'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Woody]

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If a Christian is completely devoted to God and is living up to all the knowledge of the truth that he knows about, then at that stage in his Christian experience, in the Biblical sense, he is perfect, or mature. That doesn't mean he has no more growing or changing to do or that he is without sin.

Thanks for explaining your view on this issue John.

But, when I look at this I have to wonder how anyone would qualify. I've never met any mature Christians under your definition. I sure would not qualify. I've never met nor do I know of anyone who is "living up to what they know".

Personally I fail to live up to what I know. And if I knew more .... that would just mean more failure. And like I say ... I know of no one who lives up to what they know. Are you willing to say that you personally live up to what you know?

[John317]

[ I do have to admit that the general tone of what I hear from you two does bring me concern though.

Anyway .... I do enjoy reading the diversity of emphasis on this issue. I think it is healthy to have and to share differences.

Yeah me too. I love it.

OK, what about this general tone you speak of, and if you could point to one thing or maybe two things that bring you the greatest concern(s), what would it be?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

That we can agree on. But thank God' date=' those in whom He & His Spirit dwell, are being transformed into His likeness! That is the promise of the Gospel! [/quote']

Are you perfectly reflecting God's agape now? If not when in the future?

You are a legalist because you are depending on what God does in you (if it's God and not your own flesh) for your ticket to heaven.

That I am totally dependent on God's power working in me, you are absolutely right. But to say that that is where I find assurance for my salvation is absolutely erroneous!

Gerry

[John317]

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Venden says, “we can conclude that it is possible to have a relationship with God going on and to have a known sin going on in your life at the same time.” (How Jesus Treated People. p. 46.)

Of course, we can have a "relationship" with God while we have a known sin going on in our life. I did it for years. But what kind of relationship?

God doesn't abandon us because we sin. But the time will come if we keep on deliberately sinning when God will abandon us. God will abandon sinners to their sin if they persist in having their own way.

But I agree with Morris Venden (at least I think that's who the author was) that we can have a relationship with God going on and have a known sin going on in our life. What is God doing in that relationship? He is convicting us of sin and urging us to give it up.

And if we don't give it up and if we persist in doing it, we will eventually not have a very good relationship with God. We have a good relationship with people we are not hurting and betraying. IT IS LIKE A MAN OR WOMAN CANNOT HAVE A GOOD HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP WITH THEIR SPOUSE IF THEY ARE CHEATING ON THEM. THEIR CHEATING WILL CAUSE THEM TO FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT THEIR SPOUSE. This is the same as it is with us when we are not being honest and loyal to God. It affects our relationship with God.

Remember what the book of Leviticus is all about: "You shall be holy, for I [God] am holy." And, "I am the God who sanctifies you," that is, makes you holy. Why? Because He wants to have a relationship with us, and He really can't have the kind of relationship He wants to have if we are not "holy," meaning being separate from sin. That is a big reason for the Sabbath. It is a sign that God is sanctifying us. It is holy time for a holy people. Only a holy people can keep the Sabbath holy. It's all about relationship with God.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I know many Christians who are not rich. In fact some Christians live in poverty. So what about them?[/quote']

They're waiting for you to give them you possessions!

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Gerry...you're just one of those prosperity nuts. You can glory in your flesh and say God's blessing me - look at all my goodies. You sound like the rich young ruler and you know what Christ told him pertaining to perfection.

Well, can't you see why we attract each other? You are a poverty nut [but clinging to your possessions] and I'm a prosperity nut [but really don't know if my retirement will be enough]?

Gerry

Give it ALL to Jesus Gerry. Give it ALL to Jesus.

Yes, I've dedicated my all to Jesus. And someday, He may ask me to sell my house too. For now, my Jesus asks only for 10% of my income plus a liberal offering, and also 1/7th of my time plus service time for others as well.

"For the Scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,' and, 'the laborer is worthy of his wages.' 1 Tim 5:18 NKJ.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Or did you mean by quoting, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself", none of us are doing doing it since by your definition owning anything is selfishness and therefore a practice of sin, that God will let us all in in spite of practicing sin? Is that your answer?Gerry

Individually believers grow, but growth is not perfection. Perfection is Christ's life. Here we fall short. I'm sorry you are unable to comprehend this...

