'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I'm aware of the Ellen White quotes and I do believe them, but I was wondering if you see the Bible clearly teaching the same thing in, say, the book of Romans. I don't believe Romans 2 can justifiably be used that way.

Of course you don't because it is outside your orthodoxy.

Explain how Romans 2 can be seen as teaching what you are saying Ellen White teaches-- that people are saved apart from any proclamation or hearing of the gospel.

And why do you believe this particular teaching by Ellen White when you reject so many other teachings of hers? Is it because you find it agreeable?

(I am not saying I do not believe what Ellen White says. In fact, I do believe it. But what I am saying is that, true as they are, we cannot base our theology of salvation and missions on those statements. We have to base our understanding of salvation and missions on the Bible. That is as Ellen White herself would have it.)

[Robert]

The real issue in the last days is not preaching the gospel to the ignorant (those who do not know God through the Bible), but the folks who think they've got the gospel, but (in reality) "teach another gospel". That is the danger. The false gospels must be exposed.

Case in point:

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

[Robert]

Explain how Romans 2 can be seen as teaching what you are saying Ellen White teaches-- that people are saved apart from any proclamation or hearing of the gospel.

I've already explained this by comparing Romans chapter 1 to 2.

Look at 1 again [those Gentiles who reject God]:

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen [how, by the preaching of the gospel? No,] being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17-- Basically the Bible's view is that the preaching of the gospel is necessary for people's salvation.

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ROBERT-- Which gospel? Do you realize within Adventism there are at least 7 different gospels? Get and read the book by Martin Weber, "Who's got the truth?"

Yes, of course, the details of the gospel are different for many, just as you will have differences among, as well as between, almost all the other denominations.

Do you know one organization where there is the same gospel preached in every detail? It is called the "Jehovah's Witnesses." Even among the Mormon's there is a surprising amount of differences between believers, as you will know if you study them in detail. There are books in their own book stores that go into some of those details.

As for differences among SDAs on the gospel, there is fundamental agreement on the major points of it, even between, say, Graham Maxwell, Desmond Ford and Morris Vendan.

The fact is that not any two people can be expected to see eye to eye on every detail of theology, and that is really what you are referring to. Yes, of course there are differences, even some very important and serious ones that can have significant consequences.

I believe what Ellen White teaches about "the shaking" that is to come to the SDA church, and that, indeed, was already started in Mrs. White's day. There is a reason God allows false doctrines and important differences to enter the church.

However, the gospel I spoke of is the good news of salvation by grace through faith in Christ. It's the same gospel found in Romans, Galatians, Matthew, and John (as well as the rest of the 66). It is summed up in John 3: 16, 17.

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ROBERT-- BTW, the gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of Man and the Son of God. He is truth, the way and the life. That saves. Preaching the gospel is not the Savior. Yes, it's about the Savior, but preaching it doesn't save just like "faith" isn't the Savior.

Good point. It is God who saves. It is the Holy Spirit that applies to our hearts and minds what the preacher says and what we read in the Bible. But the point is that God uses people's words and the Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to bring conviction of the truth to us. There is, as the NT points out numerous times, no salvation outside of the hearing and accepting of this message, nor unless one is born from above. (This is why Paul points out in Romans that no one can call on the Lord unless he first believes, and that cannot happen unless someone preaches to them, and that cannot happen unless someone sends the preacher. Rom. 10: 13, 14.) It is urgent. People can die without the gospel just as people can die without a doctor to help them. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." There is no salvation without personal faith. God hasn't provided any other way.

If He has and you can show it to me in Scripture, I wish you would point it out.

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JOHN317--That is the whole purpose of the gospel commission in Matt. 28: 19, 20 and also the significance of Matt. 24: 14 about the gospel going to all nations before the end comes. It is necessary in order for people to be saved.

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ROBERT--Really? Back to salvation by the preacher - not Christ. Christ has legally saved all men in Himself.

It's not salvation by preacher any more than it's salvation by church, yet God uses His people to communicate the message that brings the offer of salvation to others who are lost and don't know God.

Do you believe that there is any urgency in teaching people the gospel?

Do you believe that there are people who will be lost because Christians did not do their duty or because they neglected to do what God wanted them to do? We might make this very personal and ask if there are people who will be lost because I (or we) failed to do what I should have?

People's eternal lives are hanging in the balance; that is why it is so important for Christians to teach and preach the gospel. If it is not important, and if God will just as well save people whether they hear the gospel or not, then we don't have to be so concerned about preaching the gospel, do we?

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ROBERT-- He doesn't need or depend on you, John. He is bigger than that....

