Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: The Sabbath is not the basis of our salvation. Neither is any obedience to any law whatsoever the basis or foundation of salvation. What did Ellen White have to say? .... Quote: “To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor.” (4T 28) Quote: "Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law.""He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty." {RH, May 7, 1901 par. 9} Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: Christ picked # 2. He loved His neighbor (His enemies) as Himself, right? Tell me, where was Christ's self-love? Did He eat? Sleep? Bathe? Buy any clothes? Live in a home? Quote: Compared to His love you and I are a wretched sinners! That we can agree on. But thank God, those in whom He & His Spirit dwell, are being transformed into His likeness! That is the promise of the Gospel! Gerry Quote
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: Did He eat? Sleep? Bathe? Buy any clothes? Live in a home? What does sleeping on the ground have to do with anything? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: The Sabbath is not the basis of our salvation. Neither is any obedience to any law whatsoever the basis or foundation of salvation. What did Ellen White have to say? .... Quote: “To obey the commandments of God is the only way to obtain His favor.” (4T 28) Quote: "Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law.""He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty." {RH, May 7, 1901 par. 9} Oh king of the snippets, are you trying to prove that EGW is teaching salvation by works? Or shall we go back to your sources to see how you have taken them out of context? Gerry Quote
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Just responding to John317's post. But jump on board if you feel that she didn't mean what she said. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: Did He eat? Sleep? Bathe? Buy any clothes? Live in a home? What does sleeping on the ground have to do with anything? "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 NKJ. Gerry Quote
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: Sin - the love of self - will tell you, "you're not that bad - in fact your a good person - you don't need Jesus. And since everyone is a lover of self per your definition, we are all practicing sin, right? Soooooo, the only way that heaven could be populated would be to admit people who are openly practicing sin, right? Anything less would make heaven empty, right? Gerry Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Quote: Show me, using the law, where it links God's redemptive act "in Christ" to the law [see Hebrews 4]. It just isn't there! "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Sorry, that's not the 4th command. Quote: ...."Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy....FOR/BECAUSE in 6 days the LORD made... Ex 20:2, 8,11 NKJ. THAT'S DELIVERANCE!!! THAT'S REDEMPTION!!! Connected to the law! No, that's just creation. How did you become a doctor? I'm glad you retired! Quote: "Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a PERPETUAL covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel FOREVER; for in 6 days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the 7th day He rested and was refreshed." Ex 31:13-18 NKJ. Gerry Everlasting covenant with who? The children of Israel. Of course they failed at that covenant and it was made void. If you study Ex 34, you will find that the covenant was renewed, and the terms remained the same - the Ten Commandments! Gerry Quote
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: OK, I'll second that. But let me ask you. Will you or any believer remain justified if you go back to living the same old life? Praise God .... 70 X 7 Quote: Venden says, “we can conclude that it is possible to have a relationship with God going on and to have a known sin going on in your life at the same time.” (How Jesus Treated People. p. 46.) Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Quote: Sin - the love of self - will tell you, "you're not that bad - in fact your a good person - you don't need Jesus. And since everyone is a lover of self per your definition, we are all practicing sin, right? Soooooo, the only way that heaven could be populated would be to admit people who are openly practicing sin, right? Anything less would make heaven empty, right? Gerry Those who practice sin will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the second coming. No one will then practice sin. That practice will be stopped when we SEE HIS FACE at the second coming because that is when we are changed. Quote: 1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." We get glimpses of Him now here on earth. But it is not until we SEE HIS FACE that we really understand and see Him as He is so that we are fully changed. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Paul isn't speaking of disobedience to the law....He is speaking of the sin of unbelief. Quote Hebrews 4: 6 and 11. You will see that unbelief and disobedience to God are the same thing. The sin of unbelief is sin. It is the rejection of the gospel. The same thing can be found in Hebrews chapter 10. Quote
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Or did you mean by quoting, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself", none of us are doing doing it since by your definition owning anything is selfishness and therefore a practice of sin, that God will let us all in in spite of practicing sin? Is that your answer?Gerry Individually believers grow, but growth is not perfection. Perfection is Christ's life. Here we fall short. I'm sorry you are unable to comprehend this... Quote
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: "But those who have the least sense of the perfection of Jesus, those whose eyes are least directed to Him, are the ones who make the strongest claim to perfection." FW 54 Bingo! Quote
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Sorry...it doesn't say that! So you can't "reasonable assume". You can be unreasonable and you are.... So according to your reasoning, the practice of violating the 6th (murder), the 7th (adultery & fornication), the 2nd (idolatry), can exclude one from heaven, but since the practice of violating the 3rd, 4th, the 5th, 8th 9th & 10th are excused because they are not expressly mentioned? Gerry Practice means, 1] First you are convicted of God's will and 2] You refuse to acknowledge your sin to Christ. So it is not doing sins (plural) that causes one to be lost, it is sin - the rejection of Christ our righteousness. Hence the only sin (singular) that can cause one to forfeit heaven is self-righteousness. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: The Sabbath is not the basis of our salvation. Neither is any obedience to any law whatsoever the basis or foundation of salvation. Ellen White seems to make a link ... Quote: "Then I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, 'Thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting.' I asked who this company were. The angel said, 'these are they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up.'" Ellen G. White, Early Writings, p. 37 Let's talk about that issue. Does what Ellen White say there mean that the Sabbath is the basis of our salvation? How do you define "basis of our salvation"? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Compared to His love you and I are a wretched sinners! That we can agree on. But thank God, those in whom He & His Spirit dwell, are being transformed into His likeness! That is the promise of the Gospel! Are you perfectly reflecting God's agape now? If not when in the future? You are a legalist because you are depending on what God does in you (if it's God and not your own flesh) for your ticket to heaven. Quote
