'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Deja vu, Robert. Remember "the Law" thread? I have very clear memories of discussing this very thing before with you on several different occasions. [/quote']

Quote:

And I have clear memories that you didn't do a good job defending your position!

For me, these discussions are not about winning a debate but about learning from each other, but I saw long ago that you view it as a debate to be won or lost. I think of them as much more like an informal talk between friends where people respectfully exchange ideas, information and viewpoints.

[Robert]

Please remember that according to "the book of the law" circumcision was commanded just as the Sabbath was commanded in the 2nd book of the law (Exodus 20:11).

Now here's what the Judaizers demanded. It's found in Acts 15:1 & 5:

15:1 And some men [i.e., Judaizers] came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ... 5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed [i.e., who had accepted Christianity] , stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses [i.e., the book of the law - the 1st, 5 books of the OT].

You see the Judaizers taught that it's not enough to accept Jesus Christ - you must keep the law. You must be circumcised - you must keep the whole law or you cannot be saved. This heresy, however, was completely opposite to why Abraham was circumcised. Instead of obeying God's command of circumcision to be saved - Abraham was circumcised as an outward sign to have no confidence in human achievement - human performance.

Sadly many SDA teach the same thing as the Judaizers. It's not enough to accept Christ by faith, you must do something to be saved. You must especially keep the 4th commandment - the Sabbath.

The problem is that keeping the Sabbath in order to be saved is an exercise in the flesh - it's a product of human achievement and performance - it's a form of boasting! It denies the fundamental truth of the gospel.

But the true Adventist will not preach Sabbath or else (i.e., you better obey)! Instead he will outwardly acknowledge the Sabbath as a sign of redemption.

Just as Abraham already stood justified while uncircumcised, Christians stand justified by faith alone in the doing and dying of Christ. Our Sabbath keeping does not justify us rather it is a sign for those who believe that "in Christ Jesus" they have salvation full and complete because God eternally rested from His work of redemption realized "in Christ" that Sabbath some 2000 years ago.

Robert

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Legalism to be saved by knowing Jesus? Wow! How else can one get saved?

"You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free!"

Jesus said, "“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Nothing about the law because the law isn't truth.

That's YOUR opinion. However, it is WRITTEN:

"And Your law is truth." Ps 119:142 NKJ

"And all Your commandments are truth." Ps 119:151 NKJ.

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Jesus said, "“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." Nothing about the law because the law isn't truth. [/quote']

That's YOUR opinion. However, it is WRITTEN:

"And Your law is truth." Ps 119:142 NKJ

"And all Your commandments are truth." Ps 119:151 NKJ.

Gerry

You are absolutely right Gerry! In fact that Bible says, "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination."

Do you know what the law says to you? Let me help you:

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one....19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the works of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

You made my point!

Thanks,

Rob

[Gerr]

Please remember that according to "the book of the law" circumcision was commanded just as the Sabbath was commanded in the 2nd book of the law (Exodus 20:11).

Now here's what the Judaizers demanded. It's found in Acts 15:1 & 5:

15:1 And some men [i.e., Judaizers] came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ... 5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed [i.e., who had accepted Christianity] , stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses [i.e., the book of the law - the 1st, 5 books of the OT].

You see the Judaizers taught that it's not enough to accept Jesus Christ - you must keep the law. You must be circumcised - you must keep the whole law or you cannot be saved. This heresy, however, was completely opposite to why Abraham was circumcised. Instead of obeying God's command of circumcision to be saved - Abraham was circumcised as an outward sign to have no confidence in human achievement - human performance.

Sadly many SDA teach the same thing as the Judaizers. It's not enough to accept Christ by faith, you must do something to be saved. You must especially keep the 4th commandment - the Sabbath.

The problem is that keeping the Sabbath in order to be saved is an exercise in the flesh - it's a product of human achievement and performance - it's a form of boasting! It denies the fundamental truth of the gospel.

But the true Adventist will not preach Sabbath or else (i.e., you better obey)! Instead he will outwardly acknowledge the Sabbath as a sign of redemption.

