'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Robert]

Why did circumcision become so important as a sign that those who refused it would be "cutoff" from God's people? You might need to re-read what I have posted again because the answer is contained therein.

John, do you know?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

... We are saved without the Sabbath unless God through His Holy Spirit convicted you that the Sabbath was something you needed to do. If you were to openly rebel against God by saying ... "Oh I know that you want me to keep the Sabbath God ... but I am saved ... so I just don't care. I want to do what I want"

Now if that was said then there might be trouble with your salvation. But the point is that no one can outwardly judge that.

And wouldn't the same be true if I say... "Oh I know that you want me to stop such and such... but I just don't care. I will go ahead and do what I want anyway"?

The point is that NO one will know what God is individually asking someone else to do. IT may be different for each person. God does not bring the Sabbath question to each person. So while the answer is yes ... it cannot be judged by anyone looking at someone else.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Why did circumcision become so important as a sign that those who refused it would be "cutoff" from God's people?

Two years later, chapter 16 of Genesis, Sarah comes to Abraham, “Yes, you are depending on God, but I think what God expects is for you to do your part. And since you, Abraham, cannot produce a child through me, I will give you permission to go to my slave woman, and produce a child.”

So Abraham says to God, “Here is your promised son.”

And God says, “Nothing doing.”

Do you know how long God waited after that? Fourteen more years. Abraham is 99 years old — that’s 14 years later. The the Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son.”

When did Sara have a child? After she had past the age of child bearing. So God waited until it was medically and scientifically impossible for both Sarah & Abraham to help God produce the child of promise as they thought to do concerning Ishmael.

When Abram was 99 years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless....”

Blameless in performance, or blameless in faith? That’s the issue. Righteousness, whether imputed or imparted, is God’s part. My part, from beginning to end, is faith. God is saying to Abraham, “Your faith has not been matured, it has not yet reached perfection. I want you to be perfect in your faith.”

Abraham said, “What must I do to be perfect?”

“I want you to be circumcised. Remove all doubt. Remove unbelief.” That’s the meaning of circumcision. And so in verse 9, 10, and 11, God gave him the covenant of circumcision, as a token. You’ll find that word, “token” (or “sign”) in verse 10. Genesis 17:10-11:

This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign [the King James version uses the word “token”] of the covenent between me and you.

Why the removal of the foreskin? Because it was this tool (if you will) that Abraham used to help God. It was an act of unbelief. That's why God came up with circumcision.

Now what does this sign have to do with the sign of the Sabbath?

[Woody]

This is good Robert. Thank you. It helps me to better understand.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

And wouldn't the same be true if I say... "Oh I know that you want me to stop such and such... but I just don't care. I will go ahead and do what I want anyway"?

The point is that NO one will know what God is individually asking someone else to do. IT may be different for each person. God does not bring the Sabbath question to each person. So while the answer is yes ... it cannot be judged by anyone looking at someone else.

Let's say a person wants to smoke marijuana. Let's say he comes to church on Sabbath smelling of marijuana and maybe even goes outside the church after Sabbath school to take a "marijuana break." And maybe you don't say anything to him but he sees your astonishment at what he is doing. So he explains, "I know what you're thinking. And I know God doesn't want me to smoke marijuana during church, but I don't care. I'm going to go ahead and do what I want anyway. It's just between me and God, so don't say a word to me about it."

Or let's say you go to an Adventist's home and you find a pile of pornographic magazines in his/her living room. He sees you looking at the pile in some surprise, and says, "Oh yeah, I've never been able to stop that habit. Actually I don't want to stop it. I know God doesn't want me to have them in my house, but he will just have to forgive me for this if he wants me in heaven, because I love it and I don't intend to stop it. Besides, I know I'm saved."

[Woody]

Not sure what your point is John. But, I do know one thing. It is not my job to decide if he is saved or not saved. We as SDAs just love to get in the position of Judge. But GOD is the judge. So, it just ain't our business.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Why did circumcision become so important as a sign that those who refused it would be "cutoff" from God's people? You might need to re-read what I have posted again because the answer is contained therein.

John, do you know?

Deja vu, Robert. Remember "the Law" thread? I have very clear memories of discussing this very thing before with you on several different occasions.

[John317]

Not sure what your point is John. But, I do know one thing. It is not my job to decide if he is saved or not saved. We as SDAs just love to get in the position of Judge. But GOD is the judge. So, it just ain't our business.