Would you say the same to Peter or Paul when they were planning their missionary journeys? If they had told you they "must" preach, would you have told them, "Oh don't worry. It doesn't depend on you. God is bigger than that"?

Would you say it to the preacher who is praying and working on an evangelistic series? What about to the missionary who is about to fly to some far off outpost? How about if he were going just down the street? Would you say, Don't worry-- it doesn't depend on what you do? Relax, kick back, and have a taco"?

The truth is, yes, God is bigger than that-- yet He chooses to depend on weak men and women to communicate His love and His sacrifice to others. The angels don't do it. People like you and me do it. And yes, Robert, God is depending on us. Just like God depended on Peter and John and Paul and Mary and Martha and Lazarus. That is how big God is: to depend on men of dust.

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JOHN 3:17-- After all, Jesus says no one can enter the kingdom without being born from above and without believing in Him, and then in other verses elsewhere it clearly says that those who call upon the Lord Jesus will be saved.

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So if I don't know Christ through you or some preacher I've had it? This smacks of self-importance and self-righteousness.

We learn from one another. The body of Christ is like that. I would not know anything about God today without about a hundred preachers, teachers, and writers I've known. We all depend on each other and are obligated to one another.

For you to imply that you need no one is really, to my thinking, what smacks of self-importance. I am aware of my indebtedness to preachers and others whom God sent my way, and I'm grateful to Him and to them.

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The real issue in the last days is not preaching the gospel to the ignorant (those who do not know God through the Bible), but the folks who think they've got the gospel, but (in reality) "teach another gospel". That is the danger. The false gospels must be exposed.

[/quote']

I agree that there is a false gospel being preached, and according to the prophet of God, Ellen White, the false gospel is the "gospel" that teaches faith releases us from obedience to God's law. It teaches that there is no relationship whatsoever between what we do and whether we will ultimately be found in God's kingdom. Ellen White says that is presumption. Here it is:

"Those who are teaching this doctrine today [the doctrine that "by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word"] have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. 'I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity."--Signs of the Times, February 25, 1897.

I believe her. I believe the Bible teaches the same thing. You have no trouble accepting some things she says that you like, but for some reason you find this particular teaching of hers a hard pill to swallow. You call it legalism. Do I take your opinion or do I take what the Bible plainly teaches and what God's inspired prophet for these last days also plainly says?

So, then, let's continue to study, discuss, and pray for ourselves and for each other. What do you think?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The real issue in the last days is not preaching the gospel to the ignorant (those who do not know God through the Bible), but the folks who think they've got the gospel, but (in reality) "teach another gospel". That is the danger. The false gospels must be exposed.

Case in point:

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

Yes, I have been studying that passage and others like it for a number of years. You believe I am guilty of teaching a different gospel than the one Paul preached. That is fine. I can only preach what I believe and am convicted is Bible truth. I cannot preach what you or Jack Sequiera or anyone else says is the true gospel, if I am persuaded that it is wrong. And I would not want you to preach or believe any other way than the way you believe is true on the basis of your own study of the Scriptures.

So we dialogue and talk, and hopefully learn something from one another. And hopefully we can show respect and love toward one another despite disagreeing over the love of God for each of us. Just like I hope that my daughters, both of whom I love dearly, can get along, despite their differences.

In awhile I will tell you an interesting story that will help drive this point home.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Explain how Romans 2 can be seen as teaching what you are saying Ellen White teaches-- that people are saved apart from any proclamation or hearing of the gospel.

I've already explained this by comparing Romans chapter 1 to 2.

Look at 1 again [those Gentiles who reject God]:

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen [how, by the preaching of the gospel? No,] being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Now all you need to do is show Scriptural, not Jack Sequeira's, evidence, that this knowledge about God which Paul refers to is saving knowledge. For, of course, all knowledge about God is not saving knowledge-- that is, is not the kind of knowledge that leads to faith in Him--, is it? If it is always the sort of knowledge by which a man may be saved, where does the Bible teach this?

Where does the Bible teach that this knowledge obtained from nature leads people to salvation, totally apart from the teaching and preaching of the gospel of Christ?

[Robert]

I believe her.

[Robert]

all knowledge about God is not saving knowledge

Whatever, John. Do you think you deserve heaven over other folks? I don't think so. Even EGW tells us that many babies, who died before they could accept Christ, will be in heaven.

The evidence is clear, but you chose to hit the ignore key. You can lead a horse to water, but....

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

My personal experience on CA has been that name calling is allowed. But if there is a rule against it ... I am all for it and enforcement.

I don't consider "rascal" name calling, but that's not my call.