And obviously, you can't seem to comprehend the fact that as it applies to fallen human beings who believe in Jesus, perfection is not used in the sense of "perfection" as in there is no more room for improvement, that it means "maturity", being all a believer can be at each stage in their spiritual journey.

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to PERFECTION, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment." Heb 6:1,2 NKJ.

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Are you perfectly reflecting God's agape now? If not when in the future?

You are a legalist because you are depending on what God does in you (if it's God and not your own flesh) for your ticket to heaven. [/quote']

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That I am totally dependent on God's power working in me, you are absolutely right. But to say that that is where I find assurance for my salvation is absolutely erroneous!

Robert, what is the difference between works of the law and works of faith?

Second, were the children Israel depending on their obedience to get out of Israel? No. Yet there were certain things they had to do or they wouldn't have gotten out.

Were the children of Israel depending on their works or obedience to get into the Promised Land? Again no.

Yet they didn't get into the Promised Land because they were not obedience.

That is the same with us. WE don't depend on our works or obedience in order to get into the Promised Land. Yet at the same time, as Hebrews 3 and 4 tell us, we sure won't get into the Promised Land without faith and obedience.

It's like Ellen White said, Our works don't save us but we won't be saved without works of faith either. The works didn't save Israel but without the works of faith they wouldn't have gotten out of Israel or out of the wilderness. Make sense? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

(The secret here is to know the difference between works of faith and works of the law. Jesus did works of faith. Saul of Tarsus did works of the law.)

[Robert]

If a Christian is completely devoted to God and is living up to all the knowledge of the truth that he knows about, then at that stage in his Christian experience, in the Biblical sense, he is perfect.....

No, he is imperfect! We are only perfect "in Christ"!

[Robert]

Well, can't you see why we attract each other? You are a poverty nut [but clinging to your possessions]

[Gerr]

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You are a legalist because you are depending on what God does in you (if it's God and not your own flesh) for your ticket to heaven.

I've never heard it put this way but I have to agree. IF we depend upon anything else other than what JESUS did ON this earth .... then we are legalists depending upon works of the law to get us to heaven.

Jesus lived and died 2k yrs ago, but He AROSE from the grave. What the living Christ does in the believer here and now, is proof, the evidence that one has accepted what He did 2k yrs ago. Without it, such claim is a lie. The apostles John and James, and Paul, and Jesus and the rest of the Bible agree.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Well, can't you see why we attract each other? You are a poverty nut [but clinging to your possessions]

Not a poverty nut at all, but wondering how you can live selflessly, in this world, and still have a roof over your head.

"I know that nothing is better for them than to rejoice, and to do good in their lives, and also that every man should eat and drink and enjoy the good of all his labor - IT IS THE GIFT OF God." Eccl 3:12,13 NKJ.

"For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 NKJ

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and I'm a prosperity nut

Gerry

But as it relates to the OC. In other words your view must be in agreement with the OC, which states that if you are obedient to the law God will bless you, including wealth.

Prosperity is Old Covenant? Is the Apostle John old covenant?

"Beloved, I pray that you may PROSPER IN ALL THINGS and be in health, just as your sould PROSPERS." 3 Jn 2

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What do you do with those Christians who are poor?

They are waiting for you to give them what you have!

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If a Christian is completely devoted to God and is living up to all the knowledge of the truth that he knows about, then at that stage in his Christian experience, in the Biblical sense, he is perfect.....

No, he is imperfect! We are only perfect "in Christ"!

I have a choice here, whether to believe your opinion or to believe the Bible and a woman to whom God showed thousands of visions and dreams and whom Jesus called as his messenger. No contest.

See James 3: 2; Genesis 6: 9; Job 1: 1; Luke 1: 6. The Bible calls Noah "perfect," and Hebrews 6:1 tell us, "let us go on to perfection." Matt. 5: 49 says, "Therefore you be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." John 17: 23 says Christians "may be made perfect in one." Etc. Etc.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Silly me, for asking, but – if Seventh-day Sabbath-keeping is incumbent upon the Xtian today – why did not

Jesus Christ, the Apostles, or the Jerusalem Council – command it – or, even reiterate it? After all, we do have our being in

the New Testament/Covenant - do we not? the Old having been abrogated...

edited

So, is Seventh-day keeping unBiblical? of course not.