Let's say I'm an Adventist pastor preparing to baptize someone and accept them into fellowship in the SDA church. Just before I'm scheduled to baptize this person, I go out to his car where he is sitting, and I find him smoking a marijuana joint and looking at pornography. Should I go ahead with the baptism at this point? Should I say anything to him about what he is doing? Or should I just ignore what I see and assume that the Lord will take care of it?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

The translations you referred to are all excellent translations (despite what you may hear some or perhaps many say about the KJV), and I believe that by studying and obeying what God has said in any single one of them, a person can be brought to the truth as it is in Jesus and be saved in God's eternal kingdom.

And therein is the problem. It's salvation by Bible study or salvation by knowledge. This still smacks of legalism.

Legalism to be saved by knowing Jesus? Wow! How else can one get saved?

"You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free!"

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

I am just following Christ. When the self-righteous came at Him in gave them law. Here's a perfect example:

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

And can you find one verse that promises life to the one who practises sin? Feel free to use the OT or NT, OC or NC.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Again, under the NC faith fulfills the first half of the moral law under grace. Look at 1 John 3:23

"And this is His commandment,

1] that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ,

2] and love one another...."

In Gal 5:14 Paul states that, "the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” He didn't say the whole law is fulfilled when you keep all ten.

Again, that's because under grace faith takes place of the first four commandments. We are no longer "under the law" - we are under grace and any reflection of "agape" in the life of the believer will be in harmony with the last six commandments of the moral law.

Rob

According to the Apostle James, you break one of the 10, you've broken them ALL!!! Soooooo, to be considered as keeping the other 6, you have to be keeping the first four as well, or vice versa.

Gerry

[Guest truthseeker007]

I dont know if the sabbath is necessary in order to be saved, but there are two good reasons to keep it. 1. We love the lord. 2 it s a blessing.

It also reminds us of our creator.

I think that the sabbath will be an urgent message when calamities break out and demons convince the people they should keep sunday holy. The calamities will be so severe that they ll go along with it and everybody who refuses to join church on sunday will be seen as the enemy of this world and won t be able to buy and sell anymore.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: truthseeker007

"In Gal 5:14 Paul states that, "the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” He didn't say the whole law is fulfilled when you keep all ten."

Actully you need to read Paul just as it reads.

Hmmmmmmmm. Interesting advice. And I would say, "AMEN" to that. And this is how Paul reads.

"But fornication and ALL uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that NO fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them." Eph 5:3-7 NKJ.

You claim that a believer is guilty of selfishness by owning things, which you consider to be sin. As far as I know you have made no move to divest yourself of your possessions, so it appears that you are practicing this sin of selfishness, yet you continue to claim salvation. How do you square that with what Paul is plainly saying?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

You know, in my thinking, if God really wanted us to understand everything in detail He should of come up with another way to get the messages across, but I have faith He knows what He is doing. Nevertheless, this has always puzzled me why He communicates as He does. There's just too much room for error.

Maybe we aren't required to know it all? Maybe that's why Paul said, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully...."

Now you have hit on some truth in my eyes. This is why I keep saying that "knowledge" is not all that important beyond the clear message of the Gospel's Good News that Jesus did and died.

The rest is gravy.

"For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge." Rom 10:2 NIV

"And you shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make you free." Jn 8:32 NKJ

"But also for this very reason, giving ALL diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins." 2 Pe 1:5-9 NKJ

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

And SDA for too long have pounded folks with the Sabbath in a very legalistic, old covenant sense! That's why most other Christians reject Adventism

Robert.... If you were to openly rebel against God by saying ... "Oh I know that you want me to keep the Sabbath God ... but I am saved ... so I just don't care. I want to do what I want"

Now if that was said then there might be trouble with your salvation. But the point is that no one can outwardly judge that.

Here's what I said a few posts ago:

"So under the NC I find no reason, as recorded in the law, for Sabbath observance."

I do recognize the Sabbath, but not from the law. It is tied to the gospel. But to understand the Sabbath from my understanding one really needs to understand circumcision because there are similarities between the two.

Rob

Let's see. Did circumcision have its origin at creation? Was circumcision of the flesh meant to be eternal? Is it a comand to be kept today?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Blameless in performance, or blameless in faith? That’s the issue. Righteousness, whether imputed or imparted, is God’s part.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! to that. If you really believe the above statement, why then have you been calling those of us who are calling for the imparted righteousness of Christ and not just the imputed righteousness as legalists?

Quote:

My part, from beginning to end, is faith.

Wow!!! I'd say AMEN, AMEN, AMEN to that again!!! I never thought I'd see the day that we'd have two things in a row to agree on!!!

Quote:

God is saying to Abraham, “Your faith has not been matured, it has not yet reached perfection. I want you to be perfect in your faith.”