Rob

Rob. It's largely based upon emotion. The policies (unwritten) have a wide range. It is called common sense. This is so that the mood of those editing can be accomodated and that new rules can be enforced depending upon the way the winds blow. This is why I have encouraged written rules that are uniformly enforced.

[Woody]

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Do you believe that there is any urgency in teaching people the gospel?

Do you believe that there are people who will be lost because Christians did not do their duty or because they neglected to do what God wanted them to do?

If I may jump in here for I think this is one thing that is misunderstood by many. First of all let me point out as Mrs.White does .... God's purposes know no haste and no delay. So, is there an urgency? NO.

"Do you believe that there are people who will be lost because Christians did not do their duty" Clearly NO. For if you answer yes ... then it would be salvation by men ... not God. The duty of GOD is to show HIS love to sinners. He will use us. But no one is dependent upon us for salvation. Yes, we can be used by God. But in the end ... it is God who will find the ways to reach sinners. God knows the heart. He will judge based on this ... not whether some "Christians did not do their duty or because they neglected to do what God wanted them to do".

Christ could come at any second because He knows the heart. He does not have to wait for us to do our duty. He in His wisdom will decide when the Great Controversy has been completed and is ready for review. However .... His purpose can have no haste and no delay.

[Woody]

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If it is not important, and if God will just as well save people whether they hear the gospel or not, then we don't have to be so concerned about preaching the gospel, do we?

I would not begin to limit God in this way. For He IS able to save those who have not heard the gospel and He will. But the Gospel IS the Good News and it is our duty to share this with as many as we can. The Good News is for the benefit of all for not only in the life to come ... but in our current life. It is the best life for here and now and later. We are to share it will all we can. But some have not heard it and to limit God by saying he can't save those who have not heard ... is something I would not do. Again ... God knows our heart. And that is the most important.

[Woody]

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I believe in Christ. I believe He can save folks as revealed through nature. I believe that a measure of faith is given to all men. I believe that all men are enlightened with God's Spirit and those who responded will ultimately be saved.

Wow! Isn't this so true. Amen. Thank you for putting it this way Robert.

[Woody]

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It is a fact that EGW taught legalism. The question is did she do it because she was misguided and of the devil or did she use it (as Christ did) to break folks of their self-righteousness? That is what the OC was designed to do...i.e., to load the legalists down with so many rules that they would give up and accept grace.

My opinion is that she just grew like all of us. And most babes in Christ start off with legalism. Legalism is mostly for babies. Some grow beyond it and some just never grow up at all.

If you look at her writings ... you will see that she did indeed grow in Christ and much of her later writings were a great blessing because she had left her legalism behind in the cradle.

[Woody]

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Whatever, John. Do you think you deserve heaven over other folks? I don't think so. Even EGW tells us that many babies, who died before they could accept Christ, will be in heaven.

This is the winning point. How true. We are not saved by the preachers .... we are saved by the love of God.

[melvin mccarty]

Here is what CA discussions prove to me. They prove that persons who wrote the material which has been compiled into "Scripture" did not and do not all agree. I think it is not neccesary that we try to force them all into the same mold. If we could allow thase people to be human it would go a long way toward helping us to all be "one" which was the ideal which Christ talked about.

mel

[Woody]

Great thoughts Mel. We are united by the love of God ... not the unity of knowledge. We for sure do not have to have all the same understanding of scripture. But we can be united by His Love for us.

Love Won Another

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: John317

all knowledge about God is not saving knowledge

Whatever, John. Do you think you deserve heaven over other folks? I don't think so. Even EGW tells us that many babies, who died before they could accept Christ, will be in heaven.

The evidence is clear, but you chose to hit the ignore key. You can lead a horse to water, but....

-PC- YI

-PT- The Youth's Instructor

-DT- 04-01-58

-AT- Bereavement

-PR- 03

As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads.

[Gerr]

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The real issue in the last days is not preaching the gospel to the ignorant (those who do not know God through the Bible), but the folks who think they've got the gospel, but (in reality) "teach another gospel". That is the danger. The false gospels must be exposed.

That's why I am working hard to expose your bogus gospel of righteousness by self-deprivation!

Gerry

[Gerr]

quote]

It is a fact that EGW taught legalism. The question is did she do it because she was misguided and of the devil or did she use it (as Christ did) to break folks of their self-righteousness? That is what the OC was designed to do...i.e., to load the legalists down with so many rules that they would give up and accept grace.

Rob

Hmmmmmm. She taught legalism?