Just as Abraham already stood justified while uncircumcised, Christians stand justified by faith alone in the doing and dying of Christ. Our Sabbath keeping does not justify us rather it is a sign for those who believe that "in Christ Jesus" they have salvation full and complete because God eternally rested from His work of redemption realized "in Christ" that Sabbath some 2000 years ago.

Robert

Why do you call SDAs Judaizers for teaching that the 4th commandment should be kept just like the other nine? Yet you don't call the rest of Christendom as Judaizers for insisting that Christians keep the other 9?

BTW, it is disingenuous to claim that SDAs require the keeping of the law in order to be saved. Only already saved people in whom the Spirit dwells keep the law from the heart.

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Please remember that according to "the book of the law" circumcision was commanded just as the Sabbath was commanded in the 2nd book of the law (Exodus 20:11).

Now here's what the Judaizers demanded. It's found in Acts 15:1 & 5:

15:1 And some men [i.e., Judaizers] came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ... 5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed [i.e., who had accepted Christianity] , stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses [i.e., the book of the law - the 1st, 5 books of the OT].

You see the Judaizers taught that it's not enough to accept Jesus Christ - you must keep the law. You must be circumcised - you must keep the whole law or you cannot be saved. This heresy, however, was completely opposite to why Abraham was circumcised. Instead of obeying God's command of circumcision to be saved - Abraham was circumcised as an outward sign to have no confidence in human achievement - human performance.

Sadly many SDA teach the same thing as the Judaizers. It's not enough to accept Christ by faith, you must do something to be saved. You must especially keep the 4th commandment - the Sabbath.

The problem is that keeping the Sabbath in order to be saved is an exercise in the flesh - it's a product of human achievement and performance - it's a form of boasting! It denies the fundamental truth of the gospel.

But the true Adventist will not preach Sabbath or else (i.e., you better obey)! Instead he will outwardly acknowledge the Sabbath as a sign of redemption.

Just as Abraham already stood justified while uncircumcised, Christians stand justified by faith alone in the doing and dying of Christ. Our Sabbath keeping does not justify us rather it is a sign for those who believe that "in Christ Jesus" they have salvation full and complete because God eternally rested from His work of redemption realized "in Christ" that Sabbath some 2000 years ago.

Robert

Why do you call SDAs Judaizers for teaching that the 4th commandment should be kept .....

Some SDA...not all! You, yes, but more like a modern day Gentile, Judaizer!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Here's what the first book of "the book of the law" states:

Genesis 17:13 ...thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 “But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

And please don't forget the following:

“Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” [Gal 3:10/Deuteronomy 27:26]

So you tell me, Gerry?

The NT says the same thing, only in slightly different words: "The wages of sin is death!"

The same Paul who said that said this too: "For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Eph 5:5

Soooo, I'm still waiting for that silver/golden verse that gives a practicing law-breaker any comfort/assurance that he/she has eternal life.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Here's what the first book of "the book of the law" states:

Genesis 17:13 ...thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 “But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

And please don't forget the following:

“Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” [Gal 3:10/Deuteronomy 27:26]

So you tell me, Gerry?

Do you believe that the wicked will burn forever and ever?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Sabbath is very similar, except that it doesn't have to to with procreation - it has to do with redemption.

And you find out about this in Hebrews chapter 4.

Basically it states that if you have "entered God's rest" (i.e., if you have accepted the gospel) you will rest as God rested from His perfect and complete redemption "in Christ Jesus"!

What day did Christ die? It was just shortly before the Sabbath came in. What day did God rest from His work of redemption "in Christ?" Right, the 7th day.

There's no link to the law here. It's all linked to the gospel. In other words if you believe that "in Christ Jesus" you have salvation full and complete, then as a sign of this truth you should rest as God rested.

It's really interesting to see what hoops antinomians go through to try to escape the law. It is clear from Ex 20 & 31 that the Sabbath commemorates for His original creation & His redemptive act.

"...the great sin of the Christian world would be their rejection of the law of God, the foundation of His government in heaven and earth." GC 22

"Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple." Rev 11:19 NKJ

"After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." Rev 15:5 NKJ

What is in the ark? What is the testimony? God's 10c are enshrined in the most holy place of God's dwelling place. Why is there so much contention about His law especially the Sabbath? Because the law is the very foundation of His gov't, and the Sabbath is the sign of His authority to reign over His creation! No wonder the devil has made it his special target!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Should I go ahead with the baptism at this point?