Abraham said, “What must I do to be perfect?”

Where did Abraham ever asked that question? According to Paul in Rom 4, Abraham received the sign of circumcision as "a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised." And Moses, who authored the Law, said that Abraham "believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." Gen 15:6 NKJ. So he already believed that he was righteous/perfect/blameless by faith. So why would he ask, "What must I do to be perfect?" You won't find him asking that question my friend. That scenario is your own invention!

Gerry

[Robert]

Legalism to be saved by knowing Jesus? Wow! How else can one get saved?

"You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free!"

Jesus said, "“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Nothing about the law because the law isn't truth.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

John' date=' do you know?[/quote']

Deja vu, Robert. Remember "the Law" thread? I have very clear memories of discussing this very thing before with you on several different occasions.

And I have clear memories that you didn't do a good job defending your position!

[Robert]

Quote:

I am just following Christ. When the self-righteous came at Him in gave them law. Here's a perfect example:

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

[color:blue]

And can you find one verse that promises life to the one who practises sin?

So there's no sin in your life that you are practicing? What about your love of self? Oh, yeah...that's right - it ain't sin according to you, but what IF you are wrong?

Personally I think you are dead wrong. You fail to take into account Christ's selfless life. I've gave you the quotes, both Bible and EGW, but you still refuse to accept that self-love is the essence of all sin.

Now again what if you are wrong? That means you are practicing sin and therefore you are lost. I'm not saying this, your own theology is....

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Again, under the NC faith fulfills the first half of the moral law under grace. Look at 1 John 3:23

"And this is His commandment,

1] that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ,

2] and love one another...."

In Gal 5:14 Paul states that, "the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” He didn't say the whole law is fulfilled when you keep all ten.

Again, that's because under grace faith takes place of the first four commandments. We are no longer "under the law" - we are under grace and any reflection of "agape" in the life of the believer will be in harmony with the last six commandments of the moral law.

Rob

According to the Apostle James, you break one of the 10, you've broken them ALL!!! Soooooo, to be considered as keeping the other 6, you have to be keeping the first four as well, or vice versa.

Gerry

That's no proof, Gerry. Look at James' quote:

James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

Nothing in the context of the first, four commandments....Nothing! Faith fulfills the first four under the NC,NT.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Actully you need to read Paul just as it reads. [/quote']

You claim that a believer is guilty of selfishness by owning things, which you consider to be sin. Gerry

No, in heaven you will have the use and joy of many things, but you won't obtain them through "self-seeking". That's the difference!

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

How many times per day does Gerry have himself in mind?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here's what I said a few posts ago:

"So under the NC I find no reason, as recorded in the law, for Sabbath observance."

I do recognize the Sabbath, but not from the law. It is tied to the gospel. But to understand the Sabbath from my understanding one really needs to understand circumcision because there are similarities between the two.

Rob [/quote']

Was circumcision of the flesh meant to be eternal? Is it a command to be kept today?

Gerry

Here's what the first book of "the book of the law" states:

Genesis 17:13 ...thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 “But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

And please don't forget the following:

“Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” [Gal 3:10/Deuteronomy 27:26]

So you tell me, Gerry?

[Robert]

So why would he [Abraham] ask, "What must I do to be perfect?" You won't find him asking that question my friend. That scenario is your own invention!

Gerry

Perfect means mature...mature in his faith. You see Abraham had a subtle legalistic moment....His faith was partially in the Lord and partially in himself. How so? He tried to help God produce the son of promise. The result? Ishmael!

So God waited until both him and Sarah were reproductively dead and then He did as He promised. Issac was all His work.

And that's how circumcision came about. It was a sign of the righteousness that he already had by faith. It was a sign to have no confidence in human performance (in this case, procreation). Hence the removal of the foreskin.

The Sabbath is very similar, except that it doesn't have to to with procreation - it has to do with redemption.

[Robert]

The Sabbath is very similar, except that it doesn't have to to with procreation - it has to do with redemption.

And you find out about this in Hebrews chapter 4.

Basically it states that if you have "entered God's rest" (i.e., if you have accepted the gospel) you will rest as God rested from His perfect and complete redemption "in Christ Jesus"!

What day did Christ die? It was just shortly before the Sabbath came in. What day did God rest from His work of redemption "in Christ?" Right, the 7th day.

There's no link to the law here. It's all linked to the gospel. In other words if you believe that "in Christ Jesus" you have salvation full and complete, then as a sign of this truth you should rest as God rested.

[Robert]

Hebrews 4:9 "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God [context: the Jews]; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest [accepts the gospel -see verses 1-3] also rests from his own work, just as God did from his."