"Righteousness is holiness, likeness to God, and 'God is love.' 1 Jn 4:16. It is conformity to the law of God, for 'all Thy commandments are righteousness' (Ps 119:172), and 'love is the fulfilling of the law' (Rom 13:10). Righteousness is love, and love is the light and the life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ. WE RECEIVE RIGHTEOUSNESS BY RECEIVING HIM."

"Not by painful struggles or wearisome toil, not by gift or sacrifice, is righteousness obtained; but it is FREELY given to every soul who hungers and thirsts to receive it." MB 18

"Grace is unmerited favor, and the believer is justified without any merit of his own, without any claim to offer to God. He is justified through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, who stands in the courts of heaven as the sinner's substitute and surety. But while he is justified because of the merit of Christ he is not free to work unrighteousness. Faith works by love and purifies the soul. Faith buds and blossoms and bears a harvest of previous fruit. Where faith is, good works appear." 1 SM 398.

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is aceepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness; and the pardone soul goes on from grace to grace, from light to a greater light. He can say with rejoicing, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the ashing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Gohost, which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:5-7). 1SM 367.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Whatever, John. Do you think you deserve heaven over other folks? I don't think so. Even EGW tells us that many babies, who died before they could accept Christ, will be in heaven.

This is the winning point. How true. We are not saved by the preachers .... we are saved by the love of God.

"...it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."1 Cor 1:21 KJV

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

It is a fact that EGW taught legalism. The question is did she do it because she was misguided and of the devil or did she use it (as Christ did) to break folks of their self-righteousness? That is what the OC was designed to do...i.e., to load the legalists down with so many rules that they would give up and accept grace.

My opinion is that she just grew like all of us. And most babes in Christ start off with legalism. Legalism is mostly for babies. Some grow beyond it and some just never grow up at all.

If you look at her writings ... you will see that she did indeed grow in Christ and much of her later writings were a great blessing because she had left her legalism behind in the cradle.

I am quite certain that she did grow in her knowledge and understanding. But I would hardly believe that if God sent messages to the church through her that the messages would start out steeped in legalism. From one of her earliest books are these:

"Nothing but the death and intercessions of His Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery." SR 45

"The angels of God were commissioned to visit the fallen pair and inform them that although they could no longer retain possession of their holy estate, their Eden home, because of their transgression of the law of God, yet their case was not altogether hopeless. They were then informed that the Son of God, who had conversed with them in Eden, had been moved with pity as He viewed their hopeless condition, and had volunteered to take upon Himself the punishment due to them, and die for them that man might yet live, through faith in the atonement Christ proposed to make for him. Through Christ a door of hope was opened, that man, notwithstanding his great sin should not be under the absolute control of Satan. Faith in the merits of the Son of God would so elevate man that he could resist the devices of Satan." SR 47.

Gerry

[Robert]

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The real issue in the last days is not preaching the gospel to the ignorant (those who do not know God through the Bible), but the folks who think they've got the gospel, but (in reality) "teach another gospel". That is the danger. The false gospels must be exposed.

That's why I am working hard to expose your bogus gospel of righteousness by self-deprivation!

Gerry

No...that's not the gospel! What I give you is law...the spirit of the law so as to get you to accept grace, but you insist that you are righteous. Clearly self-love does not come the Father, but is the invention of Lucifer. Lucky for you God can save you even in your love of self, but He cannot save the self-righteous.

[Robert]

Quote:

It is a fact that EGW taught legalism. The question is did she do it because she was misguided and of the devil or did she use it (as Christ did) to break folks of their self-righteousness ? That is what the OC was designed to do...i.e., to load the legalists down with so many rules that they would give up and accept grace.

Rob

Hmmmmmm. She taught legalism?

Yes, but not because she was misguided, but in order to break legalists of their self-righteous ways. Christ did the same!

Try reading what I say, Gerry.

[Woody]

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Lucky for you God can save you even in your love of self

This is good news.

[Robert]

...not because she was misguided, but in order to break legalists of their self-righteous ways. Christ did the same!

Let's look at Romans 3:9 [Paul asks] What then? are we [Jews] better than they [the Gentiles]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [etc, etc. Now the conclusion:]

19 Now we know [know what?] that what things soever the law saith [it says there is none righteous], it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped [shut], and all the world [the entire human race] may become guilty before God. [Why?] 20 Because by the works of the law [our law performance] there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: [why?] for by the law is the knowledge of sin .

Now here's the problem: How can God convince a bunch of egocentric, know-it-all human being that they are completely void of any true righteousness? By giving and expanding upon the law! In other words the best way to shut a legalist's mouth is to load him down with rules he can't possibly keep. That's why God gave the Old Covenant.