[Woody]

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"Christ was drawn to this young man. He knew him to be sincere in his assertion, "All these things have I kept from my youth." The Redeemer longed to create in him that discernment which would enable him to see the necessity of heart devotion and Christian goodness. He longed to see in him a humble and contrite heart, conscious of the supreme love to be given to God, and hiding its lack in the perfection of Christ." DA 519

[Woody]

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"Every attempt to take advantage of the ignorance, weakness, or misfortune of another is registered as fraud in the ledger of heaven. He who truly fears God, would rather toil day and night, and eat the bread of poverty, than to indulge the passion for gain that oppresses the widow and fatherless or turns the stranger from his right." PK 651

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"We were all debtors to divine justice, but we had nothing with which to pay the debt. Then the Son of God, who pitied us, paid the price of our redemption. He became poor that through His poverty we might be rich. By deeds of liberality toward His poor we may prove the sincerity of our gratitude for the mercy extended to us." PK 652

[John317]

QR frame:

Silly me, for asking, but – if Seventh-day Sabbath-keeping is incumbent upon the Xtian today – why did not

Jesus Christ, the Apostles, or the Jerusalem Council – command it – or, even reiterate it? After all, we do have our being in

the New Testament/Covenant - do we not? the old having been abrogated...

No, not silly at all.

Ask and answer these few questions, for starters:

1) When was the New Covenant ratified?

2) Was the Sabbath commandment valid in Jesus day?

3) When did Sunday become a part of the New Covenant?

4) Did Christians keep the Sabbath after Christ's death and ascension?

[John317]

Quote:

"Every attempt to take advantage of the ignorance, weakness, or misfortune of another is registered as fraud in the ledger of heaven. He who truly fears God, would rather toil day and night, and eat the bread of poverty, than to indulge the passion for gain that oppresses the widow and fatherless or turns the stranger from his right." PK 651

Quote:

"We were all debtors to divine justice, but we had nothing with which to pay the debt. Then the Son of God, who pitied us, paid the price of our redemption. He became poor that through His poverty we might be rich. By deeds of liberality toward His poor we may prove the sincerity of our gratitude for the mercy extended to us." PK 652

You want to comment on those quotes? What do you make of them in terms of what we've been talking about here. How are you understanding and applying them to what has been said so far about the meaning of "perfection"?

[Woody]

Sorry. We are moving so fast . This was in response to Robert and Gerry's comment about giving to the poor just a couple hours ago.

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Well, can't you see why we attract each other? You are a poverty nut [but clinging to your possessions] and I'm a prosperity nut [but really don't know if my retirement will be enough]?

Gerry

[jasd]

It may, possibly, be of interest that: hermeneutically, the greater part of Xtianity holds-to an antitypical/typical interpretation of the Ark of the Testament in the Temple, as it is noted in the book of Revelation; that is,

the Old Testamental [antitype] Ark of the Covenant prefigured St Mary as its type – in that, it held and encompassed the written word of Gd/ Jeus Christ, the Word; Aaron’s rod, symbol of the High Priesthood/ Jesus Christ, our High Priest; and manna as bread/our Bread of Life, Jesus Christ.

Simple dogma? or truth?

[jasd]

>>1) When was the New Covenant ratified?<<

Upon the death of its testator...

>>2) Was the Sabbath commandment valid in Jesus day?<<

Insofar as it was part of the general economy and the economy of law-keeping, per se.

>>3) When did Sunday become a part of the New Covenant?<<

Upon its recognition, observance, and sanctification - as The Lord’s Day.

>>4) Did Christians keep the Sabbath after Christ's death and ascension?<<

Yes.

[Robert]

What do you do with those Christians who are poor?

Yes?

[Robert]

It is a sign that God is sanctifying us.

Ex 31:12 And the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the people of Israel, ‘You shall keep my sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. [RSV]

There's a problem with your understanding here. The Sabbath, whether creation, redemption or a new creation (i.e., the new earth) ALWAYS points to a finished work. Always!

Sanctification - growth, is always ongoing and incomplete. As EGW states we will never attain to perfection this side of eternity. And John states that we can't say that we are without sin. Therefore, sanctification can't point to a finished and complete work until we are raised incorruptible. Then, in the new earth, all will come before God every Sabbath as a sign of His perfect work of re-creation.

