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience.

So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us.

When we speak of faith, there is a distinction that should be borne in mind. There is a kind of belief that is wholly distinct from faith. The existence and power of God, the truth of His word, are facts that even Satan and his hosts cannot at heart deny. The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith--faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97. And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1.

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.

No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.

The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image. (Steps to Christ, pp. 59-65.)

[John317]

Quote:

Lucky for you God can save you even in your love of self

This is good news.

Please explain what you mean that God can save you even in your love of self. Are we back to saying that God saves us IN our sins? Doesn't He rather save us FROM our love of self and FROM our sins?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Lucky for you God can save you even in your love of self

This is good news.

Please explain what you mean that God can save you even in your love of self. Are we back to saying that God saves us IN our sins? Doesn't He rather save us FROM our love of self and FROM our sins?

Please John...think outside the box. What does the law do with sinners? It says, "There is none righteous" and it condemns us to the 2nd death.

Now Christ, by uniting Himself to our corporate humanity that needed redeeming, legally saved us from "the curse of the law." Therefore "in Christ" we have been saved from "the wages of sin". He shall save His people from their sins - that is, the result of their sins - death!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Please explain what you mean that God can save you even in your love of self. Are we back to saying that God saves us IN our sins? Doesn't He rather save us FROM our love of self and FROM our sins?

Please John...think outside the box. What does the law do with sinners? It says' date=' "There is none righteous" and it condemns us to the 2nd death.

Now Christ, by uniting Himself to our corporate humanity that needed redeeming, legally saved us from "the curse of the law." Therefore "in Christ" we have been saved from "the wages of sin". He shall save His people from their sins - that is, the result of their sins - death!

[/quote']

Jesus saves us from more than the results or penalty of sin. You've apparently already forgotten 1 John 3: 1-10 even though we have studied it many times before. It is obvious that true faith in Christ results in salvation FROM our sins, not IN our sins; and it clearly is not simply talking about saving us from death.

1See (A)how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called (B)children of God; and such we are For this reason the world does not know us, because ©it did not know Him.

2(D)Beloved, now we are (E)children of God, and (F)it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He (G)appears, we will be (H)like Him, because we will (I)see Him just as He is.

3And everyone who has this (J)hope fixed on Him (K)purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and (L)sin is lawlessness.

5You know that He (M)appeared in order to (N)take away sins; and (O)in Him there is no sin.

6No one who abides in Him (P)sins; no one who sins has seen Him or (Q)knows Him.

7®Little children, make sure no one (S)deceives you; (T)the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is (U)of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning (V)The Son of God (W)appeared for this purpose, (X)to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is (Y)born of God (Z)practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10By this the (AA)children of God and the (AB)children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who (AC)does not love his (AD)brother.

Cross references:

1 John 3:1 : John 3:16; 1 John 4:10

1 John 3:1 : John 1:12; 11:52; Rom 8:16; 1 John 3:2, 10

1 John 3:1 : John 15:18, 21; 16:3

1 John 3:2 : 1 John 2:7

1 John 3:2 : John 1:12; 11:52; Rom 8:16; 1 John 3:1, 10

1 John 3:2 : Rom 8:19, 23

1 John 3:2 : Luke 17:30; Col 3:4; 1 John 2:28

1 John 3:2 : Rom 8:29; 2 Pet 1:4

1 John 3:2 : John 17:24; 2 Cor 3:18

1 John 3:3 : Rom 15:12; 1 Pet 1:3

1 John 3:3 : John 17:19; 2 Cor 7:1

1 John 3:4 : Rom 4:15; 1 John 5:17

1 John 3:5 : 1 John 1:2; 3:8

1 John 3:5 : John 1:29; 1 Pet 1:18-20; 1 John 2:2

1 John 3:5 : 2 Cor 5:21; 1 John 2:29

1 John 3:6 : 1 John 3:9

1 John 3:6 : 1 John 2:3; 3 John 11

1 John 3:7 : 1 John 2:1

1 John 3:7 : 1 John 2:26

1 John 3:7 : 1 John 2:29

1 John 3:8 : Matt 13:38; John 8:44; 1 John 3:10

1 John 3:8 : Matt 4:3

1 John 3:8 : 1 John 3:5

1 John 3:8 : John 12:31; 16:11

1 John 3:9 : John 1:13; 3:3; 1 John 2:29; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18; 3 John 11

1 John 3:9 : 1 Pet 1:23; 1 John 3:6; 5:18

1 John 3:10 : John 1:12; 11:52; Rom 8:16; 1 John 3:1, 2

1 John 3:10 : Matt 13:38; John 8:44; 1 John 3:8

1 John 3:10 : Rom 13:8-ff; Col 3:14; 1 Tim 1:5; 1 John 4:8

1 John 3:10 : 1 John 2:9

[Robert]

Doesn't He rather save us FROM our love of self?

When you hear the name "Daniel" you usually think of a very, upstanding righteous man, right? Read:

"It was the same presence of divine holiness that had caused the prophet Daniel to fall as one dead before the angel of God. He said, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." ....Humanity, with its weakness and sin, was brought in contrast with the perfection of divinity, and he felt altogether deficient and unholy." [EGW]

"When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory (holiness) surrounding the heavenly messenger (angel) that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love ,...." [EGW]

Now the point here is Daniel, who was a very Godly man, compared not to Christ, but rather an angel, saw himself as a selfish sinner because of his love of self.

Was Daniel in a saved condition even though he fell short of the glory of God* surrounding the angel? Answer: Yes.

* The glory of God is His agape love.

[Robert]

....Little children, make sure no one (S)deceives you; (T) the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous ....

Translation problems? Maybe, I'll tell you why: Paul teaches that even though we grow in grace, we fall short of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ. See Romans 3:23. And John says the same in 1 John 1:8.

Now who among you can claim that he or she is perfect, just as God is perfect? I mean read Matthew 5:48 -- "you are to be perfect, [how spotless?] as your heavenly Father is perfect"! That's what the law demands....Anything short of this is participating in sin.

[Robert]

It is obvious that true faith in Christ results in salvation FROM our sins

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright [i.e., that we are saved from our sins in our experience], that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ [His agape love] shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are ; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28,29]

"What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness." [3T 252]

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves . He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

[John317]

I agree with the Ellen White quotes, but that is not what it means to say we are saved in our sins. What you are saying would make Ellen White and the Bible teach that we are saved IN our sins, and Ellen White specifically denies that this is true. She clearly says that we are not saved IN our sins but FROM our sins. The fact that Daniel had a sinful, fallen nature, does not prove that we are all saved in our sins. That is to misconstrue what Ellen White is saying and to force her to contradict herself.

Again, study 1 John 3: 1-10. It says that those who are born of God do not and cannot practice sin. That obviously means we are saved from more than death. We are actually separated from our sins as we continue in our daily experience with Christ.

Both the Bible and Ellen White teach this. It is what Ellen White is saying on pp. 59 to 65 of her book, Steps To Christ.

[Robert]

The fact that Daniel had a sinful, fallen nature, does not prove that we are all saved in our sins. That is to misconstrue what Ellen White is saying and to force her to contradict herself.

And you are doing just that...misconstruing Ellen White because she is not just talking of Daniel's nature, but also about his sinful performance:

"The soul thus touched [by God's selflessness] will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love...."

Hating the principle of "self-love" is not the same as being selfless. I hate the principle of self-love and in my life there's less of self. I'm experience more agape! BUT, the fact is I still have in my life the love of self. I fall short (as did Daniel) of God's self-renouncing love. According to your theology I must be practicing sin.

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The fact that Daniel had a sinful, fallen nature, does not prove that we are all saved in our sins. That is to misconstrue what Ellen White is saying and to force her to contradict herself.

And you are doing just that...misconstruing Ellen White because she is not just talking of Daniel's nature, but also about his sinful performance:

"The soul thus touched [by God's selflessness] will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love...."