Yes. Why not. Were you under the impression that before baptism he was to remove all sin from his life ... or just hide them?

Quote:

Should I say anything to him about what he is doing?

No. I think he knows what he is doing. But, if you doubt it .... I would suggest you include a sermon on drug use just in case he is not aware.

Quote:

Or should I just ignore what I see and assume that the Lord will take care of it?

God will take care of what? That he is a sinner? Yes, it IS the job of God to take care of sin in our lives .... for if WE take care of it ... it would be worthless. Only the works that Christ does IN us are of any value. Those that I do on my own power are of little value to God.

So YES, God WILL take care of our sins as He sees fit and in HIS time frame. If YOU approach him personally ... you would be rushing God and the Holy Spirit. Just preach the sermon rather than private rebuke.

[Woody]

Quote:

And can you find one verse that promises life to the one who practises sin? Feel free to use the OT or NT, OC or NC.

Can you find one saved person who does NOT practice sin? Are you one who does not practice sin? Speaking for myself ... I practice sin. But I am saved in my sin.

[Woody]

Quote:

According to the Apostle James, you break one of the 10, you've broken them ALL!!! Soooooo, to be considered as keeping the other 6, you have to be keeping the first four as well, or vice versa.

This is a good point Gerry. We are all equally guilty of practicing sin.

[John317]

Quote:

Should I go ahead with the baptism at this point?

Yes. Why not. Were you under the impression that before baptism he was to remove all sin from his life ... or just hide them?

Quote:

Should I say anything to him about what he is doing?

No. I think he knows what he is doing. But, if you doubt it .... I would suggest you include a sermon on drug use just in case he is not aware.

Quote:

Or should I just ignore what I see and assume that the Lord will take care of it?

God will take care of what? That he is a sinner? Yes, it IS the job of God to take care of sin in our lives .... for if WE take care of it ... it would be worthless. Only the works that Christ does IN us are of any value. Those that I do on my own power are of little value to God.

So YES, God WILL take care of our sins as He sees fit and in HIS time frame. If YOU approach him personally ... you would be rushing God and the Holy Spirit. Just preach the sermon rather than private rebuke.

Could you please ask your pastor if he/she agrees with you?

What you are suggesting here is that a pastor baptize anyone irrespective of whether the candidate shows that they are ready to be baptized and understands what it means to be buried with Christ and to rise in newness of life.

I will take the counsel of the prophet of God over any merely human opinion:

"The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be understood whether those who profess to be converted are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Adventists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord's side to come out from the world and be separate and touch not the unclean thing. When they give evidence that they fully understand their position, they are to be accepted. But when they show that they are following the customs and fashions and sentiments of the world, they are to be faithfully dealt with. If they feel no burden to change their course of action, they should not be retained as members of the church. The Lord wants those who compose His church to be true, faithful stewards of the grace of Christ." Testimonies To Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 128.

The time came, sometime in the third century in the history of the church, when it began to baptize the unconverted, and what was the result? A great spiritual and doctrinal falling away, the very apostasy of which the apostle Paul and John predicted through the Holy Spirit.

That is exactly what Satan would love to see happen all over again, this time in the Remnant church that was raised up to give God's last day message. It would result in there being little or no difference between the church and the world. The world would be brought right into the church, and instead of the church converting the world, the world would be converting the church.

[John317]

Quote:

And can you find one verse that promises life to the one who practises sin? Feel free to use the OT or NT, OC or NC.

Can you find one saved person who does NOT practice sin? Are you one who does not practice sin? Speaking for myself ... I practice sin. But I am saved in my sin.

Read 1 John 3: 1-10. Jesus did not come to save us in our sins. It teaches that he came to save us "from our sin," not in it. Let him who names the name of Jesus forsake sin and iniquity, not continue on in it. Shall we continue in sin? God forbid! How can we who have died with Christ continue in sin, that is, go on practicing sin?