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: Did He eat? Sleep? Bathe? Buy any clothes? Live in a home? What does sleeping on the ground have to do with anything? "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 NKJ. Gerry I know many Christians who are not rich. In fact some Christians live in poverty. So what about them? Gerry...you're just one of those prosperity nuts. You can glory in your flesh and say God's blessing me - look at all my goodies. You sound like the rich young ruler and you know what Christ told him pertaining to perfection. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: "But those who have the least sense of the perfection of Jesus, those whose eyes are least directed to Him, are the ones who make the strongest claim to perfection." FW 54 This is true. But your quoting it here makes me think you believe that you hear either me or Gerry saying we are perfect, and you have to know that is not true. What have we said that makes you think either of us is making the claim that we are "perfect" ? You have to realize that there are different ways of using the word "perfect". The Bible uses it in terms of spiritual maturity. There are a number of people whom the Bible says were "perfect." And there are other places in Ellen White's writings that call us to "perfection," just as the Bible does. It seems to me that you may be confusing the way the word is used. But no one is using it in the sense that we have no more growing to do or that we have "arrived" or that we are without sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: You are a legalist because you are depending on what God does in you (if it's God and not your own flesh) for your ticket to heaven. I've never heard it put this way but I have to agree. IF we depend upon anything else other than what JESUS did ON this earth .... then we are legalists depending upon works of the law to get us to heaven. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Quote Hebrews 4: 6 and 11. You will see that unbelief and disobedience to God are the same thing. The sin of unbelief is sin. It is the rejection of the gospel. The same thing can be found in Hebrews chapter 10. What verse is that in chapter 10? Gerry Quote
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: "But those who have the least sense of the perfection of Jesus, those whose eyes are least directed to Him, are the ones who make the strongest claim to perfection." FW 54 This is true. But your quoting it here makes me think you believe that you hear either me or Gerry saying we are perfect, and you have to know that is not true. What have we said that makes you think either of us is making the claim that we are "perfect" ? You have to realize that there are different ways of using the word "perfect". The Bible uses it in terms of spiritual maturity. There are a number of people whom the Bible says were "perfect." And there are other places in Ellen White's writings that call us to "perfection," just as the Bible does. It seems to me that you may be confusing the way the word is used. But no one is using it in the sense that we have no more growing to do or that we have "arrived" or that we are without sin. Thanks John for sharing that with me. I am sorry you felt it might be aimed at you or Gerry. I can honestly say it was not. It was intended for the topic of perfection which was brought up. And it was intended in a general way. So, if anyone was offended ... I apologize. But now that you bring it up. The topic of perfection and what you and Gerry believe .... is very confusing to me. Just when I think I have you pegged ... I am proven wrong. So, to say that I know enough to point anything towards you two would be wrong. I do have to admit that the general tone of what I hear from you two does bring me concern though. Anyway .... I do enjoy reading the diversity of emphasis on this issue. I think it is healthy to have and to share differences. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ' date=' that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich." 2 Cor 8:9 NKJ. Gerry I know many Christians who are not rich. In fact some Christians live in poverty. So what about them?[/quote'] They're waiting for you to give them you possessions! Quote: Gerry...you're just one of those prosperity nuts. You can glory in your flesh and say God's blessing me - look at all my goodies. You sound like the rich young ruler and you know what Christ told him pertaining to perfection. Well, can't you see why we attract each other? You are a poverty nut [but clinging to your possessions] and I'm a prosperity nut [but really don't know if my retirement will be enough]? Gerry Quote
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert I know many Christians who are not rich. In fact some Christians live in poverty. So what about them?[/quote'] They're waiting for you to give them you possessions! Quote: Gerry...you're just one of those prosperity nuts. You can glory in your flesh and say God's blessing me - look at all my goodies. You sound like the rich young ruler and you know what Christ told him pertaining to perfection. Well, can't you see why we attract each other? You are a poverty nut [but clinging to your possessions] and I'm a prosperity nut [but really don't know if my retirement will be enough]? Gerry Give it ALL to Jesus Gerry. Give it ALL to Jesus. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Or did you mean by quoting, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself", none of us are doing doing it since by your definition owning anything is selfishness and therefore a practice of sin, that God will let us all in in spite of practicing sin? Is that your answer?Gerry Individually believers grow, but growth is not perfection. Perfection is Christ's life. Here we fall short. I'm sorry you are unable to comprehend this... But the Bible doesn't use it that way. The Bible sometimes uses it as a way of describing our growth and experience. For instance, when a baby is doing and is being all the things it is supposed to do or be at a certain stage, we say that it is a perfect baby. Of course, if an adult was doing all that baby is doing, he wouldn't be perfect; he would be immature, perhaps even severely retarded. But no one expects a baby to be an adult. That is the same with the Bible's use of "perfection" when the Bible says we are to "go on to perfection." It means to "go on to spiritual maturity." It doesn't mean being absolutely sinless. If a Christian is completely devoted to God and is living up to all the knowledge of the truth that he knows about, then at that stage in his Christian experience, in the Biblical sense, he is perfect, or mature. That doesn't mean he has no more growing or changing to do or that he is without sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Posted April 3, 2008 ...Thanks John for sharing that with me. I am sorry you felt it might be aimed at you or Gerry. I can honestly say it was not. It was intended for the topic of perfection which was brought up. And it was intended in a general way. So, if anyone was offended ... I apologize. Whew! I'm relieved. Thank you! That's a lot of pressure to carry around, people expecting you to be perfect! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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