Hating the principle of "self-love" is not the same as being selfless. I hate the principle of self-love and in my life there's less of self. I'm experience more agape! BUT, the fact is I still have in my life the love of self. I fall short (as did Daniel) of God's self-renouncing love. According to your theology I must be practicing sin.

Rob

Explain what these verses mean:

3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

[Robert]

...but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28,29]

Impure here is not just talking of our nature (which is sin in itself) but also of our performance. We can do the right thing for the wrong reason and the act becomes meaningless.

Take 1 Cor 13:3,5 for example:

"If I give all I possess to the poor ... , but have not love [agape - a selfless love], I gain nothing. [Why?] [Love] ...is not self-seeking."

In other words to be perfect everything we do, as far as good works are concerned, must be fully free of selfishness & self-seeking.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And you are doing just that...misconstruing Ellen White because she is not just talking of Daniel's nature, but also about his sinful performance:

"The soul thus touched [by God's selflessness'] will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love...."

Hating the principle of "self-love" is not the same as being selfless. I hate the principle of self-love and in my life there's less of self. I'm experience more agape! BUT, the fact is I still have in my life the love of self. I fall short (as did Daniel) of God's self-renouncing love. According to your theology I must be practicing sin.

Rob

Explain what these verses mean:

No! I will not be sidetracked....

You need to show me that you are free of all self-seeking and self-love in your life. Until then, according to your own view of the disciple John's writings, you must be practicing sin.

[Robert]

“The Prince of heaven [Jesus] came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life, a life that would be an example for all human beings. He lived a life free from self-seeking, [how?] wholly given to the service of others.”

[Robert]

“The Prince of heaven [Jesus] came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life, a life that would be an example for all human beings. He lived a life free from self-seeking, [how?] wholly given to the service of others.”

Matt 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles [the politicians] lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them [i.e., they aren't servants of the people - they are self-seeking]. 26 Not so with you. [And the disciples were self-seeking if you look at the context] Instead, whoever wants to become great among you [they wanted to be number 1 - see context] must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first [the greatest] must be your slave — 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

[John317]

You're quoting things we both agree with.

It's what you do with those quotes that is the problem.

Explain what those verses mean to you.

It seems to me that you are right back where you were with those verses a year ago. You appear to think the disagreement is over whether we can be good enough to earn salvation or merit God's love. It is not.

Please go back and read ALL of the chapter "The Test of Discipleship" in Steps To Christ. Is there anything in that chapter you disagree with? I would be willing to wager that there is.

Do you agree with the statement that faith does not release us from keeping the law of God and that it is not faith but presumption that leads men to think that faith releases people from the obligation of obedience to God? (See pages 60, 61.)

[Robert]

It's what you do with those quotes that is the problem....Explain.... Do you agree?

You need to show me that you are free of all self-seeking and self-love in your life before I answer anything!!!!

[Robert]

Romans 3:22...For there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God [His goodness], 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's what you do with those quotes that is the problem....Explain.... Do you agree?

You need to show me that you are free of all self-seeking and self-love in your life before I answer anything!!!!

Talk about legalism.

[John317]

Romans 3:22...For there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God [His goodness], 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...

And?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You need to show me that you are free of all self-seeking and self-love in your life before I answer anything!!!!

Talk about legalism.

Then don't claim to be without sin and act as if you are keeping the whole of the law because I will say, "Show me!"

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Romans 3:22...For there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned [past tense] and fall short [present continuous tense] of the glory of God [His goodness], 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...

And?

And no matter how righteous you might think you are you ain't measuring up. As EGW states, "Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves."

Job learned this: "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth." [Job 40:4] This is the same guy who previously stated, “If I have walked in falsehood or my foot has hurried after deceit— let God weigh me in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless...." [Job 31:5,6]

And Paul, like Job, learned what not to say: "As to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." [Phil 3:6]

You must learn the same! Are you blameless before God's law? Are you living Christ's selfless life? His life fulfilled the law, not just the letter.

Rob

[Robert]

Please go back and read ALL of the chapter "The Test of Discipleship" in Steps To Christ. Is there anything in that chapter you disagree with? I would be willing to wager that there is.

"We [EGW includes herself] have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed...." [EGW]