When I came to Christ, it is true that I was practicing sin. I lived for sin. I didn't want anything but sin. I went to the bars and to the x-rated adult theaters as often as possible and lived sometimes all night in those "fun-filled booths" and other places. But when the Holy Spirit gave me a desire for God and for righteousness, I gave those up gladly and now I do not practice those wicked sins that helped put my Savior on the cross. So in a real sense he did save me while I was "in sin," but He didn't do that so that I would go on living in sin. He got me out of the gutter so I can live a life that is pleasing to Him, no longer using foul language and doing all those other sins that were destroying me and hurting Him. I can't imagine thinking that I can go on practicing sin and still be saved. Even if I could, I wouldn't WANT to go back to practicing sin. That would make as much sense to me as a freed slave wanting to get back into his chains.

[Robert]

Please remember that according to "the book of the law" circumcision was commanded just as the Sabbath was commanded in the 2nd book of the law (Exodus 20:11).

Now here's what the Judaizers demanded. It's found in Acts 15:1 & 5:

15:1 And some men [i.e., Judaizers] came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” ... 5 But certain ones of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed [i.e., who had accepted Christianity] , stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses [i.e., the book of the law - the 1st, 5 books of the OT].

You see the Judaizers taught that it's not enough to accept Jesus Christ - you must keep the law. You must be circumcised - you must keep the whole law or you cannot be saved. This heresy, however, was completely opposite to why Abraham was circumcised. Instead of obeying God's command of circumcision to be saved - Abraham was circumcised as an outward sign to have no confidence in human achievement - human performance.

Sadly many SDA teach the same thing as the Judaizers. It's not enough to accept Christ by faith, you must do something to be saved. You must especially keep the 4th commandment - the Sabbath.

The problem is that keeping the Sabbath in order to be saved is an exercise in the flesh - it's a product of human achievement and performance - it's a form of boasting! It denies the fundamental truth of the gospel.

But the true Adventist will not preach Sabbath or else (i.e., you better obey)! Instead he will outwardly acknowledge the Sabbath as a sign of redemption.

Just as Abraham already stood justified while uncircumcised, Christians stand justified by faith alone in the doing and dying of Christ. Our Sabbath keeping does not justify us rather it is a sign for those who believe that "in Christ Jesus" they have salvation full and complete because God eternally rested from His work of redemption realized "in Christ" that Sabbath some 2000 years ago.

Robert

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

And you find out about this in Hebrews chapter 4.

Basically it states that if you have "entered God's rest" (i.e., if you have accepted the gospel) you will rest as God rested from His perfect and complete redemption "in Christ Jesus"!

What day did Christ die? It was just shortly before the Sabbath came in. What day did God rest from His work of redemption "in Christ?" Right, the 7th day.

There's no link to the law here. It's all linked to the gospel. In other words if you believe that "in Christ Jesus" you have salvation full and complete, then as a sign of this truth you should rest as God rested.

[/quote']

It's really interesting to see what hoops antinomians go through to try to escape the law. It is clear from Ex 20 & 31 that the Sabbath commemorates for His original creation & His redemptive act.

Show me, using the law, where it links God's redemptive act "in Christ" to the law [see Hebrews 4]. It just isn't there!

[John317]

...Sadly many SDA teach the same thing as the Judaizers. It's not enough to accept Christ by faith, you must do something to be saved. You must especially keep the 4th commandment - the Sabbath....

OK, Robert, that means that I don't need to keep any of the other commandments either, so if I choose to, I can neglect to keep any of them. If it is wrong to think that we need to keep the 4th commandment, then it is wrong to think we need to keep any commandment, including the commandment to believe upon Jesus or to have love for anyone. Those are all works of the law as well. Works of the law are any works I do to obey God's will.

We dare not think that we should obey God because to do so is legalism and falling away from grace.

Anything beyond accepting Christ by faith, according to your view, is legalism. So I refuse to do anything beyond that. I will go on living pretty much the way I was before saying I accepted Christ, because I don't want it said that I am trying to earn my way to heaven. And just to prove that I am not trying to earn salvation, I will show my freedom from the law by going to church on Sunday and working on Saturday. I will glorify His name for my freedom from that oppressive Jewish law.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

...Sadly many SDA teach the same thing as the Judaizers. It's not enough to accept Christ by faith, you must do something to be saved. You must especially keep the 4th commandment - the Sabbath....