But right now that's not the case. And since sanctification is always incomplete and ongoing, the Sabbath as tied to sanctification has been misunderstood.

Now look at what God said again: "I, the Lord, sanctify you." This means to set you apart. How have we been set apart? Hebrews chapter ten makes it clear:

Verse 10: "By this will [Christ's doing & dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

The NIV makes it even clearer:

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

"In Chirst" we have been set apart. In Him we are 100% righteous. It is a finished work.

[Robert]

Now look at what God said again: "I, the Lord, sanctify you." This means to set you apart. How have we been set apart? Hebrews chapter ten makes it clear:

Verse 10: "By this will [Christ's doing & dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

So, we see that Sabbath keeping always points to a finished & complete work!

The Sabbath is always God's 7th day. I don't question that, but the meaning we acknowledge it changes depending where we are in time.

For example, at creation it stood for a perfect and sinless creation. This is untrue now and therefore keeping it as it points to a finished work is a contradiction and legalistic.

The Sabbath as it points to redemption is where we are now. "In Christ" we stand perfect and the Sabbath points to the fact that on the 7th day God rested from His perfect work of redemption "in Christ". This will be the issue in the last days. Are we complete in Christ? Yes, the Sabbath will be an outward sign that we agree with the gospel. Are we incomplete "in Christ" and therefore must improve on what God did "in Christ"? Then in the future Sunday will become a sign of legalism and self-righteousness.

But don't kid yourself...keeping Sabbath as an unfinished work is about the same as keeping Sunday. So, you can be a SDA worshiping on the Sabbath and yet belong to Babylon.

Now, when we receive our sinless lives at the resurrection the reason we acknowledge it will once again change. At that point we have been re-created in His image. At that time it will be a finished and complete work. Until then the only valid reason for Sabbath, NC, NT observance is tied to the gospel.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It is a sign that God is sanctifying us.

Ex 31:12 And the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the people of Israel, ‘You shall keep my sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. [RSV]

Notice that the word "sanctify" is ongoing. God does not say here, "I sanctified you," but rather "I am sanctifying you" for an end result. Check out the NIV and NASB.

The Hebrew is a verbal adjective in the active voice, the Piel Participle [pipt], indicating continued action to bring about a result or fact. Ezekiel also contains a Piel Participle: "I am the Lord who sanctifies them."

Warning: you may see some translations that translate it as if it is "I sanctified you," but it is not. "Sanctfy" is present, continued action. That is, God continually sets us apart for Himself, because it is not a once in a life-time event but must be done continually.

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There's a problem with your understanding here. The Sabbath, whether creation, redemption or a new creation (i.e., the new earth) ALWAYS points to a finished work. Always!

Sanctification - growth, is always ongoing and incomplete.

Good point: two kinds of sanctification spoken of in the Bible: one already done the moment we come to Christ, and the other whereby we grow in grace as we walk each day in the Spirit. Both kinds of sanctification are necessary.

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As EGW states we will never attain to perfection this side of eternity. And John states that we can't say that we are without sin. Therefore, sanctification can't point to a finished and complete work until we are raised incorruptible. Then, in the new earth, all will come before God every Sabbath as a sign of His perfect work of re-creation.

But right now that's not the case. And since sanctification is always incomplete and ongoing, the Sabbath as tied to sanctification has been misunderstood.

Now look at what God said again: "I, the Lord, sanctify you." This means to set you apart. How have we been set apart? Hebrews chapter ten makes it clear:

Verse 10: "By this will [Christ's doing & dying) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

The NIV makes it even clearer:

"And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

"In Chirst" we have been set apart. In Him we are 100% righteous. It is a finished work.

Ok, those are some good points, but why don't you also quote Hebrews 2: 11? It shows that there is also a process of sanctification that is ongoing in the Christian's life, speaking of those "who are are being sanctified." We can't say, biblically, then, that all sanctification is a finished work. Christians are set apart for Christ's work the moment they put faith in Christ, but there is then the process whereby the Spirit works in our lives to make us in actuality what God has declared us to be.