If it is wrong to think that we need to keep the 4th commandment

The 4th commandment is meaningless because it no longer points to a perfect and sinless creation. The only reason for Sabbath observance is found in Hebrews chapter 4. Here the Sabbath is linked to the gospel, not the law.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

If it is wrong to think that we need to keep the 4th commandment

[/quote']

The 4th commandment is meaningless because it no longer points to a perfect and sinless creation. The only reason for Sabbath observance is found in Hebrews chapter 4. Here the Sabbath is linked to the gospel, not the law.

Why don't you deal with my post instead of only dealing with one small part of a sentence in the post?

1) At what historical point did the 4th commandment become meaningless?

2) What is in the ark of the covenant in heaven that John saw?

3) The Bible and Ellen White both say that the law of God is eternal as God Himself is eternal. That includes the Sabbath commandment.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Why do you call SDAs Judaizers for teaching that the 4th commandment should be kept .....

Some SDA...not all! You, yes, but more like a modern day Gentile, Judaizer!

If upholding the 10c as standards for Christian living because I love the Lord is Judaizing, then I will proudly wear the mantle.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

If it is wrong to think that we need to keep the 4th commandment

The 4th commandment is meaningless because it no longer points to a perfect and sinless creation.[/quote']

Is that pope Robert speaking ex cathedra? But again, where is your authority for such a doctrine? I don't find anywhere in the Bible that God made such a declaration! You can repeat it a million x, but it still would not make it so!

Quote:

The only reason for Sabbath observance is found in Hebrews chapter 4. Here the Sabbath is linked to the gospel, not the law.

Ex 20:8-11 says it's a sign of creation & deliverance; Ex 31:12-17 reinforces it. You have no Scriptural grounds for declaring it as a meaningless reminder of God's once perfect creation. Therefore, such man-made invention carries not one iota of relevance.

Gerry

[Woody]

Being converted does not mean that you are without sin or even fully understand what things ARE sin. So, yes. Baptize them WITH this sin and then they shall receive a special power from the Holy Spirit to overcome sin and to even know what sin is.

Baptism gives you actually more ability to overcome sin. Let's not put the cart before the horse.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Show me, using the law, where it links God's redemptive act "in Christ" to the law [see Hebrews 4]. It just isn't there!

If you unstop your ears and open your eyes, here it is:

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."...."Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy....FOR/BECAUSE in 6 days the LORD made... Ex 20:2, 8,11 NKJ. THAT'S DELIVERANCE!!! THAT'S REDEMPTION!!! Connected to the law!

"Speak also to the children of Israel, saying:

"Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a PERPETUAL covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel FOREVER; for in 6 days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the 7th day He rested and was refreshed." Ex 31:13-18 NKJ.

There you have it. Two exodus references that both link the Sabbath as a sign both to God's perfect creation and redemption to the law.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Just as Abraham already stood justified while uncircumcised, Christians stand justified by faith alone in the doing and dying of Christ. Our Sabbath keeping does not justify us rather it is a sign for those who believe that "in Christ Jesus" they have salvation full and complete because God eternally rested from His work of redemption realized "in Christ" that Sabbath some 2000 years ago.

Robert

OK, I'll second that. But let me ask you. Will you or any believer remain justified if you go back to living the same old life?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Just as Abraham already stood justified while uncircumcised, Christians stand justified by faith alone in the doing and dying of Christ. Our Sabbath keeping does not justify us rather it is a sign for those who believe that "in Christ Jesus" they have salvation full and complete because God eternally rested from His work of redemption realized "in Christ" that Sabbath some 2000 years ago.

Robert

OK, I'll second that. But let me ask you. Will you or any believer remain justified if you go back to living the same old life?

Gerry

It depends upon if you feel you are saved by what you do or who you know.

I can't know the heart and struggles of someone who might return to Sunday worship. Perhaps they became convinced through Bible study. Perhaps they had to work Sabbath in order to feed their family. Perhaps they became weak. Perhaps they are no longer sinless due to pain and disability and/or discouragement or Depression. There are just too many possibilities to explore. This just points out that we can't look to works in order to give heed to our addiction to judge.

In the end ... we are not judged by our works but we are judged by the works of Jesus with HIS doing and dying.