For instance, when a smoker comes to Christ, God declares him righteous, as if he is not smoking. At that moment he is set apart for the worship and service of God.

But God does something even more amazing. He sends the Spirit to live in that man and give him the power to stop smoking. When a man who likes pornography comes to Christ, He is declared righteous. He has in his account all the righteousness of Christ. But then he also has the Spirit who gives him the power to reject the pornography and live a pure life for God. That is a part of the process of sanctification.

I agree with much that you've said, but I can't agree with the following:

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The Sabbath, whether creation, redemption or a new creation (i.e., the new earth) ALWAYS points to a finished work. Always!

Sanctification - growth, is always ongoing and incomplete. As EGW states we will never attain to perfection this side of eternity. And John states that we can't say that we are without sin. Therefore, sanctification can't point to a finished and complete work until we are raised incorruptible. Then, in the new earth, all will come before God every Sabbath as a sign of His perfect work of re-creation.

But right now that's not the case. And since sanctification is always incomplete and ongoing, the Sabbath as tied to sanctification has been misunderstood.

1) The Sabbath reminds us of the fact that God originally made the world perfect and that He will again have a perfect world in which He is inviting us to live with Him throughout all eternity. So, yes, while the Sabbath points to two perfect worlds-- or "rests" (Heb. 3 and 4)-- it does not lose all meaning simply because we live in an imperfect world BETWEEN those perfect worlds. It is still a pointer or reminder of God's rest in the past which He called us to participate in and of God's rest in the future, to which we are also summoned. In BETWEEN those two perfect "rests," we have the "rest" in Jesus, which won't be fulfilled or fully realized until Christ's return. Until then, the Sabbath is weekly reminder of the sabbath of rest we will experience in heaven and in an Eden restored.

2) Since the Sabbath will be sign of a completed and perfect sanctification in the future, does that mean the Sabbath cannot be a sign of an on-going process of sanctification in the present?

3) There are at least two kinds of sanctification spoken of in the Bible as regards people: a) the sanctification that takes place instantaneously, as you've already mentioned; and the sanctification that is in process. It goes on every day of our lives, as we gain more knowledge and faith, and as we become more conformed by God's grace and Spirit to the lovely character of Christ. I've already referred to Hebrews 2: 11.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17-->>1) When was the New Covenant ratified?

<<

You're right, the New Covenant was ratified when Jesus shed his life's blood for us on calvary.

A follow-up question, then: Can a covenant, once ratified, undergo change or be added to?

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JOHN3:17-- >>2) Was the Sabbath commandment valid in Jesus day?<<

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JASD-- Insofar as it was part of the general economy and the economy of law-keeping, per se.

It was a part of God's plan for the people to keep the Sabbath from the time of the Exodus down to the time of Christ. Do you believe this?

Part of the evidence:

Check out Jer.17: 19-27; and then compare 2 Chron. 36: 19; 7: 19 and Daniel 1: 1,2. These verses show that God had Jerusalem destroyed and the people taken into exile because of the desecration of the weekly Sabbath. Daniel was taken into Babylonian exile because his people refused to obey God. The Sabbath was certainly still in effect in Jesus' day. He was the Creator, the One who made the Sabbath, and he kept it just as He intended all humans to keep it. See Luke 4: 16 and compare with John 14: 10. Jesus would have needed a Savior himself if he had broken his Father's commandments, because sin is the violation of God's moral law, and of course the Sabbath is part of the moral law.

Of course you'll let me know if you either don't understand or are not persuaded of something said.

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JOHN 3:17--- >>3) When did Sunday become a part of the New Covenant?<<

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JASD--- Upon its recognition, observance, and sanctification - as The Lord’s Day.

When do you believe that occurred? What is the earliest time in history that the Christians claimed that Sunday was a celebration of the Lord's resurrection? When was Sunday first called "the Lord's day"?

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JOHN 3:17--- >>4) Did Christians keep the Sabbath after Christ's death and ascension?<<

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JASD--- Yes.

Question #4 and your answer, which I believe is correct, show that the Sabbath was still being kept by Christians after the beginning of the New Covenant. That is, the Sabbath was being still kept by Jesus' followers after His death and ascension.

Now Question 5:

Is there any evidence that Sunday sacredness was instituted at any time before Christ was crucified?